The Abortion Issue

[Hammondjam]

Read carefully, PQ. There ARE reasons and situations where an abortion is the more humane thing to do. THAT is what I'm arguing. I'm not saying to kill all the kids. I'm merely countering your side that says that there is NEVER any good reason to abort a fetus.

If you're a believer in the "God loves the little children" idea then don't you think He should do something besides facillitating their birth and then leaving them to whatever may happen to them. I do consider some of the cases I've seen and heard of where kids lived a torturous and loveless life to be much worse than never making it out of the womb. I find it kinda strange than many of the same folks that get all enraged at abortion clinics don't mind at all sending an eighteen year old off to possibly get killed in war. Many of those same people are also very much in support of the death penalty. Didn't God make that murderer or that Iraqi too? Aren't we snuffing out His creation without his permission?

[Bunty]

Really I don't see how anyone as a stranger should care about someone else's baby so much. I sure don't. When I think of promoting sexual responsibility, and so hopefully reduce the likelihood of unwanted babies, I'm thinking of a pregnant woman not having to be in the position of choice.

[Bunty]

Translate Please !

No translation needed. Either you think that unborn babies are more important to society than anybody else or they're not. I think they're not.

[PennyQuilts]

Read carefully, PQ. There ARE reasons and situations where an abortion is the more humane thing to do. THAT is what I'm arguing. I'm not saying to kill all the kids. I'm merely countering your side that says that there is NEVER any good reason to abort a fetus.

If you're a believer in the "God loves the little children" idea then don't you think He should do something besides facillitating their birth and then leaving them to whatever may happen to them. I do consider some of the cases I've seen and heard of where kids lived a torturous and loveless life to be much worse than never making it out of the womb. I find it kinda strange than many of the same folks that get all enraged at abortion clinics don't mind at all sending an eighteen year old off to possibly get killed in war. Many of those same people are also very much in support of the death penalty. Didn't God make that murderer or that Iraqi too? Aren't we snuffing out His creation without his permission?

First, I am not one that thinks NO fetus should be aborted but I am very conservative about it. Next, as someone who has worked with foster kids for ages, and who was responding directly to your comments about foster care and abuse, I think my response was on point. And while I am opposed to the draft, which would send an 18 year old off to war against his will, fortunately, we don't have one. Any 18 year old that goes off to war did so by his/her own choice. And god bless 'em, they are the best of us.

[Hammondjam]

First, I am not one that thinks NO fetus should be aborted but I am very conservative about it. Next, as someone who has worked with foster kids for ages, and who was responding directly to your comments about foster care and abuse, I think my response was on point. And while I am opposed to the draft, which would send an 18 year old off to war against his will, fortunately, we don't have one. Any 18 year old that goes off to war did so by his/her own choice. And god bless 'em, they are the best of us.

OK, I believe we have somewhat of an understanding of each others points and they're not that different after all. I DO have to say that you appear to be missing my point on my comparison of abortion and war. The soldier's willingness to go isn't what I'm questioning. It's the high value that some put on the life of an 18 day old fetus vs. the seemingly low value that they place on an 18 yr. old. BTW, I've had two soldiers, at different times, move in with us because they were homeless and had health issues from battle wounds(when our own government pretty much refused to help) so I think our military is pretty special too.

Turns out we're not that different in opinion after all. Thanks for the conversation either way.

[PennyQuilts]

OK, I believe we have somewhat of an understanding of each others points and they're not that different after all. I DO have to say that you appear to be missing my point on my comparison of abortion and war. The soldier's willingness to go isn't what I'm questioning. It's the high value that some put on the life of an 18 day old fetus vs. the seemingly low value that they place on an 18 yr. old. BTW, I've had two soldiers, at different times, move in with us because they were homeless and had health issues from battle wounds(when our own government pretty much refused to help) so I think our military is pretty special too.

Turns out we're not that different in opinion after all. Thanks for the conversation either way.

My brother served in Vietnam. We enlisted at 17 because his birthday put him number one in the draft and he no chance of a deferment. Trust me, I put every bit of value in his life as a fetus. You are parroting arguments made over and over and not throught through. To assume that I don't care about an 18 year old's life who went to war (he died 41 years ago, on the 18th) is offensive. You don't have any idea how people feel about such things.

[RealJimbo]

So we, as a society, need to grasp, once and for all, before God Almighty, that by far, without a doubt, that the people who are really most important of all to the world are all who are unborn? If so, why not treat each fetus as a God?

That's just ridiculous. You're making up stuff now. Oh, it's Bunty. Step away from the bong and let the air clear a bit.

[RealJimbo]

Read carefully, PQ. There ARE reasons and situations where an abortion is the more humane thing to do. THAT is what I'm arguing. I'm not saying to kill all the kids. I'm merely countering your side that says that there is NEVER any good reason to abort a fetus.

If you're a believer in the "God loves the little children" idea then don't you think He should do something besides facillitating their birth and then leaving them to whatever may happen to them. I do consider some of the cases I've seen and heard of where kids lived a torturous and loveless life to be much worse than never making it out of the womb. I find it kinda strange than many of the same folks that get all enraged at abortion clinics don't mind at all sending an eighteen year old off to possibly get killed in war. Many of those same people are also very much in support of the death penalty. Didn't God make that murderer or that Iraqi too? Aren't we snuffing out His creation without his permission?

I did read the exchange with PQ. I think we may have some common ground, but not when it comes to your assumptions of KNOWING that some people would have been better off aborted. That is a really desperate reach to support abortion. I also agree that there are some very, very limited legitimate reasons for abortion, but the old worn-out "save them from a life worse than death" and "avoid the dangerous back-alley abortions" are passe'.

[Bunty]

That's just ridiculous. You're making up stuff now. Oh, it's Bunty. Step away from the bong and let the air clear a bit.

But I do get the impression that some people who passionately support banning abortion because life begins at conception most certainly do worship the fetus and that it should have as much or more rights than the woman.

[Hammondjam]

I did read the exchange with PQ. I think we may have some common ground, but not when it comes to your assumptions of KNOWING that some people would have been better off aborted. That is a really desperate reach to support abortion. I also agree that there are some very, very limited legitimate reasons for abortion, but the old worn-out "save them from a life worse than death" and "avoid the dangerous back-alley abortions" are passe'.

I don't pretend to know the future of a fetus. Those types of arguments are a "hindsight is 20/20" thing. We can't decide until the nasty deeds are done, which is too late. I reserve the right to have those kind of opinions on these cases as a rebuttal to the whole "God's children" argument. If He loves them, He needs to protect them from human frailties. I don't support abortion like it's a choice of clothing, I just want to see the option left open in cases of extremes.

[RealJimbo]

But I do get the impression that some people who passionately support banning abortion because life begins at conception most certainly do worship the fetus and that it should have as much or more rights than the woman.

Guess again. Put down the roach and let your head clear. Your assumption is very poorly formed and does not follow logic. You inject too much of your pre-conceived (pun intended) notions and projections.

[RealJimbo]

I don't pretend to know the future of a fetus. Those types of arguments are a "hindsight is 20/20" thing. We can't decide until the nasty deeds are done, which is too late. I reserve the right to have those kind of opinions on these cases as a rebuttal to the whole "God's children" argument. If He loves them, He needs to protect them from human frailties. I don't support abortion like it's a choice of clothing, I just want to see the option left open in cases of extremes.

Now you presume to tell God, who is all powerful and all knowing what He should do. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts not our thoughts. This may be hard to follow if you are not a believer. Truly not trying to be a religious snob as that is so phony but using your own reasoning, "we can't decide until the nasty deeds are done", once aborted, the whole potential of an unborn person is snuffed and countless brilliant minds, gifted artists and fearless leaders will never see their first day or draw their first breath.

[Bunty]

Truly not trying to be a religious snob as that is so phony but using your own reasoning, "we can't decide until the nasty deeds are done", once aborted, the whole potential of an unborn person is snuffed and countless brilliant minds, gifted artists and fearless leaders will never see their first day or draw their first breath.

And some aborted might have been the next Hitler or McMeigh, or welfare queen. And since my life hasn't been all that happy and satisfying, I wouldn't have minded, if I was aborted and so helps explain to some extent why I'm pro choice.

[PennyQuilts]

Oh Bunty.

[RealJimbo]

And some aborted might have been the next Hitler or McMeigh, or welfare queen. And since my life hasn't been all that happy and satisfying, I wouldn't have minded, if I was aborted and so helps explain to some extent why I'm pro choice.

Yikes! Well that explains a lot.

[Mr T]

Now you presume to tell God, who is all powerful and all knowing what He should do. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts not our thoughts. This may be hard to follow if you are not a believer. Truly not trying to be a religious snob as that is so phony but using your own reasoning, "we can't decide until the nasty deeds are done", once aborted, the whole potential of an unborn person is snuffed and countless brilliant minds, gifted artists and fearless leaders will never see their first day or draw their first breath.

That's because I don't believe in Him anymore than I do Gandalf or Zeus. Maybe we're on two different levels because of my lack of religion but that's it.

By the laws of chance, Leaders and criminals will happen. I don't necessarily think that abortion changes the percentages that much, it mainly disrupts the random order.

Women should be able to decide what is right for them concerning carrying a child. Considering the troubles and hardships they go through for the priviledge of being a mom, I think they more than earned the right to say.

Thanks for chiming in.... I enjoy discussion.

[Mr T]

Ack! That isn't me - that is Hammondjam who has forgotten once again to log me out when he comes home from work. I'd tell him now but he is listening to loud Dave Matthews and reorganizing the subwoofer and the dog is howling.

[Prunepicker]

Women should be able to decide what is right for them concerning carrying a
child. Considering the troubles and hardships they go through for the
priviledge of being a mom, I think they more than earned the right to say.

I don't understand why a woman should be allowed to have her child
murdered.

[Bunty]

That's simply because you are a man rather than a woman. If you could wake up in the morning pregnant, then you could understand better what all goes in being a woman. What woman in this forum believes in a law to make it mandatory for all pregnant women to give birth as a means to putting a stop to abortion?

[Caboose]

And some aborted might have been the next Hitler or McMeigh, or welfare queen. And since my life hasn't been all that happy and satisfying, I wouldn't have minded, if I was aborted and so helps explain to some extent why I'm pro choice.

Wow.

[Caboose]

That's simply because you are a man rather than a woman. If you could wake up in the morning pregnant, then you could understand better what all goes in being a woman. What woman in this forum believes in a law to make it mandatory for all pregnant women to give birth as a means to putting a stop to abortion?

How does the way a woman feels being pregnant dictate whether or not a fetus is a full person with the right to life?

[Bunty]

How does the way a woman feels being pregnant dictate whether or not a fetus is a full person with the right to life?

Because the woman gave life to that fetus and while within her has the right to decide whether to continue it. It's really no one else's business except for the father's. It's a shame a number of them are of no help in deciding what is best to do. Of course, at least much, perhaps most of the time the baby was wanted and choice never entered into it.

[RealJimbo]

Because the woman gave life to that fetus and while within her has the right to decide whether to continue it. It's really no one else's business except for the father's. It's a shame a number of them are of no help in deciding what is best to do. Of course, at least much, perhaps most of the time the baby was wanted and choice never entered into it.

So say you. From what source do all of these rights come?

[Edmond_Outsider]

Here's what I've never understood about this argument.
If choice = murder then

Why does is War granted exception to the "Thou Shalt Not Kill?"
Debate over the language--kill vs. murder--but even in the Bible war seemed to pretty well get a pass. I don't think Jesus gave it one, but the OT was pretty full of warrior heroes--King David for example.

Why is it OK for a state to send soldiers against another state with the sole purpose to kill?
If all life is sacred, how come our wars have always been tolerated if not celebrated?
In all the churches I've gone to--48 years worth of Baptist, Presbyterian, and Disciples with the last being slightly less blood thirsty than the others--I've yet to find a congregation who didn't feel pretty well in favor of all the wars fought in my life time. Some of my Pastors have discussed their personal conflicts with me, but not from the pulpit. Pastor's understand, most of the time, what topics are taboo and speaking against war has never been a popular stance in any church I know of in Oklahoma except Mayflower Congregational.

Mayflower is a good example of how murder in the name of country is encouraged. My family and I were looking for a new church and at a Methodist congregation we visited, the deacon/elder assigned to escort us stated in the first minute that he "used to be a congregationalist until Myers turned them communist."

Why is self-defense considered an acceptable loophole in "Thou Shalt Not?" Why are so many of the Christian right so hard core for gun rights? Something tells me Jesus wouldn't be in favor of killing even for self-defense. Argue that all you want, but "forgive them father for they know not what they do" seems like a pretty good example of Jesus' view on self defense.

FWIW, I am in favor of self-defense. I'm even more in favor of defense of the defenseless. There are few things I wouldn't do to protect my family from harm. There are few things I wouldn't do to protect a stranger I encountered being harmed. But, I would do this with full knowledge that I would have to prevail upon God to forgive me and feel mostly sure he would.
At the same time, I am not a gun owner but I've no beef with self defense or gun ownership. I like shooting and have never turned down the opportunity.

At the same time, I find the second amendment at the lowest end of my list of importance and find the emotion attached to firearms odd.

If the unborn are so sacred, why does our society tend to thing the already born's lives are far less important? Why do we do so little to care for our poor children?

Consider this: In a capitalist society, jobs tend to be compensated at the degree to which they are valued. Social Work--a primary profession for those trying to care for poor children--is the lowest paid college degree in the US.

Can you imagine what sort of job we might do to care for our children if we reversed the pay scale of social workers vs corporate executives? I know this is a fantastic concept, but just for the sake of debate, if 1/100th the resource/talent/intelligence spent trying to figure out new financial derivatives or some other similarly unproductive but highly lucrative activity were spent on child welfare?

What would we get? Something which approaches the supposed importance "life" has to the "pro-life."

How about capital punishment? I'm not against that either but it seems yet another socially accepted exception to "thou shalt not kill."

I could continue, but somebody explain why these are OK but terminating a pregnancy desearves special status in the Christian world view.

[Prunepicker]

That's simply because you are a man rather than a woman. If you could wake
up in the morning pregnant, then you could understand better what all goes
in being a woman. What woman in this forum believes in a law to make it
mandatory for all pregnant women to give birth as a means to putting a stop
to abortion?

Not true. That may be an excuse for you but not for me. My wife and many
other women believe that abortion is murder, and that includes incest and
rape, and abortion shouldn't be a allowed. The influence of women is the main
reason I am anti-abortion.

It's going to be interesting to see how long it will be before you're back on
ignore.