About the Ford Center: Were we lied to?

[megax11]

Ford Center Renovation Plan Altered Due To Budget Constraints

So they're reconsidering what they said would be done, since they say they didn't make enough off tax collection?

Why did we vote yes (for those who did), if they could alter the plans at any time?

So when the 2010-2011 begins, will we not have what all those PDF docs showed? Namely all of those additions to all floors, a grand entry, and all the other bells and whistles?

[dismayed]

I would be in support of extending the tax another six months to a year to get that last $20 million made up.

[bluedogok]

No one was lied to, what was proposed was all based on budgetary projections which is nowhere near an exact science, that's "life" when building with cash (or a "cash like" funding model). It's still better than issuing bonds and having a 30 year boat anchor tied around your cities credit rating like Dallas has with the American Airlines Center.

[jbrown84]

Pretty sure we didn't vote on an itemized list of specific upgrades and features. And the renderings certainly weren't shown on the ballot.

[ljbab728]

I don't see this as a major issue. Any proposed projects approved based on sales tax collections instead of having money already in hand have to have some flexibility to make adjustments based on what money is available. All of the Maps projects are just proposals and are not guaranteed to be exactly the same as originally proposed or hoped for.

[mugofbeer]

So let me see if you are saying this. Don't collect enough tax money to do what was proposed on the Ford Center but spend the money anyway? Sure, I'd rather see the tax collection period lengthened until $X are collected but I am not sure they can word a tax collection law that way and I KNOW they can't once it has already been voted for.

No one anticipated the worst national economic slowdown since the Great Depression - and certainly a severe slowdown in OKC. Tax collection expectations can only be forcasted, just like budgets and just like the weather. Sometimes the forecasts miss. I certainly see no evidence of anyone lying about anything.

[andy157]

Ford Center Renovation Plan Altered Due To Budget Constraints

So they're reconsidering what they said would be done, since they say they didn't make enough off tax collection?

Why did we vote yes (for those who did), if they could alter the plans at any time?

So when the 2010-2011 begins, will we not have what all those PDF docs showed? Namely all of those additions to all floors, a grand entry, and all the other bells and whistles?

Lied to? Maybe not. Smoke blown-up your a..? Probably. Welcome to the real world. They have to have something for their justification for a MAPS4. Finishing the Ford Center for the forth time is as good a reason as any.

[andy157]

No one was lied to, what was proposed was all based on budgetary projections which is nowhere near an exact science, that's "life" when building with cash (or a "cash like" funding model). It's still better than issuing bonds and having a 30 year boat anchor tied around your cities credit rating like Dallas has with the American Airlines Center.

So we are bond debt free?

[ljbab728]

So we are bond debt free?

Andy, that's not a bad point but has no relation to the Ford Center issue.

[andy157]

Andy, that's not a bad point but has no relation to the Ford Center issue.

Fair enough. Someone needs to let bluedogok know. You going to do it, or do you want me to?

[andy157]

Pretty sure we didn't vote on an itemized list of specific upgrades and features. And the renderings certainly weren't shown on the ballot.

You have got to be.... nevermind.

[Larry OKC]

Ford Center Renovation Plan Altered Due To Budget Constraints

So they're reconsidering what they said would be done, since they say they didn't make enough off tax collection?

Why did we vote yes (for those who did), if they could alter the plans at any time?

So when the 2010-2011 begins, will we not have what all those PDF docs showed? Namely all of those additions to all floors, a grand entry, and all the other bells and whistles?

About the only thing that has been axed is the warm-up court (think it was to be part of the add-on sf but can't recall exactly where). They are looking at cost cutting measures to keep the improvements within the amount of tax collected.

Andy, that's not a bad point but has no relation to the Ford Center issue.

As far as the bond issue question, I haven't read anything to indicate that long term type debt (bond issue) has been used in the case of the Ford Center improvements, but can't categorically rule it out either. I don't have the links handy but $6M in bonds were used for MAPS 3 projects BEFORE we had even voted on it (authorized to use up to $26M). Used to buy properties in the MAPS 3 Central Park area. This bond money went back to at least the 2007 General Obligation bond issue. So again, it is possible that bond money has or could be used to make up the sales tax shortfall (bit reportedly it doesn't look like that is the way they are leaning).

There was however a line of credit taken out by the City to get the Ford Center renovations started since the tax hadn't begun. This is all perfectly legal and language authorizing it was on the ballot and in the ordinance (just like it was with MAPS & MAPS 3 too). While not long term debt, it is still debt and does have to be paid back most likely with interest. I have lost my link to the Oklahoman article reporting this (recall it being a higher amount than in the memo, but again can't swear to it) but from the City Manager's memo to the Council:

Sports Facilities Improvements - This category provides for the financial management of the Sports Facilities Improvement projects. A Temporary Sales Tax was approved by the citizens of Oklahoma City on March 4, 2008. Projects funded include improvements and expansion of the Ford Center along with the construction of a NBA Practice Facility. The Sales Tax goes into effect on January 1, 2009. To allow for initial design and development to begin, a Sports Facilities Sales Tax Line of Credit was approved by the trust on April 15th, 2008 in the amount of $20.0 million. Once the Sales Tax revenue is received, the funds will be transferred to the OCPPA for repayment on the Line of Credit and also for remaining project expenditures. The budget for this category for fiscal year 2008-09 is $47,330,121.

[rcjunkie]

Lied to? Maybe not. Smoke blown-up your a..? Probably. Welcome to the real world. They have to have something for their justification for a MAPS4. Finishing the Ford Center for the forth time is as good a reason as any.

For Heavens sake Andy, give up dude, the constant negativity will destroy you from the inside.

[Luke]

For Heavens sake Andy, give up dude, the constant negativity will destroy you from the inside.

"Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..." -Master Yoda

[Kerry]

Is there anything in the MAPS III language that would prevent MAPS III money from being used?

[G.Walker]

All the upgrades will be done, just takes time, it might not get done when we want, but it will eventually get done. We are doing good, given the economic situation, if they really wanted to, they could scratch everything, but just imagine when the economy recovers how many developmentss will get underway and get off hold.


Rome wasn't built in a day...

[Larry OKC]

Is there anything in the MAPS III language that would prevent MAPS III money from being used?

Not a word (as long as it fits into the very vague definition of "capital improvement" which Ford Center improvements would definitely qualify) and while it is a possibility the chances seem low mainly do to timing. They would have to divert the funds in short order and that would not be a good start. But as long as majority of the Council decides to, they certainly could.

[Wambo36]

For Heavens sake Andy, give up dude, the constant negativity will destroy you from the inside.

RC brother, someone has to be the ying to your yang. For someone who is so completely down on everything coming out of Washington these days, you certainly are blindly optomistic when it comes to our local people. The way I see it, they're still just politicians.

[metro]

This isn't any new news, we discussed this awhile back in the Ford Center thread.

[dop]

From the article it says that less than 20% is being cut, and that the cuts are in areas fans will not notice. I think they mean employee entrance and offices....not the grand entry, etc. Not sure ,but thats my take! lol

[BoulderSooner]

From the article it says that less than 20% is being cut, and that the cuts are in areas fans will not notice. I think they mean employee entrance and offices....not the grand entry, etc. Not sure ,but thats my take! lol

yep and cutting out the practice court lets them add an outdoor big screen

[mugofbeer]

Lied to? Maybe not. Smoke blown-up your a..? Probably. Welcome to the real world. They have to have something for their justification for a MAPS4. Finishing the Ford Center for the forth time is as good a reason as any.

Yes Andy, welcome to the real world of revenue forcasting. Do you think you could have done a better job? Watch CNBC for a while and see how often every day they talk about corporate earnings coming in above or below estimates. Its the exact same thing. They can't even get it right quarter to quarter, much less years into the future.

[BDP]

...only 52 percent of residents’ apparel purchases are within Oklahoma City.

Read more: NewsOK

Maybe if we started shopping in our own city, we wouldn't have had this problem in the first place, even with the recession. All of our sales tax initiatives could be shorter and/or maybe cheaper. AND, as a bonus, maybe we'd get all of these chain stores people seem to lust after around here.

Just a thought.

[andy157]

Yes Andy, welcome to the real world of revenue forcasting. Do you think you could have done a better job? Watch CNBC for a while and see how often every day they talk about corporate earnings coming in above or below estimates. Its the exact same thing. They can't even get it right quarter to quarter, much less years into the future.

Promises made, excuses given. Revenue is down, cost are up. Sorry mug, but I've lost my blind faith.

[mugofbeer]

You didn't answer the question. Given the fact professional accountants all across the country can't predict expenses and revenues for businesses on a quarter-by-quarter basis, could you do better than a city accountant trying to predict tax revenue over a several year period?