Whole Foods

[metro]

Come on metro. Even a homer like you can recognize that downtown is a less ideal location than CC.

I never said it was. I agree fully with you that DT is a riskier venture for WF and doesn't seem as realistic, but for some odd reason if it is true, I definitely won't complain, even when I move out of DT and into an inner city historical neighborhood I'd drive DT in to shop there.

[MadMonk]

Disagree. Since WF would be a speciality niche market and will be the best forward thinking market in OKC I feel it will not be a novelty. Since OKC has such "crappy" supermarkets I believe there is enough pent up demand for quality produce, foods etc.. as people continue to evolve with more forward thinking and sophisticated palates not being afraid to try new things. Especially for OKC young educated professionals!

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think you overestimate the amount of extra time and money people want to spend on grocery shopping, regardless of their age, education level or profession. It's just human nature.

[soonerguru]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think you overestimate the amount of extra time and money people want to spend on grocery shopping, regardless of their age, education level or profession. It's just human nature.

Have you been to Whole Foods?

If you cook your own food regularly you will eventually become very frustrated in OKC with what you have to work with today. The difference in selection and quality of food and ingredients at, say, Homeland, and a Whole Foods is staggering.

If/when Whole Foods opens here, I will visit the store multiple times weekly.

[BDP]

People are pragmatic enough that they won't regularly shop somewhere miles out of their way once the novelty wears thin.

The reality is that Whole Foods is very much a destination grocer and I would think it would be even more so in Oklahoma City than their best markets. It's very rare that Whole Foods is the only place their customers shop for groceries. This is why density of income is so important to them and why our diluted demographics kind of hurt us.

So, really, their location scouters have an interesting question to answer: Do you locate as close to potential regular and/or exclusive shoppers even if that will probably be a minority of your customer base and would make it less convenient for the rest of the market, or do you locate in a location that offers the greatest convenience for the greatest number of people even if most of them individually are not going to shop there every week?

The interesting thing about downtown is that they would have a virtual monopoly on downtown, midtown, heritage hills, and mesta park, while being the best option for all of the core and historic neighborhoods in terms of quality. They would be able to easily sell to the downtown working community, which comes from all over the metro and would be a very good "day of" market to sell their popular (and margin building) prepared foods. They would be under a 25 minute drive from much of Norman, Edmond, Yukon, and Midwest City.

If they locate in CC, they are close to probably the biggest concentration of money in the city, but they lose a lot of the convenience factor for suburbs and lose some of their competitive advantage of the core neighborhoods and historic areas. They give up the convenience being in the city center would be for the downtown working sector and exchange it for basically Chesapeake's employee base.

So, while it seems at face value that CC is the best place because of the proximity to NH, downtown offers a lot of upside for them that could make the two locations fairly equal. I think it depends a lot on exactly where they would put one downtown. If they could find a spot that has good accessibility, it might not be such a bad deal for them.

I still think it would be CC if they do locate here. But if they are intent on creating a destination store in the city, downtown may make a lot of sense.

[soonerguru]

The reality is that Whole Foods is very much a destination grocer and I would think it would be even more so in Oklahoma City than their best markets. It's very rare that Whole Foods is the only place their customers shop for groceries. This is why density of income is so important to them and why our diluted demographics kind of hurt us.

So, really, their location scouters have an interesting question to answer: Do you locate as close to potential regular and/or exclusive shoppers even if that will probably be a minority of your customer base and would make it less convenient for the rest of the market, or do you locate in a location that offers the greatest convenience for the greatest number of people even if most of them individually are not going to shop there every week?

The interesting thing about downtown is that they would have a virtual monopoly on downtown, midtown, heritage hills, and mesta park, while being the best option for all of the core and historic neighborhoods in terms of quality. They would be able to easily sell to the downtown working community, which comes from all over the metro and would be a very good "day of" market to sell their popular (and margin building) prepared foods. They would be under a 25 minute drive from much of Norman, Edmond, Yukon, and Midwest City.

If they locate in CC, they are close to probably the biggest concentration of money in the city, but they lose a lot of the convenience factor for suburbs and lose some of their competitive advantage of the core neighborhoods and historic areas. They give up the convenience being in the city center would be for the downtown working sector and exchange it for basically Chesapeake's employee base.

So, while it seems at face value that CC is the best place because of the proximity to NH, downtown offers a lot of upside for them that could make the two locations fairly equal. I think it depends a lot on exactly where they would put one downtown. If they could find a spot that has good accessibility, it might not be such a bad deal for them.

I still think it would be CC if they do locate here. But if they are intent on creating a destination store in the city, downtown may make a lot of sense.

This is a really great point. For me, downtown would be a far preferable location, as that is where I work. Getting to Nichols Hills from where I live is not exactly convenient, although it's made somewhat easier by I-44.

[progressiveboy]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think you overestimate the amount of extra time and money people want to spend on grocery shopping, regardless of their age, education level or profession. It's just human nature.

I also believe that once people see the quality of WF with it's outstanding selections of cheeses, produce, and quality meats and it's tremendous salad bar and cooking classes etc.. then people will want to go out of their way and shop for "quality" items. It won't be your run of the mill OKC supermarket. I also find that people with high education levels tend to have higher incomes and can afford to pay for quality. The saying is so true, "You get what you pay for" philosophy. People either want quality or they do not.

[okclee]

Where downtown?

How about east end of Bricktown along Sheridan?

The demo of buildings has been going on there, just like the CC Hahn Cook site.

[Of Sound Mind]

The reality is that Whole Foods is very much a destination grocer and I would think it would be even more so in Oklahoma City than their best markets. It's very rare that Whole Foods is the only place their customers shop for groceries. This is why density of income is so important to them and why our diluted demographics kind of hurt us.

So, really, their location scouters have an interesting question to answer: Do you locate as close to potential regular and/or exclusive shoppers even if that will probably be a minority of your customer base and would make it less convenient for the rest of the market, or do you locate in a location that offers the greatest convenience for the greatest number of people even if most of them individually are not going to shop there every week?

The interesting thing about downtown is that they would have a virtual monopoly on downtown, midtown, heritage hills, and mesta park, while being the best option for all of the core and historic neighborhoods in terms of quality. They would be able to easily sell to the downtown working community, which comes from all over the metro and would be a very good "day of" market to sell their popular (and margin building) prepared foods. They would be under a 25 minute drive from much of Norman, Edmond, Yukon, and Midwest City.

If they locate in CC, they are close to probably the biggest concentration of money in the city, but they lose a lot of the convenience factor for suburbs and lose some of their competitive advantage of the core neighborhoods and historic areas. They give up the convenience being in the city center would be for the downtown working sector and exchange it for basically Chesapeake's employee base.

So, while it seems at face value that CC is the best place because of the proximity to NH, downtown offers a lot of upside for them that could make the two locations fairly equal. I think it depends a lot on exactly where they would put one downtown. If they could find a spot that has good accessibility, it might not be such a bad deal for them.

I still think it would be CC if they do locate here. But if they are intent on creating a destination store in the city, downtown may make a lot of sense.

I agree with this. I live in Edmond, but work downtown. I find getting to downtown much more convenient than getting to Classen Curve. I will shop at Whole Foods wherever it locates (and hopefully sooner than later), but I would actually vote for downtown/Bricktown over Classen Curve. And why not offer them tax incentives like what was offered Bass Pro?

[Midtowner]

If they locate at CC, they're going to have to compete with Crescent Market.

Crescent Market commands some serious loyalty in Nichols Hills. Folks have been shopping there for generations.

[Steve]

Confirmed

[BDP]

And why not offer them tax incentives like what was offered Bass Pro?

I think when held up against Bass Pro, it's easy to say "why not?". But I think we need to get away from doing this for retailers. We do have several locally owned specialty markets that sell high quality products. Whole Foods will probably be devastating to some of them, which is really why I am not that excited about the prospect of Whole Foods being here, but that's just my preference. Either way and in general, I'm just not comfortable with the idea of using public subsidies and incentives to compete against locally owned businesses and don't think we should be in the business of doing that, be it groceries or sporting goods. I think a Whole Foods should come to this market if and only if the market can support it without assistance. And if they don't come and we still have the demand, hopefully (and ideally, imo) the local specialty sector will thrive and continue to grow to fill all the needs of people demanding high quality food products.

[Richard at Remax]

steve just said it but I'll post his tweet since Im following him

Twitter / Whole Foods Market: @stevelackmeyer Yes, a lea ...

[BDP]

Confirmed

More information please...

...it is a nice day outside, after all. ; )

[fuzzytoad]

If they locate at CC, they're going to have to compete with Crescent Market.

Crescent Market commands some serious loyalty in Nichols Hills. Folks have been shopping there for generations.

Then, by that reasoning, they'll be competing with Crescent Market no matter where they locate in OKC. At least for Nichols Hills shoppers...

So what difference does it make where they locate as long as there's plenty of parking and it doesn't take 2 hours to get there?

But I think we need to get away from doing this for retailers. We do have several locally owned specialty markets that sell high quality products. Whole Foods will probably be devastating to some of them, which is really why I am not that excited about the prospect of Whole Foods being here, but that's just my preference.

Yeah, it's going to be a shame to see many of them forced out of business if/when WF opens up here.. Hopefully some of them will be able to redirect their products to WF so we don't lose *all* locally-produced items..

[BDP]

So what difference does it make where they locate as long as there's plenty of parking and it doesn't take 2 hours to get there?

Exactly. If the advantage of CC is the NH market, and that means competing with an established specialty market, why not put it another location that is just as convenient to everyone else, has a good daytime density, and access to another high end housing market that isn't currently serviced by a nearby specialty market.

[fuzzytoad]

Exactly. If the advantage of CC is the NH market, and that means competing with an established specialty market, why not put it another location that is just as convenient to everyone else, has a good daytime density, and access to another high end housing market that isn't currently serviced by a nearby specialty market.

yeah, like Edmond

[Of Sound Mind]

I think when held up against Bass Pro, it's easy to say "why not?". But I think we need to get away from doing this for retailers. We do have several locally owned specialty markets that sell high quality products. Whole Foods will probably be devastating to some of them, which is really why I am not that excited about the prospect of Whole Foods being here, but that's just my preference. Either way and in general, I'm just not comfortable with the idea of using public subsidies and incentives to compete against locally owned businesses and don't think we should be in the business of doing that, be it groceries or sporting goods. I think a Whole Foods should come to this market if and only if the market can support it without assistance. And if they don't come and we still have the demand, hopefully (and ideally, imo) the local specialty sector will thrive and continue to grow to fill all the needs of people demanding high quality food products.

Fair point. Can't disagree. But I still want to see Whole Foods come to town.

[soonerguru]

Steve,

This confirmation seems to rate higher than others, as it is coming from Whole Foods itself, am I correct?

[gmwise]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think you overestimate the amount of extra time and money people want to spend on grocery shopping, regardless of their age, education level or profession. It's just human nature.

MM,
Please define "human nature"..

[Steve]

Sooner, confirmation is from Whole Foods to me.

[okclee]

Are they confirming a location?

[onthestrip]

Exactly. If the advantage of CC is the NH market, and that means competing with an established specialty market, why not put it another location that is just as convenient to everyone else, has a good daytime density, and access to another high end housing market that isn't currently serviced by a nearby specialty market.

The advantage is more than just NH residents. It's an abundance of housetops, which DT is lacking. They aren't going to expect every customer to have to drive 15 minutes to get there. You guys make some decent points but retailers thnk otherwise. They still have to have lots of density and housetops nearby.

[Spartan]

Onthestrip: Downtown's estimated population is actually around 6,000--including the housing developments that have existed since the 60s. The population of Nichols Hills is what, 5,000? Just saying. NH has 4 times more chimney stacks than they have rooftops.. (just an ironic way of weighing the incomes, by using a different metaphor for demographics). Obviously downtown has no chimneys, unless the Thomas Kincade wet dream at The Hill has fake ones, although the incomes are just as good and probably more disposable when you look at the empty nester and young single demographics.

It looks like this thread is part correct, part wrong. They may have gotten the date very close, with June 2011 sounding pretty reasonable if it's u/c right now and lease signed with Chesapeake. Obviously not downtown though.

I feel like "lease signed" is a confirmation that it is Chesapeake. WF does build and own their own stores in many cities, including Tulsa. However they said "lease signed" meaning someone else is building it for them. Last time I checked I was not aware of any shopping under construction in downtown, although the east end of Bricktown is seeing a lot of mysterious site work right now.. "lease signed" could only mean ONE thing -- Chesapeake.

[Of Sound Mind]

You don't think it could be leasing land rather than building space?

[Steve]

No confirmation on location, but sources tell me it will be Classen Curve - not downtown.