Whole Foods

[kevinpate]

What is JMA?

I'm presuming the reference is to JMA Energy HOME - JMA Energy Company

[metro]

How many employees does JMA have? They say they aren't hiring on their website, so they must not be in a growth mode.

[ThePlainsman]

How many employees does JMA have? They say they aren't hiring on their website, so they must not be in a growth mode.

A little birdy says 48, so we'll say just under 50.

[metro]

I was going to guess 50, so that sounds believeable. Not sure I'd refer them as big corporate headquarters. There are companies HQ in the Village with more employees.

[BDP]

Things like the quote above make me think: Live, Work, Play, mixed-use center ala The Shops at Legacy in Plano.

It kinda makes me think Aubrey has never seen an urban development. I guess it could happen, but it's not really headed that way and unless the campus itself became some sort of real mixed use with public access, I have no idea how he thinks they can do it. You can't really have a sprawling private campus and expect to accomplish an urban environment. There is a big difference between looking urban and actually having a dense mix of services with a pedestrian focus. I'd say it's a stretch to even call Classen Curve "urban".

And, just to be clear, I am not trying to make a qualitative judgment on the Chesapeake district. It's just not urban and isn't really even close.

[soonerguru]

It kinda makes me think Aubrey has never seen an urban development. I guess it could happen, but it's not really headed that way and unless the campus itself became some sort of real mixed use with public access, I have no idea how he thinks they can do it. You can't really have a sprawling private campus and expect to accomplish an urban environment. There is a big difference between looking urban and actually having a dense mix of services with a pedestrian focus. I'd say it's a stretch to even call Classen Curve "urban".

And, just to be clear, I am not trying to make a qualitative judgment on the Chesapeake district. It's just not urban and isn't really even close.

I agree. And I don't find Classen Curve to be exactly pedestrian oriented. It fits right into our pastiche of motor car strip centers.

[OKCHerbivore]

though this might draw the thread away from Whole Foods in particular, I live about 2 blocks from where the Whole Foods site is going to be (and i am vastly excited for it to open!), and my wife and dog and i get to watch the CHK campus grow each week.

While I initially bemoaned moving out to the area (from Jefferson Park) because of how far out it was (my wife is doing her masters in Edmond, so it was a compromise), and how non-urban it seems. For sure, it is not a particularly gridded or even urban area, however, i notice the value in urban districts tends to be not from the physical space only, but because it lends itself to good neighborhoods with dense services and easy navigation on foot.

That being said, with Forward Foods and Whole Foods where they are, in addition to CCurve, we can walk far more places for daily/special services and goods than we could even in Jeff. Park, which I loved.

Within walking: fast food (sonic, camille's), good food: (Flip's, 105 Degrees (i'm a vegetarian, so this is surprisingly convenient), Republic, et al CC spots), 2 grocers (FF, WF forthcoming), Wine Shop (Vintage), Pet Store (Central Park), Bars/"Pubs" (Flips, Republic), Farmer's Market, running track, running store (Red Coyote), places to walk our dog that are somewhat interesting (CC), and even a longer stroll to shopping at Shoe Gypsy and coffee at Starbucks.

So, while I remain committed to getting back to downtownish digs, I stand humbled at the walkability of my area, and as CC grows and fills in, who knows, we might have a satellite urban area on our hands.

I do agree that CHK's campus is a suburban one, and much more infill is needed in the area, as well as ways to incentivize walking within the area, and not driving from CHK to CC, to Nichols Hills Plaza, etc. They are putting in more sidewalks, which is a much delayed step to help tie the area together, but we still need to develop density and connection so that folks can make several walks from one parking place. Perhaps WF can be that one parking place, and they can earn even more sustainablity points by encouraging walking in such a difficult city as ours, even in the last holdout of urbanity before the swath of wealth that is Nichols Hills.

[Spartan]

Within walking: fast food (sonic, camille's), good food: (Flip's, 105 Degrees (i'm a vegetarian, so this is surprisingly convenient), Republic, et al CC spots), 2 grocers (FF, WF forthcoming), Wine Shop (Vintage), Pet Store (Central Park), Bars/"Pubs" (Flips, Republic), Farmer's Market, running track, running store (Red Coyote), places to walk our dog that are somewhat interesting (CC), and even a longer stroll to shopping at Shoe Gypsy and coffee at Starbucks.

Imagine the potential of turning this into a truly walkable area that does have all of these things within reasonable pedestrian access. All it would take are some pedestrian-oriented capital improvements in the area. Is there even a sidewalk yet along Classen in front of the Classen Curve development?

My problem with Aubrey's vision so far: How can someone even call the area walkable and urban (yet) when there's not even a damn sidewalk.

[progressiveboy]

Imagine the potential of turning this into a truly walkable area that does have all of these things within reasonable pedestrian access. All it would take are some pedestrian-oriented capital improvements in the area. Is there even a sidewalk yet along Classen in front of the Classen Curve development?

My problem with Aubrey's vision so far: How can someone even call the area walkable and urban (yet) when there's not even a damn sidewalk.

If you look at the above post from yours it states that sidewalks and improvements are being made! So the answer to your question is "Yes".

[Spartan]

Just had dinner at Hideaway on Western and saw the new sidewalk running all the way along Classen Curve, but NOT along the other side of Classen Blvd (which would be nice to see, connecting pedestrians to the cemetery). At Grand and 63rd they're installing some decorative crosswalks and a new sidewalk was installed along Grand. It looks like they ARE beginning to make pedestrian connections all throughout the area.

[rcjunkie]

Just had dinner at Hideaway on Western and saw the new sidewalk running all the way along Classen Curve, but NOT along the other side of Classen Blvd (which would be nice to see, connecting pedestrians to the cemetery). At Grand and 63rd they're installing some decorative crosswalks and a new sidewalk was installed along Grand. It looks like they ARE beginning to make pedestrian connections all throughout the area.

It's not just in this area, new trails/sidewalks are going in all over the City.

[HOT ROD]

I think people are going too crazy about the store size.

This store will be of urban design, most likely will have multiple floors (considering the site is a rather small footprint), and ALSO you have to figure there will may not be as much parking included - since it will be at a major employment campus AND be connected to other development which most likely would have 'campus' parking. .....

So, Subtract being over a parking garage and not having liquor (although it could be attached or next door), and you get the idea of what OKC could be getting. ...

People have said "I wish it were the size of this or that store", but those stores have parking garages included in the store's size. .... Maybe OKC's store will have just as much food 'floorspace' as the other big ones?

You would have to figure there would be at least two floors, 1 for ready made/classrooms/tasting/selling/cafe etc. space and the other floor for grocery sales. 35,000 divided by 2 = over 17,000 sq feet per floor. That's the size of Chase tower, Isnt it? Seems pretty big to me to have solely groceries and ready made foods/cafe.

[redrunner]

I think people are going too crazy about the store size.

This store will be of urban design, most likely will have multiple floors (considering the site is a rather small footprint), and ALSO you have to figure there will may not be as much parking included - since it will be at a major employment campus AND be connected to other development which most likely would have 'campus' parking. .....

So, Subtract being over a parking garage and not having liquor (although it could be attached or next door), and you get the idea of what OKC could be getting. ...

People have said "I wish it were the size of this or that store", but those stores have parking garages included in the store's size. .... Maybe OKC's store will have just as much food 'floorspace' as the other big ones?

You would have to figure there would be at least two floors, 1 for ready made/classrooms/tasting/selling/cafe etc. space and the other floor for grocery sales. 35,000 divided by 2 = over 17,000 sq feet per floor. That's the size of Chase tower, Isnt it? Seems pretty big to me to have solely groceries and ready made foods/cafe.

Wow, you can't be serious. There are so many things wrong with what you just said. A 2 level Whole Foods with only 17k sf per floor? Have you seen the small footprint a Walmart neighborhood market takes up? And those are around 40k sf. The site is not small at all to accommodate the proposed Whole Foods.

[semisimple]

People have said "I wish it were the size of this or that store", but those stores have parking garages included in the store's size.

Prove it.

[HOT ROD]

you can look for yourself, I have confidence in you. ...

[Rover]

I can't believe people on here are arguing about things they yet don't know but are merely speculating.

The size of the store is less material than the support it receives, at any size. For this city, for this development site, WF and Chesapeake have decided for long term success this is the correct size. So be it.

As for Chesapeake's "urbanization" plans, they are being criticized without one single piece of evidence as to what the totality of the plans are. To underestimate Aubrey is wrong. To say he doesn't know what an urban center is or that he lacks vision is wrong. He is widely traveled and has access to some great architectural and planning minds and is heavily invested in making the area a success.

Maybe the reason they have been so secretive about their plans so far has been because everone and their dog loves to second guess and criticize and get in the way without offering capital or risk or any other skin in the game. At least Chesapeake is willing to do something to make the area better than just let it deteriorate slowly like previous owners in the area have been satisfied to do.

These discussions are fine, but sometime I would like to see others who think they know better to actually get in the game and prove their ideas are better. Right now Chesapeake, Devon and SandRidge are the ones willing to invest and try to make something happen on a significant scale.

[semisimple]

you can look for yourself, I have confidence in you. ...

That information doesn't exist because it's simply not true. Once again, you've spewed utter BS in the name of OKC boosterism. (Not to mention the rest of your post was equally ridiculous--2 stories for a 35k square foot grocery store?!) Face it: OKC really is going to get a watered-down version of the WF stores that exist in Dallas and Austin.

[Oil Capital]

That information doesn't exist because it's simply not true. Once again, you've spewed utter BS in the name of OKC boosterism. (Not to mention the rest of your post was equally ridiculous--2 stories for a 35k square foot grocery store?!) Face it: OKC really is going to get a watered-down version of the WF stores that exist in Dallas and Austin.

Before this turns into a whole thread of posts agonizing over the possibility that we're getting a "smaller" store because the folks at Whole Foods don't respect OKC, let it be noted that Whole Foods is not developing those ginormous stores any more. They have down-sized their plans for a whole bunch of their stores in development and 35,000 square foot stores is pretty much what they are building these days. (One suspects that the ginormous stores have not been all THAT successful...)

[soonerguru]

This store is going to be awesome. It's not a "small" store. The "small" store in Tulsa is very nice. It's going to be bigger than that. I'm pumped.

[HOT ROD]

where's your proof that OKC is getting a watered down WF, Semi?

Oh that's right, pure BS and speculation in the name of what? Anti-OKC boosterism?.

Give me a break.......

[Rover]

Let's put a stop to all this size nonsense. I know there are those who just want to position OKC badly and want to present everything in the most negative way. They don't want facts to get in the way.

According to Whole Foods' corporate financials:

Average Size

Stores over eight years old 27,100
Stores between five and eight years old 30,500
Stores between two and five years old 36,000
Stores less than two years old (including relocations) 36,400
All stores in comparable store base 31,200
All stores open at the end of the first quarter 31,300

So, apparently this is right at the footprint they choose. Some are bigger, some are smaller but obviously 35,000 ft is right in their sweet spot. My guess is that they increased size over the last 5 years as a result of their acquisitions.

I trust they are building the size that gives them the best opportunity to maximize their investment and is scaled for the actual site. Just a good business decision.

So can we just stop the childish "mine is bigger than yours".

Or MAYBE they want to build TWO at 35,000 ft in OKC area rather than ONE 45,000. Yeah, I bet that is it. One in Norman/south OKC and one in north central OKC.

[Architect2010]

Just because a new Whole Foods is opened at 35,000 sq. ft. versus the large flagship store in Austin, it doesn't mean it's "watered down". Any argument that has such a stance is flawed. Especially since Austin and Dallas's Whole Foods Stores are an exception in size. Most Whole Foods are not as huge. So rather than our store being "watered-down", it seems that ours is more in-line with the average and Austin's and Dallas's are not.

Also, Whole Foods is in the process of slimming down stores. You can read the advantages that smaller stores have for Whole Foods and how they perform better than those super stores. Whole Foods Slims Down Stores So They'll Age Better

In fact. The Whole Foods Brand is actually targeting stores under 40,000 square feet as the future format. Whole Foods Warns of Layoffs and Smaller Stores "We are looking at sites that are under 40,000 square feet as a format for our stores as we go forward,” says Vicki Foley, a Whole Foods regional spokeswoman. “That is not just our region—that’s for the whole county.” While 40,000 square feet is still large, it marks a departure from competing with the Safeway and QFC mega-markets."

[bluedogok]

The Downtown Austin store is under the HQ tower, it also contains a cooking school but the main reason for its size is the use of the store as the main market test location for new products and services, the Dallas store was done when they were thinking more of the megastore concept. The proposed store for The Domain was to be around 70,000 sf up from the existing 31,000 at the current North Austin (Gateway) location, that relocation has been on an indefinite hold and what I have head is they are looking at around 40,000 sf for a the new configuration if/when the developer starts on the next phase at that end of The Domain.

The only megastores they are building right now were planned well before the market downturn because in some jurisdictions it can take a few years to get through the development process and that would mean they are just completing those stores now. It was a year or two after the Downtown Austin store opened that they decided to try the megastore concept and typically only in the largest markets. Comparing a location in an OKC/Tulsa to a large market like Dallas or the Austin HQ store is ridiculous, they are just different markets.

[Spartan]

It's not just in this area, new trails/sidewalks are going in all over the City.

From the 2008 bond issue, yeah, but not from MAPS..that will probably be the last project. Is the bond issue paying for these new sidewalks though, or is it Chesapeake?

[Larry OKC]

I would imagine as a new private development, that it is required by city code for the developer to put in sidewalks (but maybe City code doesn't require it).

IIRC, the sidewalks in MAPS 3 and presumably the ones covered by the 2007 bond issue are ones the city is putting in an City owned property (libraries, parks, gov buildings, schools etc)