OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points

[bluedogok]

Spartan, are you saying that Tulsa now requires no parking at all for businesses?
I will never agree that no zoning, like Houston has, promotes anything like a great urban area. The booming economy that Houston has enjoyed for years has much more to do with that. If Dallas and Kansas City have higher land values than OKC how can that be the fault of city planners?
I'm not trying to make excuses for everything that the city does because I know they make mistakes, I just don't think they can be blamed for everything like you're trying to do.

Houston has no zoning is a fallacy....
Certain areas of Houston have zoning and other areas may not have "official zoning" but have a ton of restrictions on them to effectively be called zoning. Try building a plant in the Montrose area...you would see real quick that there is "effective zoning" in Houston. Even a "nice" office building can have a hard time getting through the approval process in certain areas.

[ljbab728]

Houston has no zoning is a fallacy....
Certain areas of Houston have zoning and other areas may not have "official zoning" but have a ton of restrictions on them to effectively be called zoning. Try building a plant in the Montrose area...you would see real quick that there is "effective zoning" in Houston. Even a "nice" office building can have a hard time getting through the approval process in certain areas.

I'm not personally familiar with Houston's zoning or lack of zoning. I was responding to Spartan's statement that Houston didn't have zoning and his opinion that it was a plus that OKC should follow.

[chuckdiesel]

Another Roderick puppet? I'm so sick of people thinking they can throw around random words like "Fuktard" where it is completely unnecessary just because it's an "internet message board." If a courtroom is the only place you don't act and talk like you do, that says a lot about you. I'll say it again, it's clear you need to grow-up. Wanting to see a successful city forum free from juvenile crassness is not being "wound too tight."

ugh, get over yourself. The general condescending, stuffy, self-inflated yuppie attitude around this board believe it or not turns away many more would-be posters than the occasional slang term thrown out there. Have a good day. And yes as much as you hate to admit it, this is just a message board where the gloves are off. If it is more than that to you then you may want to look into making more friends.

[Superhyper]

ugh, get over yourself. The general condescending, stuffy, self-inflated yuppie attitude around this board believe it or not turns away many more would-be posters than the occasional slang term thrown out there. Have a good day. And yes as much as you hate to admit it, this is just a message board where the gloves are off. If it is more than that to you then you may want to look into making more friends.

I don't think many people here would agree with you on that. I fail to see how wanting a place for civil discussion with fellow OKC'ers is stuffy or condescending in anyway. This community is entitled to set the tone for these boards as it sees fit. If it doesn't want this place to devolve into the newsok comments sections, that is well within its right.

[ljbab728]

ugh, get over yourself. The general condescending, stuffy, self-inflated yuppie attitude around this board believe it or not turns away many more would-be posters than the occasional slang term thrown out there. Have a good day. And yes as much as you hate to admit it, this is just a message board where the gloves are off. If it is more than that to you then you may want to look into making more friends.

Chuck, the word you're referring to is not a slang term. It is profanity which has no place here. Remember there are minors who read these posts frequently. We don't want to give the impression that we approve. Being stuffy has nothing to do with it.

[soonerguru]

Chuckdiesel clearly hasn't been on this board long if he thinks it's a message board "where the gloves are off." Until recently, this board had few if any flareups. It was actually one of the most civil message boards on the Internet.

[ljbab728]

Chuckdiesel clearly hasn't been on this board long if he thinks it's a message board "where the gloves are off." Until recently, this board had few if any flareups. It was actually one of the most civil message boards on the Internet.

I agree Sooner. Many of us disagree vigorously but it usually is at least civil. I hope this never becomes a "gloves off" board.

[Shake2005]

This might be part of why OKC is behind with retail

Per capita income

Oklahoma County: $41,713
Tulsa County: $46,043

NewsOK

[Spartan]

This might be part of why OKC is behind with retail

Per capita income

Oklahoma County: $41,713
Tulsa County: $46,043

NewsOK

That's not true swake--there are still as many "higher demographic" people in OKC as Tulsa even if Tulsa is slightly smaller. You can even throw out Tulsa's slightly lower cost of living as well... Philly's avg income is like $29,000, and they have all the stores we want to attract. Cleveland, Memphis, San Antonio, New Orleans, etc (poorer cities)--all have their share of stores we want, too. Red herring.

The simple matter of the fact is that OKC's available retail development looks like crap compared to what's all over Tulsa/KC, and hell, even San Antonio (La Canterra) to some extent. How much longer is our excuse going to be, "OMG that city is 19.43843543% bigger than OKC! Apples and oranges!"

[Larry OKC]

That's not true swake...

Read the linked article, it IS what it said. Now if you dispute the article, talk to the Oklahoman & "the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce"...LOL

Personal income grew 6 percent during 2008 in Oklahoma County to an amount of $41,713 per capita, the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce, indicates. The numbers are the latest available.

Oklahoma County was second only to Tulsa County, where personal income rose 4.8 percent to $46,043. The lowest in the state was Adair County at $22,402.

[ljbab728]

Read the linked article, it IS what it said. Now if you dispute the article, talk to the Oklahoman & "the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce"...LOL

Larry, I think what Spartan means is that the exact numbers of higher demograpic people in OKC is more than Tulsa. Having a higher per capital income is totally different.

[Rover]

The key is not in the AVERAGE, but how many of a certain demographic. OKC has plenty at the higher demographics..just as many as Tulsa. I know Tulsans like to keep thinking themselves superior, so if it makes them feel good...great.

Oklahoma County includes plenty of rural area with lower income and doesn't include Cleveland county which includes a high income area (Norman).

Truth is different depending on where you want to draw the lines.

[Kerry]

There is probably something to the lack of quality shopping centers. Jacksonville didn't have squat for retail until a few years ago when the St. Johns Town Center was built. High end retailers flocked to the site after it was built. We still don't have them all, but we have most. Jacksonville, is just as conservative, just as rural, just as poor, and just as ???? as OKC is. The difference is Jax has a quality development for these stores to move into.

Let's say White House/Black Market did want to open in OKC tomorrow - where would they locate? Until a local developer steps up to the plate and creates a place, I don't think OKC will see anything. 'Build it and they will come' may or may not be true - but one thing is for sure - 'don't build it and they won't come' is 100% true.

[metro]

Kerry, they'd probably locate in Norman, because we already have two WHBM (one in penn and one in Edmond's Spring Creek).

[bluedogok]

There is probably something to the lack of quality shopping centers. Jacksonville didn't have squat for retail until a few years ago when the St. Johns Town Center was built. High end retailers flocked to the site after it was built. We still don't have them all, but we have most. Jacksonville, is just as conservative, just as rural, just as poor, and just as ???? as OKC is. The difference is Jax has a quality development for these stores to move into.

Let's say White House/Black Market did want to open in OKC tomorrow - where would they locate? Until a local developer steps up to the plate and creates a place, I don't think OKC will see anything. 'Build it and they will come' may or may not be true - but one thing is for sure - 'don't build it and they won't come' is 100% true.

Some of that is very true, The Domain here was developed by Endeavor, a local developer of ex-Trammell Crow Co. people who got Simon to sign on the dotted line and developed it for Simon, which is how they operate most of the time. Simon doesn't develop, they get others to do a "turn-key" development. Simon owns/controls the retail portion of The Domain and Endeavor controls the other portion with the office and hotels. There were also city incentives involved in the project which was a brownfield redevelopment of an old IBM manufacturing facility. We have to fill out an "employment statement" every quarter for Simon that they have to turn into the city.

If someone has the right plan in place to attract a Simon, then it would be possible to get the proper kind of development in place. It is a chicken/egg thing for the most part.

[Kerry]

Kerry, they'd probably locate in Norman, because we already have two WHBM (one in penn and one in Edmond's Spring Creek).

LOL - bad example I guess - but you get the point.

[MikeOKC]

LOL - bad example I guess - but you get the point.

I get your point, Kerry. And yes, you are right. There's nowhere for a nice upscale chain store to locate in OKC right now. We are the largest city in this region without a large lifestyle center.

[metro]

LOL - bad example I guess - but you get the point.

Of course, just a moment.

[progressiveboy]

Saw this in todays OKC Biz.



http://okc.biz/article/04-27-2010/St...nn_Square.aspx

[MikeOKC]

Saw this in todays OKC Biz.



http://okc.biz/article/04-27-2010/St...nn_Square.aspx

Is it this Vans? The picture in the OKC Biz story sure doesn't fit the Vans I've heard of, which is a teen shop:

Vans is an American based manufacturer of sneakers, BMX shoes, snowboarding boots, skateboarding and other shoe types catering primarily to the skateboarder/surfer/snowboarder youth market. They also sell apparel and accessories catering to this same youth market.

Vans

[metro]

Yes, Vans is a very popular brand and has been for decades. Even 30-40 year olds wear it because they've been around so long. They sponsor the popular annual Vans Off The Wall Tour as well.

[shane453]

What about median household income? Which is a better figure of comparison? I always understood that median figures were better for this type of comparison because it eliminated the effects of outliers- and I think Tulsa has a lot more super-rich outliers that skew its numbers up.

Tulsa
Estimated median household income in 2008: $39,657 (it was $35,316 in 2000)

OKC
Estimated median household income in 2008: $43,821 (it was $34,947 in 2000)

(city-data.com)

[MikeOKC]

Yes, Vans is a very popular brand and has been for decades. Even 30-40 year olds wear it because they've been around so long. They sponsor the popular annual Vans Off The Wall Tour as well.

Well....of course!....who wouldn't know the Vans Off The Wall Tour?

[Spartan]

Read the linked article, it IS what it said. Now if you dispute the article, talk to the Oklahoman & "the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce"...LOL

No of course the stats are correct, but I was just saying it's not THE reason.

[betts]

Read the linked article, it IS what it said. Now if you dispute the article, talk to the Oklahoman & "the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce"...LOL

On the other hand, we have significantly more people in our metropolitan area than in Tulsa. It might well be that we have more people in the aggregate with the kind of purchasing power these stores are looking for than Tulsa. That's something average income data doesn't help you determine.