Liquor laws holding back Grocers to open

[okcpulse]

Some of you people are beyond delusional about this city. It is still in 1992.

No real beer, no good shopping, no good jobs, no fios.

Redneck, hicky entertainment.

Medieval laws foring rape and incest victims to undergo intrusive medical procedures so they can see the abomination growing in them and causing them to relive the horror that put it there.

I'm almost astonished that there aren't still witchcraft trials here.

Yeah, because all of the laws are Oklahoma City's fault. I agree with several on this board that the state is holding Oklahoma City back. There is some truth to that.

Oklahoma City is home to Oklahoma's first openly gay law maker. Senator Andrew Rice, OF OKLAHOMA CITY, is pushing for better liquor laws.

The abortion bill was authored by a woman from the rural district the encompasses the town of Lindsay.

As far as shopping goes, it's only a matter of time for that changes. It is what it is.

And as far as redneck, hicky entertainment... please do list. I had no idea that arts festivals, film festivals, Thunder basketball, RedHawks baseball, Oktoberfest, the Medieval Fair and likes are considered "redneck".

[bluedogok]

Yeah, because all of the laws are Oklahoma City's fault. I agree with several on this board that the state is holding Oklahoma City back. There is some truth to that.

Oklahoma City is home to Oklahoma's first openly gay law maker. Senator Andrew Rice, OF OKLAHOMA CITY, is pushing for better liquor laws.

The abortion bill was authored by a woman from the rural district the encompasses the town of Lindsay.

...and Oklahoma isn't the only state facing this city vs. rural population struggle when it comes to politics, pretty much every state is facing it in some form as most states populations have moved from a rural majority to a city majority. Here is a blog about the issue at the "The Reinvented City," last weekend, a conference sponsored by the Nieman Foundation, the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy, and the Harvard Graduate School of Design. In it some ex-mayors (including Seattle's Greg Nickels) advocate abolishing the states.
The Naked City: A cities-vs.-states smackdown.
Planetizen.com - The Reinvented City

Some states that have had larger cities have always tilted a bit more to the city but it is happening even moreso in the traditional rural states like Oklahoma. With the populations so concentrated in the cities but the representation usually favoring rural areas (in numbers) or suburban areas that tend to vote more "rural-like" there will always be this divide.
Even a state like New York has its issues in that NYC has always had issues with the legislature in Albany and I don't think anyone can accuse NYC/New York state of being "hickville".

[Bunty]

Some of you people are beyond delusional about this city. It is still in 1992.

No real beer, no good shopping, no good jobs, no fios.

Redneck, hicky entertainment.

Medieval laws foring rape and incest victims to undergo intrusive medical procedures so they can see the abomination growing in them and causing them to relive the horror that put it there.

I'm almost astonished that there aren't still witchcraft trials here.

Sorry, but Oklahoma has really come a long way since the "Tin Drum vs Tin Badge Debate" of 1999. That and the loony fiasco to ban Penthouse magazine in Tulsa were more embarrassing to live thru than what's been going on now. And nothing in Tulsa suggesting a desire to get rid of witches has happened in a long time.

Hopefully, the new abortion laws will be thrown out with the State Capitol hopefully concentrating more on getting Oklahoma even more in company with the more civilized states of the union.

Oklahoma legislators swear to uphold the Oklahoma Constitution. If they put on a display of bad judgment in passing unconstituional laws, costing taxpayer money, then the voters should have the good sense to vote them out.

[BG918]

Oklahoma legislators swear to uphold the Oklahoma Constitution. If they put on a display of bad judgment in passing unconstituional laws, costing taxpayer money, then the voters should have the good sense to vote them out.

Exactly, all we can do.

[kevinpate]

S...
Oklahoma legislators swear to uphold the Oklahoma Constitution. If they put on a display of bad judgment in passing unconstituional laws, costing taxpayer money, then the voters should have the good sense to vote them out.

However, as the common refrain of a politico is generally "I'm just representing the folk in my district", and as it is very common for a politico to be reelected time and again, one could argue the masses don't really care what is constitutional or not constitutional, they care more about a result.

That's not new to the current majority in the state by any means, but they are somewhat more inclined to see where the lines are, and where the lines might be moved to as well. Such is politics

[progressiveboy]

You got to be kidding. Our new laws have been top news all week and some articles on it were some of the most shared this week. For a few days it was hard to turn on the national news, read any poltical papers, forums, or editorials without seeing a discussion on it and most of it was not pretty. It was even hard to log onto any social media and not see several postings from people around the country who were sharing articles on it. You may not like it, but it does matter, especially in a state that carries so much bad image baggage to begin with.

Most Fortune 500 companies are extremely dependent on their human resources. They want to be where they can hire the best. This generally means well educated people whose services and knowledge are in high demand. These people generally got to where they are in a broader goal to achieve a high quality of life. Now there is always a bottom line factor, of course, but not at the expense of access to the resources they need to be a successful company, which, most importantly, includes a well qualified workforce. There is a reason, as a state with one of the cheapest costs of doing business in the nation, there are only 4 fortune 500 companies here, and that's because cost isn't the only variable in P&L analysis. Revenue is just as important, and today's top companies depend on well educated and well qualified human resources to generate that revenue.

Now, do you really want to say that a company is going to ignore the fact that if they locate in Oklahoma they will have to compete for the services of well educated, highly demanded human resources against companies in others states that don't protect doctors who intentionally lie to their patients? That immediately puts them at a significant disadvantage. They have to convince these people to live here and we should be doing things to be more competitive in this arena, rather than less competitive. Not to mention the grave physical, emotional, and financial risk at which this puts all of Oklahoma's potential mothers and their families.

This has nothing to do with liberal versus conservative political posturing or whether not any company has political tendencies that may or may not gel with the culture here. This is about simple quality of life, which, in most people's opinion is not aided by legislation that outright protects fraudulent medical practices. It's simply insane, disgusting, offensive, and no doubt will have much more affect on corporate relocation and the 3rd party firms that research and negotiate these re-locations than not having wine in our grocery stores ever will.

When it comes to safety and civil liberties, I don't think you can beat that horse to death. And to say it has no negative economic impact on the state to enact laws that put the citizens at risk is just willful ignorance.

Agree! Very good points.

[ddavidson8]

The CEO would be drinking low point beer at a bar. You don't think they order Mich Ultra or Miller 64 or whatever they're called? They watch their weight too.

Anyway, I think buisnesses like Kroger and Safeway (Randall's) have made valid points in why they don't open in Oklahoma.

[blake]

The CEO would be drinking low point beer at a bar. You don't think they order Mich Ultra or Miller 64 or whatever they're called? They watch their weight too.

Anyway, I think buisnesses like Kroger and Safeway (Randall's) have made valid points in why they don't open in Oklahoma.

If he is drinking a Mich Ultra, then I doubt he really cares about beer that much.

[Nermel]

I'd like to see liquor stores be allowed to stay open past 9pm, and on Sundays. If you can goto a bar until 2am, and drink whatever you want, why not be allowed to purchase it for use at home?

[Bunty]

If conservatives want smaller government and for it to keep out of the hair of business, then they should prove it by abolishing the Oklahoma law that bans car sales on Sundays. I have yet to hear what was the true motivation behind the serious need to make such an oppresive law against the car business in Oklahoma.

[ljbab728]

I'd like to see liquor stores be allowed to stay open past 9pm, and on Sundays. If you can goto a bar until 2am, and drink whatever you want, why not be allowed to purchase it for use at home?

I don't have a strong opinion about that but the difference is that you can buy liquor in a liquor store during the posted legal hours and then still use it at home after 9PM or on Sundays. With a little planning that should never be a problem unless you have a last minute craving for a margarita on Sunday and you're out of tequila.

[Larry OKC]

^^^
Many businesses used to be closed on Sundays and had short 9 to 5 type hours. You adapt and plan ahead in situations like that. For some reason the only time I think of going by Chick-filet & Hobby Lobby is on Sundays when they are closed...LOL

[Bunty]

So why do car dealers need a law to keep them closed on Sundays while Hobby Lobby does not? However, under Oklahoma law Chick-filet can open on Sundays if it wants to because what it sells is food.

[Larry OKC]

Not sure why there is a Sunday car sales ban...Hobby Lobby and Chick filet CAN be open but choose not to. Don't think anything in state law forbids/allows Sunday sales based on the sell of food. Hobby Lobby could be open just as many other retailers that don't sell food are open on Sundays.

[Bunty]

You're right. And Oklahoma law also states: (Yippee, horse racing is not banned on Sundays by the state.)

§21-908. The following are the acts forbidden to be done on the first day of the week, the doing of any of which is Sabbath-breaking:

1. Servile labor, except works of necessity or charity.

2. Trades, manufactures, and mechanical employment.

3. All horse racing or gaming except as authorized by the Oklahoma Horse Racing Commission pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Horse Racing Act.

4. All manner of public selling, or offering or exposing for sale publicly, of any commodities, except that meats, bread, fish, and all other foods may be sold at any time, and except that food and drink may be sold to be eaten and drank upon the premises where sold, and drugs, medicines, milk, ice, and surgical appliances and burial appliances and all other necessities may be sold at any time of the day.

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§21-909. It is a sufficient defense in proceedings for servile labor on the first day of the week, to show that the accused uniformly keeps another day of the week as holy time, and does not labor upon that day, and that the labor complained of was done in such manner as not to interrupt or disturb other persons in observing the first day of the week as holy time.

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§21-911. Every person guilty of Sabbath-breaking is punishable by a fine of not more than Twenty-five Dollars ($25.00) for each offense.

[dedndcrusr]

...and how is it constitutional to create laws that restrict business based on specific religious beliefs? I guess if you belong to a religion that holds saturday as the Sabbath you're screwed.

Also, how does my ability to purchass chilled, high-point beer in a grocery store, or on Sunday, violate anyone else's rights?

Midtowner, you're the legal guru. How does this work?

[Midtowner]

...and how is it constitutional to create laws that restrict business based on specific religious beliefs? I guess if you belong to a religion that holds saturday as the Sabbath you're screwed.

Also, how does my ability to purchass chilled, high-point beer in a grocery store, or on Sunday, violate anyone else's rights?

Midtowner, you're the legal guru. How does this work?

Ex Parte Hodges, 65 Okla.Crim. 69, 83 P.2d 201 (1938).

1. The Legislature has power to impose upon the public the civil duty of observing one day in seven as a day of rest, but it is beyond its power to impose the observance of Sunday as a religious duty.

There hasn't been a substantial challenge to these laws as far as I can tell in a very long time though.

[brownb01]

Keep in mind...the law is not that you can't buy strong beer in grocery stores.

True you can't buy it in the grovery store, but you can buy it in the liquor store. And it can't be cold.

Stupid law...I agree.

however, if they Big US brewers wanted to bring strong Bud or Coors (for example) they could...and sell it in liquor stores. They choose not too.

[Larry OKC]

You're right. And Oklahoma law also states: (Yippee, horse racing is not banned on Sundays by the state.)

§21-908. The following are the acts forbidden to be done on the first day of the week, the doing of any of which is Sabbath-breaking:

1. Servile labor, except works of necessity or charity.

2. Trades, manufactures, and mechanical employment.

3. All horse racing or gaming except as authorized by the Oklahoma Horse Racing Commission pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Horse Racing Act.

4. All manner of public selling, or offering or exposing for sale publicly, of any commodities, except that meats, bread, fish, and all other foods may be sold at any time, and except that food and drink may be sold to be eaten and drank upon the premises where sold, and drugs, medicines, milk, ice, and surgical appliances and burial appliances and all other necessities may be sold at any time of the day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
§21-909. It is a sufficient defense in proceedings for servile labor on the first day of the week, to show that the accused uniformly keeps another day of the week as holy time, and does not labor upon that day, and that the labor complained of was done in such manner as not to interrupt or disturb other persons in observing the first day of the week as holy time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
§21-911. Every person guilty of Sabbath-breaking is punishable by a fine of not more than Twenty-five Dollars ($25.00) for each offense.

WOW, I stand corrected. If I am reading this correctly, a lot of retailers may be in violation then.

[skyrick]

Keep in mind...the law is not that you can't buy strong beer in grocery stores.

True you can't buy it in the grovery store, but you can buy it in the liquor store. And it can't be cold.

Stupid law...I agree.

however, if they Big US brewers wanted to bring strong Bud or Coors (for example) they could...and sell it in liquor stores. They choose not too.

See my post (#12) earlier in this thread for the reasons they choose not to.

[GreasyAintEasy]

Keep in mind...the law is not that you can't buy strong beer in grocery stores.

True you can't buy it in the grovery store, but you can buy it in the liquor store. And it can't be cold.

Stupid law...I agree.

however, if they Big US brewers wanted to bring strong Bud or Coors (for example) they could...and sell it in liquor stores. They choose not too.

Bud, Miller, and Coors love our liquor laws. In central Oklahoma we only have two distributors (Premium Beers with AB brands, and Capitol with Coors and Miller) competing for market share in grocery stores and gas stations where the vast majority of beer is sold. In other states they're competing with all the craft brewers and imports. I'm guessing the AB, Premium and Capitol have just as much to do with the status quo as the liquor stores.

[brownb01]

I drove a beer truck in OKC from 1975-79 (Dale Distributing-Miller Brewery) and I remember sometime in there that Byron Gambulous tried to do some legal maneuvering so that he could purchase real Coors (not 3.2) from a dsitributor other than the local Coors franchise (the name of my distinguished former competitor escapes me now.) His contention was that since the product he was interested in was in EXCESS of 3.2% by volume, it was an alcoholic beverage and could thus be sold by any of the liquor distributors instead of the exclusive franchises granted by the major breweries. If I recall correctly, the State agreed with that contention. The Big 3, (Coors, Miller & Bud) stated that if they could not have absolute control over distributorship of what we Okies mistakenly call "strong" beer, they would withdraw their product from the market in Oklahoma, which they did. Oklahoma ABC permits franchising 3.2 beer so they continued to sell their near beer (3.2) to groceries and convenience stores.

In fairness to Coors, at that time their beer was not pasteurized and had to be kept refrigerated from brewery to retail outlet. Their contention is that it would hinder their quality control efforts if they had to monitor numerous wholesalers around the state instead of a relative handful of franchises.

Once that happened it opened the floodgates for a few canny businessmen. From 1980-88 I drove a truck for Rich Distributing. With the Big 3 out of the liquor stores we owned the "strong" beer business in OKC. Our product line was anything other than Miller, Bud, Coors. We had Little Kings, Moosehead, Dos Equis, PBR, Black Label, Ringnes, Heineken, St Pauli Girl, Rheinlander, Guinness, Bass, Harp, Corona, Chihuahua, Tecate, Pearl, Beck's, Grolsch, Foster's, etc. etc. etc.

A question for current residents: Is there still no regular Coors, Bud and Miller available in liquor stores?

BTW, I remember while growing up in OKC that we called real beer "Strong" or "6 point". Real beer is closer to 3.8-4.2 % alcohol by volume. Only the German double-bocks and a couple of others approach 6%. When I was in the biz I remember Kulminator from Germany held the record, close to 7%.

yep...all correct. And no, you cannot get "Strong" coors, bud or miller. You can however, get ANYTHING else....at a liquor store.

[fuzzytoad]

yep...all correct. And no, you cannot get "Strong" coors, bud or miller. You can however, get ANYTHING else....at a liquor store.

not *ANYTHING*

There's a number of breweries that refuse to ship to Oklahoma due to restrictions on refrigeration and the negative impact that warm-temp storage has on the taste of beer... Fat Tire comes immediately to mind...

[metro]

What is all that about grocers won't come here, etc. etc. WF announced they're coming today!!

[king183]

What is all that about grocers won't come here, etc. etc. WF announced they're coming today!!

I hear only crickets. When Whole Foods announced they were coming yesterday, this is exactly what I thought about. People who were saying our liquor laws are preventing us from getting stores like WF didn't know what they were talking about. If they can make a profit doing business here, they'll come here. That's what matters. Clearly they think they can do good business without selling wine or liquor in their stores.

I'm all for reforming our liquor laws, but let's try to use facts in these discussions rather than personal opinion masquerading as fact.