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Thread: Streetcar

  1. #726

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Question for everybody: the Urban Land Institute study suggests Core to Shore will take 50 years to develop. Should this area be reserved for future expansion of the system? Where should development be prioritized - in Core to Shore or the empty gaps in Deep Deuce/Flat Iron, MidTown and the Arts District?
    Steve,

    The answer is obviously "no." We should build the system in phases as Core to Shore develops. "Sweetheart deals" for future developers should not drive decisions toward the routes, nor should warm fuzzy wishes about connecting the river to downtown.

    The fact is, the river is a long way from downtown, and we shouldn't waste valuable track -- yet -- to get there.

    I really, really like Skywest's route ideas. Big time. To add on, SkyWest, I think your route suggestion is the best I've seen yet.

  2. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses


    Here's we'll give it the official treatment lol..a harsh vetting:

    1. Why does the initial route only touch Deep Deuce through 4th?
    2. Why is there a route along EKG? Did COTPA determine there are pedestrians and businesses there to serve?
    3. What is the usefulness of the Lincoln/8th extension in the initial phase..who will get on at 8th?
    4. Is this streetcar system sort of confirming that the fix is in regarding convention center location?
    5. Initial route doesn't include Midtown, Arts District, and other activity hubs. Why not?

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________
    I don't know if anyone remembers one of the questions I asked, but I was trying to get at two important points. The first was that as Mike McAnelly was talking about the strategic possibilities of linking COTPA parking structures, that just started ringing sirens in my head and it does somewhat explain why we might be looking at a system that we can't understand from an average person's perspective. It might be interesting to mark each of COTPA's parking facilities on this map.

    Also, we've been told to not expect streetcar anytime soon..AND I've been against a phased streetcar system, but what if a compromise could be reached by doing the first two or three miles as the FIRST MAPS 3 project? That's a possibility nobody has discussed because it really has been assumed that you build it all at once. I think if phasing can get the system up and running sooner than complete build-out then that is something that might have distinct possibilities. It's a creative compromise that may allow the city to consecutively begin on streetcar and Core 2 Shore. Therefor real downtown is happy, and Mayor Mick's fantasy world is happy, too.

    After the meeting I also asked Mike what he thought about the possibility of integrating a streetcar line into a pedestrian mall. Might as well if COTPA is going to include a route on a less significant street such as Harvey or Hudson. I know it would further disrupt the vehicular flow through downtown but ideally we no longer have to rely on vehicles to get across downtown anyway. If they're going to have a route down some street that doesn't matter (ie not Broadway or Walker) then might as well go with a whole different concept altogether. Harvey and Hudson need a LOT of infill in order to come off as viable pedestrian environments..maybe a pedestrian transit mall would be a concept worth pursuing to achieve that.

  3. #728

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post

    Here's we'll give it the official treatment lol..a harsh vetting:

    1. Why does the initial route only touch Deep Deuce through 4th?
    2. Why is there a route along EKG? Did COTPA determine there are pedestrians and businesses there to serve?
    3. What is the usefulness of the Lincoln/8th extension in the initial phase..who will get on at 8th?
    4. Is this streetcar system sort of confirming that the fix is in regarding convention center location?
    5. Initial route doesn't include Midtown, Arts District, and other activity hubs. Why not?
    Dude, this is only SkyWest's suggestion.

  4. #729

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I will try to answer your questions, Nick, the best I can, and I am by no means a downtown expert.

    1. Simplicity. Adding turns and stuff adds distance. 4th is only a block away from the housing in Deep Deuce. Surely this system isn't going to touch every district. Some walking required, but close enough where it wouldn't be a big problem.

    2. EKG is already a wide road and could be considered a spine road through downtown/bricktown. It also passes near the Chase building and garages, as well as right next to the CC and Ford Center. Also, the hotel and Amtrack station.

    3. I am by no means an expert of the area. I think that is where the medical district is, yes/no?

    4. Not sure what you mean -- clarify and I will answer.

    5. Do you want a long looping system or a short speedy system? Think of it like being in a theme park and wanting to go from Point A to Point D, but you have to ride the monorail all the way to Point L, well out of the way, first.

  5. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Well because it's as good if not better than the COTPA maps I just thought I would give it the official treatment. Notice I referred to "COTPA" in my questioning--I was just playing SimCity, trying to add a different dimension to the making a route game..

  6. #731

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Sooner, I have no problem with Nick's questions. I appreciate criticism -- keeps everyone honest and thinking.

  7. #732

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Whoa Whoa Whoa!!

    Enough with the 80-mile streetcar maps! There is a misunderstanding among many people about the different components that make up the "system" OKC will eventually implement. People seem to be jumping the gun, thinking this is IT, the whole system.

    I noticed at the last meeting that several people were complaining about the lack of "reach" of the proposed routes and complain about it not reaching the Capital, the Airport, etc, etc...

    Many people seem to think that this is going to be "THE" transit system for OKC. People need to understand that the streetcar is a central city COMPONENT of the bigger SYSTEM. Longer-reach rail of whatever type is decided upon will be the means of moving around the non-core parts of the city--something with dedicated right-of-way so that you won't be riding a 2 MPH stop-and-start line for an extended distance. I.E. your NW, SW, SE, NE, Capital, Airport, Norman, Edmond, etc, etc lines. And of course, bus feeders as well.



    Can you imagine riding a streetcar from the Airport, or Norman??? Talk about a long a** journey. Maybe if you are retired and are just joy riding for fun with no schedule or set plans.

  8. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Yeah, if I made a map I would want just as much questioning and criticism..especially if COTPA's routes are just "soft proposals" thus far.

    1. Simplicity. Adding turns and stuff adds distance. 4th is only a block away from the housing in Deep Deuce. Surely this system isn't going to touch every district. Some walking required, but close enough where it wouldn't be a big problem.

    2. EKG is already a wide road and could be considered a spine road through downtown/bricktown. It also passes near the Chase building and garages, as well as right next to the CC and Ford Center. Also, the hotel and Amtrack station.
    Interesting about EKG though..do you think that this street is visually attractive in any way? Does width improve the ability to run a streetcar through the area? Are we better with or without EKG? (considering it is not an original part of any grid)

    3. I am by no means an expert of the area. I think that is where the medical district is, yes/no?

    4. Not sure what you mean -- clarify and I will answer.

    5. Do you want a long looping system or a short speedy system? Think of it like being in a theme park and wanting to go from Point A to Point D, but you have to ride the monorail all the way to Point L, well out of the way, first.
    Well the medical district actually starts at 10th, although most of it is along 13th, and goes up to 16th. A few people who work in the OUHSC told me they just didn't even see the point in COTPA's segment that ends at 8th.

    As for the convention center, I was referring to the Shields alignment that you included--which would be great for the mayor's preferred convention center location but horrible for the location that is preferred by the ULI, most urbanists, myself, Bricktown business owners, and more.

  9. #734

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    No, Shield's being Core To Shore. That was just a proposed future extension, which could be debated, and would most likely be built when C2S gains ground -- well past the new CC.

  10. #735

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    EKG, like I said, there's nothing real special about it. It is wide enough and had a median where it would not be a problem of widing streets and etc., not to mention close to CC, FC, the Amtrack, Chase tower, and the Hotel and FC parking Garage. Also not a long walk from the Botanical Gardens and only a block away from the estimated Central Park (further south of course). It could also cut across south of the FC and then south along Robinson.

  11. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    If we want simplicity..


    Can't get more simple than that. Then you run into the following problems (allow me to interrogate myself):

    1. Is it not important to try and touch a potential convention center facility for those potential riders?
    2. Completely missed the boat on Deep Deuce.
    3. Should we not also attempt to pick up passengers in the downtown core during the day?
    4. How does this system allow for future expansion? Doesn't look very conducive.

  12. #737

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Exactly 7 miles.


  13. #738

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    If we want simplicity..

    Although maybe less effective in the short-term, I have to say it is likely the more future-proof and less complex design. Your latest sketch looks a lot like the one I drew up in 2007, although mine does not have the east-west loop. My original sketch (which I can scan in and post) had almost the exact same north-south loop that you have, with the option of extending it on down when C2S is complete.

    Let's bury the streetcar and make it a subway--especially on the new C2S section! ha ha ha, that ought to stir up some crap with the angry pilgrims on here.

  14. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Why don't we just elevate the C2S streetcar (protection from the homeless on the street) and have sort of a monorail going over the Central Park for the purposes of connecting the Parkside Convention Center to the Turbinomic Tower. It should come in right around $120 mil, perfect.

  15. #740

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Spartan,

    I just dug out my original drawing and what I had was a line between the downtown loop and the transit center, and I had it making a stop in bricktown on the way to the transit center.

  16. #741

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Why don't we just elevate the C2S streetcar (protection from the homeless on the street) and have sort of a monorail going over the Central Park for the purposes of connecting the Parkside Convention Center to the Turbinomic Tower. It should come in right around $120 mil, perfect.
    I already tried that concept in another thread a long time ago and the angry pilgrims became very noisy. Simplicity and efficient design are frowned upon 'round these parts.

  17. #742

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I had a couple of thoughts tonight going to, during and after the meeting. First of all, I decided to walk to the meeting. It's pretty uncool to drive the five blocks when you've been talking about how living downtown means you can walk everywhere. That's when I realized that the weather is as much a factor as anything, and it's pretty darn hot even in May when you walk that far. So, while I can say that running the streetcar down Broadway and down Walker always puts you within two blocks of the line, you also have to walk to a stop once you reach the line, and that might be stretching it some times of the year.

    I also discovered that walking down the sidewalk next to a plaza is far hotter than walking in the shadow of a building, and that got me to thinking about how many months of the year a plaza is even enjoyable. We create big concrete spaces that are comfortable about five to six months of the year only (sorry, Sandridge digression)?

    When I got to the meeting and really started looking at the suggested routes, I thought of trying to give people directions to the streetcar: "You can catch it by turning right at the Boulevard onto Hudson. Two blocks later, turn right again for two blocks on Reno, then you turn left (north) on Robinson for six blocks, turn left on 4th street for two blocks and then turn right on Hudson again. You can pick it up anywhere on that route". Huh? That's just one north-south meander.

    This should be simple. We should be able to say, "You can pick the streetcar up on Broadway, anywhere between Reno and 9th" or "The streetcar runs down Reno. There's a stop every two blocks between Walker and ....." I think we need a loop, and it mostly needs to look like a box.

    Those are my thoughts so far.

  18. #743

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Without getting into the "why doesn't it go here" thing, this is perhaps the closest I have seen to what came to mind when the Mayor described it as a spoke and hub system (rather than the loopy kind in many of the others)...and I don't mean loopy in a derogatory way. LOL

  19. #744

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    For those that are proficient with the mapping, how does this "route" look in the real world? Add on the Memorial and OCU Law Library/Jail/Courthouse (if you can add the referenced points to the map that would help too). Length etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by proud2Bsooner View Post
    This map seems to be fairly correlative to Platemaker's but it looks like it goes further south to the southern tip of the park.

    Think the map originated with Urban Pioneer but may be mistaken, I grabbed it from the beginning of this thread.

  20. #745

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    No. You are correct. I did draw this up with our graphic artist, Koon at Creative Vega. The idea was to show all of the areas serviced by the streetcar depicted in the 2005 Fixed Guideway Study.

    I made it a point not to suggest routes on specific streetcars. The MTP committee as a group has always done the same as well. We very much wanted to make sure that the public input process remained undisturbed.

    I will say though, after sitting through every single one of these meetings, I am starting to draw conclusions of my own. At some point, when it is appropriate, I will speak up about specific streets. One thing that I want to absolutely make sure that my recommendations are sound.

    It is really easy to start drawings lines on a map. The reality is, you have to to factor engineering concerns, turning radius of cars, platform spaces, and what is underground.

    One quick tidbit for example- I will say I believe in double tracking Sheridan. However, that is not possible as there is a 20" high pressure gas main that we have to stay 10' away from. So Sheridan can only accommodate one track on the north side.

    I am glad that the pipe is on the south side though. Because if Santa Fe station does become the hub, streetcars will be turning (west) or left to get onto Sheridan. It is the preference in most streetcar systems to be making left hand turns thus causing a counter clockwise operation.

    So no offense to anybody drawing out routes on Google maps. They are food for thought and demonstrate the desire to connect a specific area which is extremely important. But if I ever vocally suggest preferring a particular street, it will be based on every bit of information that I can assimilate from all of the engineers, utility companies, and Project 180 people of every linear foot of concrete that might be affected.

    And I will speak very judiciously in these committee meetings. We have to get this right.

  21. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Jeff, are you aware of any limitations to a streetcar along Park and Hudson? I'm thinking that the red route presented by COTPA very well could be an excellent proposal if we shifted the Hudson length further down and then turn down Park toward Robinson, instead of turning as far north as the memorial. By going all the way down Hudson until Park, you actually serve the Arts District area, which is key in my opinion.

    Are Park and Hudson workable options?

  22. #747

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    If we want simplicity..
    Simple and legible; strengthens important urban corridors; and responds directly to the citizen's input given during the Let's Talk Transit process.

    Well done.

  23. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Well, Jeff and others, after attending last evening's final Let's Talk Transit session, as well as speaking with Mike McAnelley after the meeting, I reached a different conclusion than you expected that I might. I am now persuaded that Let's Talk Transit was completely legit when it said that public participation would have an impact on streetcar route locations. The real test, of course, was Walker ... why was Walker left out of the 3 proforma models presented at the meeting ... and I am quite satisfied by what he said following the meeting ... that the omission was a mistake, and he took the blame for that happening, and said that the Walker route preference (by 66% of those involved in this process) would be made known to the MAPS 3 Oversight Committee, the next level in the pecking order.

    My complete blog report is here: Doug Dawgz Blog: Blogging Rail At LetsTalkTransit ...

    ... but the Analysis section is set out verbatim below:
    -----------------
    ANALYSIS. Since this was the final Let's Talk Transit public meeting, my analysis focuses on two items in terms of recap: (1) Did the Let's Talk Transit people do a good job? (2) Were my concerns about the meaningfulness of these sessions addressed, and, if so, how and why?

    1. Let's Talk Transit Gets 5 Stars. Did the Let's Talk Transit people do a good job? Absolutely yes, in my opinion. All those involved in the COTPA organization, including Rick Cain, Larry Hopper, and Michael Scroggins (as well as any other COTPA people that I've not thought to mention), moderator Jennifer Eve, and certainly consultant Mike McAnelly, as well as those in the city's planning staff who were sometimes involved, did a heck of a job in putting these meetings together as well as maintaining a very useful Let's Talk Transit website which is available to anyone who did not attend the meetings. Hundreds of hours, and not just a few bucks, were clearly expended in making this series of meetings happen, and all involved were helpful, courteous, informative, and patient throughout the lengthy process. Those involved in organizing and executing this process get my highest praise and respect.
    2. Was The Process Meaningful and not just window-dressing? Yes, with no qualification as to Let's Talk Transit, but this opinion wasn't as easily formed as the above. I'll explain:

    Review of My Previous Reservations. It is only fair that I begin this section by giving an explanation for my caution in being concerned that the public input which was clearly allowed for, even cajoled and encouraged, by the COTPA and city staffers might not actually matter one way or another. Quite simply, the reason has to do with events leading to the MAPS 3 vote when the public was told similar things — starting with Mayor Cornett's promise in his May 13, 2009, Roundtable meeting that public forums or opportunities would occur before the matters were decided for residents to tell city leaders what they want to see on the ballot — which public forums or opportunities never materialized ... the saying, "trick me once, shame on you; trick me twice, shame on me," comes to mind. I won't even get into the Convention Center's possible location which we were and are told hasn't yet been decided. As for the MAPS 3 campaign itself, although many like myself strongly supported MAPS 3, for some, like me, that support existed notwithstanding the obvious conflict of interest that existed the campaign being headed up by David Thompson, publisher of the Oklahoman and the censuring of his own employees, Oklahoman journalists, during the campaign as to what they could report and how the reporting was to occur. This is the short version of how I came to be cautious, yes, jaded, about believing what I was told by city leadership. The fact is that during 2009 my willingness to accept what I was told by city officials as being necessarily sincere came to be tempered by a mineral that had not been there before — jade.

    When top city leaders give cause for distrust, it has a spillover, a trickle-down, effect, at least it did for me. And so it was that, when the Let's Talk Transit process began, I wondered out loud in my columns here whether the promised public input really mattered or whether it was merely window trimming for matters already decided or which would come to be decided regardless of public input. In this context, although I'd experienced excellent meetings during the Let's Talk Transit process, I continued to wonder if all of fine public participation really mattered.

    Part of that wonder had to do with the route scenarios presented at this meeting. Notice the omission of Walker in any of the three proforma route scenarios, shown above. If 4 of the 6 working groups indicated such a preference, and if public input really mattered, why was it not included in at least one of the presented possibilities?

    To answer that question, let me digress a bit. I arrived at the meeting early and had an opportunity to chat with with Messrs. Mike McAnelly, Rick Cain, and Michael Scroggins. I mentioned to Michael that, if he'd read what I've previously written he might have noticed that an underlying concern I had was whether the public input gathered from the Let's Talk Transit process would really matter when routes were finally determined, and that I was hoping to hear something in this last meeting that would allay my concern. His good-natured reply was, to the effect, "Well, if the meetings don't take public input into account in arriving at routes, we've (he and COTPA's staff) surely have been wasting a lot of time," but, of course, that answer begs the question. Without any doubt, COTPA and its staff, as well as those in the city planning department, have expended lots of time and money putting these excellent sessions together. But, the question remained, "to what end?"

    My distrust was soothed a bit during McAnelly's presentation. He made it clear that everything presented during the sessions would be presented to the Oversight Committee, the next step in the process, including the routes submitted by all groups, including that a 2/3 majority of those favored that Walker be included. But, the question lingered, why hadn't Walker included in the proforma scenarios?

    After the meeting, a final opportunity to talk with him occurred. After Steve Lackmeyer asked McAnelly several questions, I got my turn. I had written my question on one of those cards that didn't have time to get answered (thanks to those who circumvented the written question approach), and here was my chance, face to face. I've forgotten how the written question was literally worded, but the gist, and my oral question, and the rest of the conversation, came out something like this:

    Loudenback: We are told that public input is helping shape the placement of the streetcar routes. Given that, can you give one example of a route that would most probably NOT have been included but which was as a result of the public sessions? I understand that this is sort of a convoluted question, but do you get my drift? I guess that I'm saying, "Prove it."
    McAnelly: I understand what you are saying. The example is probably Walker — it would probably not have been included in the routes.
    Loudenback: But Walker is not included in any of the three models.
    McAnelly: That was a mistake and it was probably my fault. That a majority favor Walker will be shown as a public preference.
    Without-a-blink straightforward honesty and integrity will win me over anytime, anyplace. With that, my concerns, above expressed, were dashed, and I am exceptionally pleased to say that I have no lingering doubts about Let's Talk Transit's stated intentions as being true. Trust is an earned thing, and, in Let's Talk Transit, I am satisfied that the trust is deserved.

    My final comment and additional hope: Perhaps the good will engendered by Let's Talk Transit will have a trickle-up effect, as well.
    Is this what you expected me to say, Jeff?

  24. #749

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by bdhumphreys View Post
    Simple and legible; strengthens important urban corridors; and responds directly to the citizen's desire as stated during the Let's Talk Transit process.

    Well done.
    How many miles is that? I like it, with the reservations outlined below.

    And Doug, while one can hope Walker really was an oversight, as I said earlier, my walk over to city hall made me realize that it's possible Walker isn't the best choice. Athough you would never be more than two blocks from a streetcar line, were it to run down Walker and Broadway, what I didn't think about until my walk is that you might walk your two blocks and have to walk further to a stop. It doesn't sound like much, but in the heat it seems a lot farther than it is. If it seemed like a bit of a hike to walk five blocks west to me, to people unaccustomed to walking it might seem like an onerous experience, which we want to avoid. We want people to feel as if they can pop on or off easily anywhere in town. Also, if we want the line to stop at the city bus building, we would have to weave on and off Walker, and I'm now thinking the straighter the line the better.

  25. #750

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    How many miles is that? I like it, with the reservations outlined below.
    Just measure it. Works out to approx. 6.89 miles.

    Anyone interested in laying out there own routes, I recommend ScribbleMaps. Use the line tool and it will give you the distance in kilometers (1 mile = 1.61 km).

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