Is OKC ready for an NBA all star weekend?

[onthestrip]

Something more realistic would be shooting for Round 2 of the NCAA March Madness tournament or a College Bowl game at OU.

Round 2, or the regional finals are now being played in domes and large indoor stadiums. The NCAA has started doing this the last couple years. And I doubt OU is interested in hosting a bowl game. Also, finding a sponser would might be difficult at this time.

One sporting event that I think could be attainable is a PGA golf tourney. The owners of Oaktree National talked about this a year or so ago. But then again, finding a sponser is the key.

[rcjunkie]

For Heavens sake rcjunkie, give up dude, the constant negativity will destroy you from the inside.

Andy my good friend, sounds as though you speak from experience.

Pot calling the kettle black alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[andy157]

Andy my good friend, sounds as though you speak from experience.

Pot calling the kettle black alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

come on danielf you can do better than that.

[betts]

Besides hotel space, another thing is the relative lack of direct flights at the airport (two of the "challenges" cited by the Chamber's Convention Center Study that is holding us back from being a Tier II city).

It's true, we don't have the required hotel space and I think it would take more than a convention center hotel to get there. 30,000 rooms is the figure I remember being a minimum. I'm not sure direct flights would be required, as many private jet is the transport of choice for many of the people attending who would care about a direct flight. But, after holding the game in a domed football arena and selling it out, that may be the new venue of choice for the NBA, which makes getting the All Star game an impossibility for OKC.

[betts]

Sorry, duplicate post.

[Larry OKC]

It's true, we don't have the required hotel space and I think it would take more than a convention center hotel to get there. 30,000 rooms is the figure I remember being a minimum. I'm not sure direct flights would be required, as many private jet is the transport of choice for many of the people attending who would care about a direct flight. But, after holding the game in a domed football arena and selling it out, that may be the new venue of choice for the NBA, which makes getting the All Star game an impossibility for OKC.

Betts is back and posting all over the place! You've been missed, hope everything is well.

Can't recall the room amount myself but vaguely recall Stern mentioning both the hotel and direct flights a couple of years ago? My be totally wrong on that.

On the domed football stadium subject. When Mayor Cornett was going thru the MAPS 3 survey and "checking off" the top items (either thru MAPS 3 or bond issues) that we had just about everything covered except for the NFL stadium. He made an interesting comment, something to the effect "It would be nice but why would we build a stadium when we didn't have a team to play in it?" Ummmm, we didn't have an NHL or NBA team when we built the arena either. Had to laugh at that.

[betts]

My mom was sick and in the hospital. She's fine now.

[Larry OKC]

Sorry to hear that but glad everything is ok now. Again, glad you're back

[metro]

Betts is back and posting all over the place! You've been missed, hope everything is well.

Can't recall the room amount myself but vaguely recall Stern mentioning both the hotel and direct flights a couple of years ago? My be totally wrong on that.

On the domed football stadium subject. When Mayor Cornett was going thru the MAPS 3 survey and "checking off" the top items (either thru MAPS 3 or bond issues) that we had just about everything covered except for the NFL stadium. He made an interesting comment, something to the effect "It would be nice but why would we build a stadium when we didn't have a team to play in it?" Ummmm, we didn't have an NHL or NBA team when we built the arena either. Had to laugh at that.

I don't think that was all of his answer, but the thing is we MET all of the minimum NHL and NBA requirements, we can't currently meet the NFL minimum requirements, we don't have the population or TV market.

[Larry OKC]

Metro, I personally agree


Here is the Mayor’s full quote about an NFL stadium, form his January, 2010 State of the City address (City of Oklahoma City | 2010 State of the City):

Number ten, football! A new NFL stadium. Well, that would be cool. And I guess we could build one, but there wouldn’t be a team to play in it. But, seriously, about football and soccer in general, I will note that MAPS for Kids constructed a new football stadium at Douglass High School and the 2007 school bond issue has some money to improve Taft and Speegle stadia. How about half a check mark?

Again I agree but others have insisted that we could easily support an NFL team...some said we didn't really have the population/tv market for the NBA either. Just saying many of the same arguments against the NFL were used against the NBA and that turned out ok. Right?

No doubt it helped tremendously that we had the 2 year track record with the Hornets (instead of theoretical numbers in a report somewhere). Yet we didn't have that track record back in 93 when Mr. Norrick decided to "build it and they will come".

Now if the question is can OKC support 2 pro sports at this time, I think that is a another debate entirely.

[LIL_WAYNE_2012_PREZIDENT]

Not an ALLSTAR city??? Didnt OKC host the AAA "all-star" game a few years back....take that haters.

But seriously, I like how people pointing out realistic things that it takes to host an All-Star game some how turns into that you are not a believer in the city.


I mean is everyone going to be at Skyy Bar and Rok Bar. I am sure Snoop and Co. et al would be real impressed with the VIP areas. And I dont think Russells in the Marriott is exactly quite the hotel bar that clientele is accoustomed too.

Who knows though, maybe I am just skeptical, see you all at the LIL WAYNE concert at the Diamond Ballroom....OKC ALL STAR WEEKEND 2012

see ya there

[metro]

Metro, I personally agree


Here is the Mayor’s full quote about an NFL stadium, form his January, 2010 State of the City address (City of Oklahoma City | 2010 State of the City):



Again I agree but others have insisted that we could easily support an NFL team...some said we didn't really have the population/tv market for the NBA either. Just saying many of the same arguments against the NFL were used against the NBA and that turned out ok. Right?

No doubt it helped tremendously that we had the 2 year track record with the Hornets (instead of theoretical numbers in a report somewhere). Yet we didn't have that track record back in 93 when Mr. Norrick decided to "build it and they will come".

Now if the question is can OKC support 2 pro sports at this time, I think that is a another debate entirely.

Larry, I'm all for the build it and they will come mentality, honestly I think it works in most cases. Cities like Philadelphia, New York City, D.C. and others were designed for greatness, a lot in part due to their original street grid structure. Now I know some may think that is laughable, but if you study freemasonry and those cities history it makes more sense. Our street grid system is great for getting around, but it isn't designed for greatness. Notice how the most notable icons in our city are among Classen Blvd, Lincoln Blvd, etc. Our greatest structures were built on boulevards and streets designed for greatness. The same argument is made recently on mixed-use developments and how we have no high end retail, no one has built a shopping center designed for greatness/high-end.

My point is we can design an NFL stadium, but history has proven you need a much bigger TV market than what NBA needs to be profitable. We can't change this without at least doubling if not tripling our population. I was one of those who "knew" or at least believed that we could support NHL or NBA because of the different requirements and what it takes to make a team profitable. I'm not a naysayer, I just don't think NFL is being realistic, I do think NBA/NHL was realistic even before we landed the Hornets, they were just the opportunity we took to get the nation to belive. Show us a city our size that has supported two major league (top 4 sports) franchises successfully longterm and make us believers. Jacksonville, Nashville, Charlotte, San Antonio (tried to get 2) are all much bigger than us with more Fortune 500/white collar jobs and they all struggled. I don't buy the "we're a football state so it'll work" bit.

[Larry OKC]

Again, Metro I tend to agree, the economy of scale with the NFL is undoubtedly greater than NHL/NBA. Did find it interesting (don't have the details or links but it was over somewhere in Doug's blog) that a domed football stadium was actually on the drawing boards at one time (think it was pre-MAPS, probably during the 80s oil boom(?). NFL or not, don't know but am sure that was the idea they had in mind.

[HOT ROD]

I think when OKC gets above 1.5M in the MSA (within 15 miles from downtown) then the city could support the NFL (and OU) along with the NBA. The key, however, will be OWNERSHIP.

If Clay Bennett could own the NFL franchise and the city builds a top knotch stadium that doesn't compete with OU's (meaning, smaller with more luxury to appeal to pro-fans), it will easily work. But such a stadium will be costly, even for OKC and where would we put it? In the Co Op?

Like I said, all of this becomes much easier once OKC's MSA goes over 1.5M and the Thunder develop a solid fanbase. If Clay could own it, then he could co-market the two and share staff and still have a 'monopoly' on the city's sports market. I know people don't like monopolies, but in the sports world they are necessary unless you are a New York, Chicago, or LA/SF.

As for the other points, Im not buying them. There are cities smaller than OKC with NFL and another pro sport with smaller corporate bases. Also, the NFL gets national marketing regardless of the market they are in - being they have the luxury of being America's #1 sport.

If we build something like Seattle's Qwest Field, then it could serve as a multipurpose stadium (hence all star game potential) which would open up a lot of things for OKC provided we have the hotel space.

Again, I think OKC can do it - but it will take a few years of prosperity and population growth to make it successful. The last thing any of us want to see is OKC to get another league and both fail.

Yes, OKC is football country - so it will work (NFL is on Sundays, occasionally Mondays and Thursdays), so there's little competition with OU. OU will always have it's base, but we need a middle class contingent that could support/wants the NFL.

If Paul Allen wants to sell the Seahawks, I would urge Clay and Co to go snap it up to at least get in the game. From there, we could see what happens.

One more thing, I hope OKC supports the AFL. It might not be one of the big 4 major league franchises, but it is major league - and since it is football in football country, you all had better support it!

[ljbab728]

Again, Metro I tend to agree, the economy of scale with the NFL is undoubtedly greater than NHL/NBA. Did find it interesting (don't have the details or links but it was over somewhere in Doug's blog) that a domed football stadium was actually on the drawing boards at one time (think it was pre-MAPS, probably during the 80s oil boom(?). NFL or not, don't know but am sure that was the idea they had in mind.

Yes, I remember at one time there was a serious proposal for a domed stadium in Oklahoma City. I believe it was supposed to be at the fair grounds and initially to seat around 40 - 50 thousand people. I think one of the inspirations was to get the National Finals Rodeo back from Las Vegas.

[HOT ROD]

just a thought/question.

if the city were to become serious again about a stadium, would people want it downtown or at the fairgrounds? or somewhere else?

we've seen the success that sports has given to downtown (and the city in general with the arenas being downtown), would we also want a stadium downtown?

[ljbab728]

just a thought/question.

if the city were to become serious again about a stadium, would people want it downtown or at the fairgrounds? or somewhere else?

we've seen the success that sports has given to downtown (and the city in general with the arenas being downtown), would we also want a stadium downtown?

In my opinion, the best option for a stadium would be along the South bank of the river across from downtown. I don't see any areas in the immediate downtown vicinity that would work for that and which could include any significant parking which would be required. We don't want any vast new parking lots built in the CBD taking up valuable development space.

[metro]

If Clay Bennett could own the NFL franchise and the city builds a top knotch stadium that doesn't compete with OU's (meaning, smaller with more luxury to appeal to pro-fans), it will easily work.

There are cities smaller than OKC with NFL and another pro sport with smaller corporate bases. Also, the NFL gets national marketing regardless of the market they are in - being they have the luxury of being America's #1 sport.

If Paul Allen wants to sell the Seahawks, I would urge Clay and Co to go snap it up to at least get in the game. From there, we could see what happens.

Bennett is not as rich as you guys think. Bennett's crew, and especially Bennett, don't have enough money to buy another franchise. I'm willing to bet they are close to max on being leveraged and shrewd enough not to leverage any more wealth on a franchise.

As far as a location for an "NFL" stadium, I'd prefer the fairgrounds area over DT. They could have it near the river there at the Amarillo Junction. They would have great zoom ins of the river area and DT. NFL stadiums need a sea of parking unlike NBA arenas. It would also jumpstart some development that is much more needed over by the fairgrounds area.

[Larry OKC]

Ran across an article not to long ago that that is what the Dell Campus was supposed to do. How much development around their campus has happened or is this just another Bass Pro type deal? Promises made and then forgotten or explained away?

[ljbab728]

Ran across an article not to long ago that that is what the Dell Campus was supposed to do. How much development around their campus has happened or is this just another Bass Pro type deal? Promises made and then forgotten or explained away?

If you look at the area along 15th street going west to Meridian and beyond, there has been significant development. Most of that is closer to Meridian but having the Dell Campus and the 15th street reconstruction all the way to MacArthur is really opening that area up. I see all of that area along 15th being developed very heavily in the next 20 years. A company like Dell can always have employment ups and downs but this is absolutely not a bad deal for the city and has taken an area that was basically an empty eyesore and turned it into something that is at least mildly attractive.

[Larry OKC]

If you look at the area along 15th street going west to Meridian and beyond, there has been significant development. Most of that is closer to Meridian but having the Dell Campus and the 15th street reconstruction all the way to MacArthur is really opening that area up. I see all of that area along 15th being developed very heavily in the next 20 years. A company like Dell can always have employment ups and downs but this is absolutely not a bad deal for the city and has taken an area that was basically an empty eyesore and turned it into something that is at least mildly attractive.

Really? I just drove by (looking from the interstate) there Saturday and the surrounding area looked just like it did before Dell built there. I agree the Del campus itself is a vast improvement over what was there (apparently a City owned "eyesore"). Maybe development will happen in 20 years (but Dell could be long gone by then). We (think it was Spartan that brought it up) had a discussion in some other thread (http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...-paycom-2.html, #28) about the amount of jobs that were supposed to have come with various schemes (including Dell) but never seemed to materialize.

Not taking a position but asking questions...has it delivered as promised?

City of Oklahoma City | Dell, Inc. Project

What was the City’s portion of the incentive package?
$5.5 million in job creation incentives - which will be funded by a forgivable section 108 loan and up to $11.7 million in infrastructure improvements. The $11.7 will be funded by a new Tax Increment Financing District.

What kind of return do we expect on this investment?
Based on a three year ramp up of 3,000 employees, we anticipate an annual direct economic impact of $246.5 million and an indirect economic impact of $135.9 million in year three. During the l 4 year ramp up period, we anticipate a cumulative overall economic impact of $764.7 million.

From a taxes standpoint, we anticipate a direct real estate tax impact of $664,807 over the initial three year period and Indirect Property tax impact of $5,544,246. By year three, we are anticipating an annual direct property tax to be $329,526 and indirect property taxes to be 3.1 million. As for sales tax, we anticipate n annual local sales tax impact of $2.0 million.

Why did the City provide such an attractive incentive package?
The City sees this Dell facility as an important, strategic decision. This facility will provide good jobs and creates an anchor development on the Oklahoma River that will spur housing, entertainment and other amenities. If you look at the development that has occurred in other cities around Dell sites, you will see the enormous potential this location brings to our City.

What is the value of the land? How does this impact the river development?
The land chosen for this site was owned by the City and was being held in reserve for the development of the river. There will be a revision of the river’s master plan to reflect this change in development. This facility will greatly enhance the value of surrounding properties, much the same way the MAPS projects have enhanced the value of Downtown and Bricktown property.

Again, my question is, has all of the above actually happened?

A forgivable loan sounds like they didn't have to pay it back?

Has the $11.7M thru the TIF materialized (or on track)?

Has the return on investment been achieved?

Have there been 3,000 decent paying jobs ($40K +)?

Have the various taxes lived up to projections?

Has the development of "housing, entertainment and other amenities" happened in the same way as it did "that has occurred in other cities around Dell sites"?

[ljbab728]

Really? I just drove by (looking from the interstate) there Saturday and the surrounding area looked just like it did before Dell built there. I agree the Del campus itself is a vast improvement over what was there (apparently a City owned "eyesore"). Maybe development will happen in 20 years (but Dell could be long gone by then). We (think it was Spartan that brought it up) had a discussion in some other thread (http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...-paycom-2.html, #28) about the amount of jobs that were supposed to have come with various schemes (including Dell) but never seemed to materialize.

Not taking a position but asking questions...has it delivered as promised?

City of Oklahoma City | Dell, Inc. Project



Again, my question is, has all of the above actually happened?

A forgivable loan sounds like they didn't have to pay it back?

Has the $11.7M thru the TIF materialized (or on track)?

Has the return on investment been achieved?

Have there been 3,000 decent paying jobs ($40K +)?

Have the various taxes lived up to projections?

Has the development of "housing, entertainment and other amenities" happened in the same way as it did "that has occurred in other cities around Dell sites"?

I'm not taking a position on whether Dell has delivered as promissed. I just contend that this area wouldn't have changed at all without Dell and there would be little oportunity for further development to the West for years. I don't think anyone ever expected that the public housing to the South would be moved or would change and that's the main area you see near Dell from the highway.

[rcjunkie]

I'm not taking a position on whether Dell has delivered as promissed. I just contend that this area wouldn't have changed at all without Dell and there would be little oportunity for further development to the West for years. I don't think anyone ever expected that the public housing to the South would be moved or would change and that's the main area you see near Dell from the highway.

And this has what to do with the NBA and All Star Weekend ?

[Larry OKC]

And this has what to do with the NBA and All Star Weekend ?

Nothing really but it went something like this....Domed stadiums for All Star Weekend >> NFL >> Fairgrounds location >> promises made but not kept >> Bass Pro >> Dell

[ljbab728]

And this has what to do with the NBA and All Star Weekend ?

Junkie, I didn't bring this up. I was just responding to previous comments. If that isn't allowed, I'm sorry.