Streetcar

[soonerguru]

A Downtown ontheRange: 3 options (that don't stink)

There are three routes COTPA is unveiling..red, green, and blue. I just don't like the green route personally, love the red route, blue route is alright, too. That's just my opinion though. I think that the red route does the best job on focusing on a comprehensive downtown picture, and you realize just what a huge geographic area downtown is. I think the blue sort of focuses, more than anything, on employers. I am not sure what green is supposed to be focusing on, honestly.

If these are the options, I'm less than thrilled. I wish Film Row were brought in more as well as more of Automobile Alley.

[Doug Loudenback]

A Downtown ontheRange: 3 options (that don't stink)

There are three routes COTPA is unveiling..red, green, and blue. I just don't like the green route personally, love the red route, blue route is alright, too. That's just my opinion though. I think that the red route does the best job on focusing on a comprehensive downtown picture, and you realize just what a huge geographic area downtown is. I think the blue sort of focuses, more than anything, on employers. I am not sure what green is supposed to be focusing on, honestly.

Very good, Nick. Where did you get these route pictures? They are quite useful in previewing the meetings to be held later today.

[Spartan]

Guru, They're pretty much the same as what they tried to present at the last meeting, except red and blue have been modified.

Doug, I got them in my email from Kinsey Crocker today.

[Doug Loudenback]

I'm going to beat up on her for not sending them to me, too!

[Larry OKC]

Not only is it important to co ordinate this with Project 180 (cost savings and inconvenience of tearing up the streets multiple times), but one thing that somehow keeps being left out of the route talks (may have been addressed at the Lets Talk meetings, but if they did, it doesn't appear to be reflected in the routes) is a direct link to the

1) MAPS 3 Convention Center (run thru the C.C.)
2) MAPS 3 Park, the Southern end (Union Station)
3) MAPS 3 transit hub (if @ Santa Fe station then it is covered, if not...)

Obviously the problem with #1 and #3 is we don't know where they are going to be. I understand that these routes are very preliminary and changes are most likely going to happen between the oversight committee and Council so maybe by then it will be determined. But I don't see how we can leave direct connections to those out.

[blangtang]

I'd vote the blue routes. I don't have a reason, blue is my favorite color...

But really, i like how all three have the NW terminal at a place that could and would be added on to in the future toward the near downtown neighborhoods.

[MIKELS129]

I live in this area and I can't see me using these routes as an alternative to driving. Although I would really like too. I really really would.
It should be simplified.
It is apparent special interest corrupted the planning process.
Something is not always better than nothing. I would rather not waste the citizens money on THIS.

[Steve]

My guest blogger today is Blair Humphreys - OKC Central - Information about Oklahoma City, Bricktown and beyond - and he shares Doug's concerns.

[Kerry]

I think the blue route is way to confusing. It appears it has three lines running their own loops. Green and red appear good but I think I prefer green, no wait - red, no - green. I can't decide. I wish there was a secret 4th option that combined the best of red and green.

I like green because thru the residential portion of Bricktown it has good coverage and serves city offices. I like the red because it goes up Broadway and it serves what will be the new main enterance of the Ford Center.

In general, I don't like it running right next to the Memorial. I think the Memorial is something you should walk up to, not hop off a street car at.

[Chicken In The Rough]

Is it just me? None of these routes look very efficient. I counted 14 turns on one of them. Every streetcar system with which I have had experience generally runs straight and with purpose. They connect one point with another without meandering around the city. All of these routes appear to be more for tourists than for general transportation needs. Perhaps in a 50-year plan, these might make more sense. All the turns provide ample opportunity for future connecting routes. But, I don't like these -- not even as starter system routes.

[betts]

I think the red option is the best, everything considered, but I have to second Larry's concern: Why don't we have the line going to the new park? The blue line goes closest to the park but completely ignores most of the eastern part of downtown.

If it's a "miles" consideration, even though I work at the Health Sciences Center, I'd rather see the red line not go to the Health Sciences Center and somehow traverse Core to Shore. I worry that any extensions of the line won't occur for years and years, and by not having transit there, Core to Shore won't become what is envisioned for it. If I could feel comfortable that it will be easy/quick to extend a line there once the park has been created, then that's different. Then, the red line is fairly satisfactory.

[CuatrodeMayo]

My guest blogger today is Blair Humphreys - OKC Central - Information about Oklahoma City, Bricktown and beyond - and he shares Doug's concerns.

Great article. Blair's written thoughts are exactly the thoughts that went through my mind when I sat down at the last meeting and saw that clusterf***.

[DirtLaw]

I think that the city is going to really miss this one if they do not include a civic center stop with the street car. My thought is that when people come to an event at the civic center it would be nice to eat in bricktown and then go to the civic center for the event. The only problem with this type of evening now is that you would have to pay to park twice, which most people will not do. So if you had a route that linked the civic center and bricktown, people could pay once and enjoy both downtown venues.

[betts]

Yes, I went over and read Blair's blog. It's excellent, and he has the same concern I do: it's a waste of miles to run a line to the Health Sciences Center. It would be nice to take the streetcar to Bricktown for lunch for me, and there are probably a few people with families who are hospitalized who are staying in a Bricktown hotel, but the numbers don't warrant the amount of line it would take to get to the Health Sciences Center.

[Spartan]

This is where COTPA is coming from: "Well, we got Sheridan people covered..there are four blocks of Sheridan. We got Robinson covered. We got so and so street covered." The old, tryin to make everyone happy. It would be nice to see COTPA take a stand with whatever viewpoint they think is right and commit to a simplified streetcar route. That said, I really don't think that the red route is that bad. I am curious as to why there is a double track along the east end of Deep Deuce as opposed to a single track down Joe Carter and another opposite track going down Walnut, but I will assume it has to do with the projected cost constraint of reinforcing the Walnut Street bridge and maybe not being an option with a 6.75 mile system.

The Sooner route option is by far the best. I am with Kerry though in that a streetcar stop at the Memorial is not nearly as pivotal as they seem to think it is.

Blair has a REALLY fascinating point I have not considered about the viability of OHC coverage. He's dead-on about the importance of simplicity. I am not so sure about his assessment that COTPA has ignored us.. I think the problem is being too inclusive of all the morons, and not taking the side of those of us that do know what we're talking about. I actually don't understand why Jeff isn't just running this whole process, but oh well.

As for today, the noon meeting starts now. I'm in a cubicle in Norman. I will be at the 6:30 meeting. If anyone else will be there, send me a message on here and we might go get coffee afterward somewhere. We oughta have an OKC Talk seating section at the meeting, or, at the very least say hi. lol

[betts]

I'm going to the six o'clock meeting. I'll be very curious to see how the three routes are presented and how interested they will be in feedback.

[soonerguru]

I agree with Blair Humphreys that the ultimate routes should have as few turns as possible, else they turn into permanent versions of the stupid tourist trolleys. As he put it, the routes need to be purposeful and direct.

[okclee]

I like Blue.

Would like to see Blue adjusted just a bit.

Like going further north to 11th street shown in route Red. Also I like how red and green have the track along Stiles through deep duece area.


But I do not like any double track. That is why I do not like red.

[soonerguru]

What's wrong with double track? Wouldn't we want to catch it going both ways?

[BG918]

Portland has had success with single track with one line going down street A and another going the other way down street B a block away. That way new development is spread over several blocks instead of being concentrated on one street.

[Spartan]

The Portland streetcar also follows a very meandering path down to the south waterfront--although Downtown and the Pearl District are just a long straightaway route.

[okclee]

Portland has had success with single track with one line going down street A and another going the other way down street B a block away. That way new development is spread over several blocks instead of being concentrated on one street.

That is my thinking too. Lets spread out the lines more for development reasons.

Get on the streetcar on one side of the block but when you come back you are on the other side of the block. Nothing wrong with that. This way both sides of the block get to benefit from the streetcar presence and can spur more development.

[BG918]

That is my thinking too. Lets spread out the lines more for development reasons.

Get on the streetcar on one side of the block but when you come back you are on the other side of the block. Nothing wrong with that. This way both sides of the block get to benefit from the streetcar presence and can spur more development.

Exactly. You could even spread it out 2 blocks (3 blocks max) and hit more areas. Denver also does this with their light rail through downtown.

[okclee]

Most are spread out more than one block, more like the two or three, if you look at the proposed routes.

That is why I like the Blue route.

I also like how the Blue adds an extra block or two to the south west, which will be the future Boulevard.

[betts]

The Blue doesn't include Broadway, though. I consider that its biggest failing, besides the fact that the route is confusing. Personally, I think if we're going to have a line anywhere at all, it needs to go down Broadway and one of the major east-west streets.

The best part about the blue line is that it heads further west than the others, closer to Union Station.