Classen Curve

[skyrick]

I don't think I've ever seen more Tuscan-motif construction anywhere in the world than in Midtown Tulsa. Not even Tuscany can match the faux-Tuscan buildings and homes in Tulsa lol. I don't know how I feel about it either..it was nice for the first ten million projects I guess.

I blame Diane Lane.

[BG918]

I don't think I've ever seen more Tuscan-motif construction anywhere in the world than in Midtown Tulsa. Not even Tuscany can match the faux-Tuscan buildings and homes in Tulsa lol. I don't know how I feel about it either..it was nice for the first ten million projects I guess.

I think that's a result of several prominent developers really liking that style or trying to emulate Philbrook or KC's Country Club Plaza. I've noticed Grand Lake has quite a few new 'Tuscan-style' homes too.

[Spartan]

Ah yes, the typical "Blame Bumgarner" approach. LOL jk.

[betts]

There seem to be themes in construction and Tuscan style should be on it's way out, based on how long its been popular. At least I hope so, as I'm pretty tired of it. Who knows what the next will be? If it's done well, it's not the end of the world. We've got all the lovely Tudor houses from the 20s and 30s when it seemed to be the rage, and they've stood the test of time. Someday people will look at Tuscan houses and say, "Those must have been built early in the century."

[Spartan]

That's incredibly true, Betts. I actually like individual faux-Tuscan buildings, I just don't like anything en masse. What if we had one neighborhood or development where each unit or home was a different motif, Tudor, Tuscan, German, Russian, and so on.. and wouldn't that be cool if Russian arch caught on? lol

I think it's telling how Italian Renaissance architecture was actually incredibly popular in some of OKC's earliest neighborhoods, I wonder what they thought of it then. During the 1990s, right before Tuscan became so popular in Dallas, Houston, Tulsa (and other cities that aren't OKC).. when you saw an Italianette home you typically assumed it was from the 1910s or 1920s.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Someday people will look at Tuscan houses and say, "Those must have been built early in the century."

They will be long gone by then. They are not built to last.

[bluedogok]

Frank Lloyd Wright's designs from the 1910s look more modern and warm than anything today.

Wright had many clients much like Rand does, ones who like and trust his "vision", it takes that kind of client who is willing to take a risk on something different and is able to finance it themselves. The majority of the financiers like to build what everyone else is, in their mind it reduces the risk when it should be the opposite.

Where are the architects with imagination and vision?

They are out there, "imagination and vision" projects are very far and few between. Most of the time we aren't allowed to have any "imagination and vision", we have to crank out what the paying customer (the developer and/or the group financing it) wants....and for the most part it is more faux-Tuscan crap....

They will be long gone by then. They are not built to last.

That may be the only saving grace...as you well know no one wants to pay for anything "lasting" and when repair/maintenance costs get too much they will just tear it down.

[cindycat]

i finally got to go check out the republic.....and red coyote. i actually think the curve is kinda ugly.

My husband and I lived in the OKC area for over 40 years before moving to NW Washington state. (We're trying to move back now.) We were in OKC last week for a visit. I had read on newsok.com about Classen Curve. My young hip cousins mentioned it at brunch, so we decided to drive by. I haven't read this whole thread, but I did see someone call it "urban cool." Maybe it's our age and "uncoolness" but we think it's more than "kinda" ugly - it's downright ugly.

Reminds me of that building at Western and Wilshire (I think) built by someone in the Kirkpatrick family 10-ish years ago. Big black thing.

Having said all that, I would love to be able to sell our house and move back. Despite our opinion of the design, the Curve does appear to be a great center.

[onthestrip]

My husband and I lived in the OKC area for over 40 years before moving to NW Washington state. (We're trying to move back now.) We were in OKC last week for a visit. I had read on newsok.com about Classen Curve. My young hip cousins mentioned it at brunch, so we decided to drive by. I haven't read this whole thread, but I did see someone call it "urban cool." Maybe it's our age and "uncoolness" but we think it's more than "kinda" ugly - it's downright ugly.

Reminds me of that building at Western and Wilshire (I think) built by someone in the Kirkpatrick family 10-ish years ago. Big black thing.

You must not be much of a Rand Elliot fan then, considering he designed both Classen Curve and Kirkpatrick Oils building. If you look at his projects, it seems 75% of them have been for Kirkpatricks or Aubrey McClendon.

[TeriOKC]

I love

[TeriOKC]

Sorry....I meant to say that I love Rand Elliott's work, even thought I'm more of a traditional, vintage house type of person. I adore the Kirkpatrick building and have fallen madly in love with the look of the Classen Curve project. We live in Crown Heights, so it certainly is a plus for us. Rock on, Rand...

[MikeOKC]

No disrespect to Mr. Elliott....I've debated telling this story, but here goes...I was with somebody from out-of-town last week and was on our way to the CHK campus and driving up Classen, completely involved in a conversation about computers. The man interrupted me and said, "Hmmm, that's an interesting look for industrial space. Very nice." I quickly told him that wasn't industrial that it was new retail shopping space, see the signs? He said, "Republic means nothing to me. Where's the place?" I went on to explain it's actually very, very nice and they have the greatest A/V setup I've ever seen anywhere. He was shocked it was retail. "It all says industrial to me, though with lines. It looked nice for that, but it's a horrible retail design." I changed the subject back to what a great place Republic is. Today, I drove by and you know? It does look kind of like chic industrial space in places along the strip there on Classen. I had never really thought about it, but is that because I know what it is? I guess I have to admit it's more than just different. I saw it as truly odd on the drive-by today.

[Spartan]

Classen Curve is very nice for what it is, a suburban retail strip format. It's not a substitute for a legitimate town center or sustainable development.

[betts]

What do you mean by sustainable development? I think some people may be surprised with the way that area turns out. Let's not forget that we will likely have a Whole Foods adjacent, and Aubrey owns a lot of land in that area. I think ultimately, with it and the Whole Foods block, as well as Nichols Hills Plaza, we will have a major destination shopping area for people. Nichols Hills Plaza is a legitimate town center because it IS a town center, complete with city hall and fire department. If development spreads south from it to Classen Curve, we will have a major area, similar to ones in other cities. It's not as funky, but Little Five in Atlanta comes to mind.

I have no reason on earth to be a homer for this area, as I'd much rather have something like this downtown, but I'm willing to call a spade a spade. I think he's on to something here, regardless of how it looks. Put the stores there and we will shop, industrial in appearance or not.

[MikeOKC]

What do you mean by sustainable development? I think some people may be surprised with the way that area turns out. Let's not forget that we will likely have a Whole Foods adjacent, and Aubrey owns a lot of land in that area. I think ultimately, with it and the Whole Foods block, as well as Nichols Hills Plaza, we will have a major destination shopping area for people. Nichols Hills Plaza is a legitimate town center because it IS a town center, complete with city hall and fire department. If development spreads south from it to Classen Curve, we will have a major area, similar to ones in other cities. It's not as funky, but Little Five in Atlanta comes to mind.

I have no reason on earth to be a homer for this area, as I'd much rather have something like this downtown, but I'm willing to call a spade a spade. I think he's on to something here, regardless of how it looks. Put the stores there and we will shop, industrial in appearance or not.

I agree, betts. That's why I mentioned the other day that the wide swaths of land without announced plans for them could very well mean a large mixed-use "Town Center/Village-like" lifestyle center.

An aside, for those of us old enough to remember, the old Penn Square was really ahead of its time.

[Spartan]

I'm with you Betts, when it comes to the future impending development that we've yet to see..and Whole Foods and Balliet's, while separate from the Classen Curve strip per se, it DOES definitely change the overall development much like the larger scale Chesapeake town center that we have reason to believe may be underway between Classen, Western, Grand, and 63rd.

The problem with this is that all we have to judge it by is Classen Curve + Whole Foods and we have yet to see what Whole Foods will look like although we have reason to believe it will be decent, to say the least! Judging Classen Curve independently.. it's not all that it is chalked up to be. The problem with Classen Curve is that the auxiliary projects are vital to its identity in order for it to have the buzz and venustas that Rand and AMC seem to think it should.

Is the massive Chesapeake mixed-use lifestyle center really on? It's difficult to say and it's driving us all crazy. It's bizarre how AMC expects us to go gaga over the project and acts as though he IS building the lifestyle center that will be the game changer OKC desperately needs, when all he has shown us yet is...Classen Curve. Hopefully there is more to this than what meets the eye..and it's bizarre in my opinion how we've now taken for granted the factors that we can't possibly know, those that do NOT meet the eye. In order for us to "fully appreciate" Classen Curve by the standard of the hype you almost HAVE to take those unbeknownst factors into careful consideration, probably the ultimate fool's proposition when talking about development.

[progressiveboy]

My husband and I lived in the OKC area for over 40 years before moving to NW Washington state. (We're trying to move back now.) We were in OKC last week for a visit. I had read on newsok.com about Classen Curve. My young hip cousins mentioned it at brunch, so we decided to drive by. I haven't read this whole thread, but I did see someone call it "urban cool." Maybe it's our age and "uncoolness" but we think it's more than "kinda" ugly - it's downright ugly.

Reminds me of that building at Western and Wilshire (I think) built by someone in the Kirkpatrick family 10-ish years ago. Big black thing.

Having said all that, I would love to be able to sell our house and move back. Despite our opinion of the design, the Curve does appear to be a great center.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I personally feel that CC is something different and unique for OKC. I live in Dallas and this type of building would be very hip and urban there. Maybe OKC is finally evolving and is become diverse in many ways. I hope so! Wow. I am surprised you would want to leave the beautiful state of Washington. It is so green, lush and people there are forward thinking.

[betts]

There's a price to be paid for green and lush. Actually two prices. One literal, with the cost of housing three times what it is here and a difference in income that's not 3x higher. And then there's the constant grey skies and drizzle. They get about the same amount of rain we do annually, but ours dumps from the skies in large volumes and theirs falls gently from the skies in a far greater amount of time.

We were going to move to Seattle once. We spent two weeks there doing all sorts of outdoorsy stuff....biking, rafting, hiking. I spent two days and nights in a tent on Mt. Ranier because it wouldn't stop raining. The first couple of days we were all, "This is a beautiful place, we could definitely live here." By the end, we couldn't wait to leave. And this was coming back to Oklahoma. I understand. I'm a blue sky lover.

[Rover]

If every building designed was done with traditional European styling and meeting the approval of the masses, then we would get what we have traditionally gotten in OKC. I applaud Rand and Aubrey for stepping out and pushing forward.

Consider that the impressionists like Monet, etc. were highly criticized at their time and now highly prized. It was new and strange and most could only accept the styles that were familiar and commercial at the time. Every new style in art and architecture is met with skepticism or rejection and that which is good or great is finally accepted and treasured. CC may or may not ever be truly appreciated or accepted in OKC, but it will be criticized by those with no vision or willingness to accept anything other than what they currently know or have been told is good design.

I believe Rands peers will and have understood what he has done and he will be appreciated by them. I hope the citizens of OKC follow suit and come to understand that diversity of architecture is what will help make OKC a CITY.

[betts]

I have no problem at all with the architecture. I think it looks clean and interesting. I do wish, however, that Aubrey could acquire another couple of blocks and open it up more. If there were another street south of the south buildings that was part of the center, it would give it a much less closed-in feel and be much more like an open air shopping center than a strip shopping center. Perhaps if the exisiting spaces were filled, it might be an option. Who knows?

[onthestrip]

Classen Curve is very nice for what it is, a suburban retail strip format. It's not a substitute for a legitimate town center or sustainable development.

Correct me if Im wrong but spartan probably says its not sustainable because this is probably not a money making development. I imagine the cost of construction will take forever to make back in rent, especially with local tenents who probably arent paying as much rent as a national retailer would. Without somenoe with deep pockets and someone who isnt worried so much about the bottom line, this type of development wont be done again. Id like to see the pro forma on this project.

[Reggie Jet]

I have friends who own a shop. They looked at Classen Curve and found out that the monthly rent for a 1200 sq. ft. space was $3,600. Don't know how this computes into CC being financially sustainable, but thought I'd pass it along.

[ronronnie1]

Wow. I am surprised you would want to leave the beautiful state of Washington. It is so green, lush and people there are forward thinking.

...because it rains too much perhaps?

[Spartan]

If every building designed was done with traditional European styling and meeting the approval of the masses, then we would get what we have traditionally gotten in OKC.

Yeah, because OKC is so European..

Onthestrip, that's actually not what I was referring to. I was actually suggesting that this is an underwhelming development when you look at the hype and separate the Classen Curve strip from auxiliary projects...though I share in everyone's hope that there IS more than we're seeing.

[Larry OKC]

I have no problem at all with the architecture. I think it looks clean and interesting. I do wish, however, that Aubrey could acquire another couple of blocks and open it up more. If there were another street south of the south buildings that was part of the center, it would give it a much less closed-in feel and be much more like an open air shopping center than a strip shopping center. Perhaps if the exisiting spaces were filled, it might be an option. Who knows?

I agree, my main problem with it is it appears sooooooo EMPTY. Yes, I know, there is a list of places that have announced they are going there...but until you see some activity (construction workers inside), store signage or at least "Coming Soon" banners....