OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points

[okcpulse]

Okay, fair enough...

Where are OKC's equivalents to the following developments:

1 Utica Square
2 Highland Park Village
3 Country Club Plaza
4 Southlake Town Square
5 Zona Rosa
6 NorthPark Mall (Dallas..not OKC lol)
7 Dallas Galleria
8 Tulsa/Dallas/KC Whole Foods locations
9 RiverWalk Crossing
10 Tulsa/Dallas/KC IMAX Theater locations
11 Stonewood Hills (the suburbs..where Bass Pro belongs)
12 Legends/Village West
13 Crown Center
14 18th/Vine new urbanist center (I forget the name)
15 Oak Park Mall
16 Town Center Plaza
17 One Nineteen in Leawood
18 Mockingbird Station
19 Stonebriar Centre
20 Grapevine Mills
21 Neiman Marcus (their flagship original store is still in DTD)
22 Crescent Court

Here's what OKC has. Penn Square Mall, eh..not really cutting it. Nichols Hills Plaza gets an LOL. And 50 Penn Place is long gone. That's IT. Now, Classen Curve really has the chance to be something nice for OKC but only because of its tenant base. Balliet's and some of these awesome restaurant concepts have been desperate for quality space in OKC for a long time and have really settled with Classen Curve IMO. Classen Curve still amounts to maybe Crescent Court (Dallas) or One Nineteen (KCK burbs) and nowhere near the Plaza or Utica Square.

Evidence that Tulsa/Dallas/KC have better retail space available?

Not to mention that OKC still has NO equivalent of upscale urban neighborhood shopping that's available en masse in Brookside (Tulsa, or KC) or Greenville Ave in Dallas. However major major kudos for The Plaza District.. if you haven't checked out this area, you guys have to it's NW 16th between Classen and Penn. Probably 4/5 new local clothing shops, tons of live music, some new urban living options, 2 new coffee shops, art galleries and much more. I was sorta surprised and thought I was back in Calgary when I checked it out recently. This is one bright spot that OKC has on the horizon and a lot of it just has to do with Jeff Struble just making it happen and raising the bar on his own. Why can't more developers other than in OKC other than AMC just make stuff happen on their own and raise the bar?

Let's please stop comparing OKC (1.3 million) do DFW (6.7 million). That's a giant difference.

Now, as for Tulsa. Utica Square has a good thing going. We need something similar and won't me surprised to see it come about in the near future. We have the market.

As for Whole Foods? Let's not go there. You cannot count that against OKC. Ask Whole Foods. They're the ones dragging their feet.

Spring Creek in Edmond is a very great start.

IMAX has a location in Quail Springs Mall.

And KC is almost twice the size of OKC's market. So again, comparisons are pointless. KC and Dallas are both well-established markets. OKC is just getting started.

I am of the impression that we've taken the good ol' "We're not gonna maker it... poor us" approach.

I do agree, however, that local developers need to be nailed to the wall. They are partially responsible for a city's quaility of life, bottom line or not. We are just being vocal in the wrong place... an internet message board that they a) don't give a crap about and b) don't even know about.

[stlokc]

Spartan, I don't know why you LOL at Nichols Hills Plaza. It has the ideal location and the perimeter is a good size. If some infill were added, and it were spruced up and modernized, and marketed agressively, there's no reason it couldn't turn into a Utica Square. Obviously it's not there right now. I likewise think Western from 36th practically all the way to Wilshire has similiarly good bones. It just takes people doing it rather than talking about it like we all tend to do. (I'm as guilty as anybody).

[onthestrip]

I think is a back burner issue (matter a fact an off the stove and in the freezer issue).

It was just a short time ago when the focus of conversations on this board and everywhere else in the world was how people were just too poor to afford healthcare.

Now we want to whine about the lack of upscale retail. I think we could all do without upscale retail for a little while. The last thing we need is more crap to put on over extended credit lines that will go in a closet, on a shelf or some other corner of the house to collect dust until we give it to Goodwill.

I think the new focus needs to be pay off your debts, build a emergency savings fund and only buy the things with cash.

We can worry about upscale retail when the majority of the population understands the value of a dollar and practices the concepts of a debt free household.

You can do this if you like but let other people do what they wish with their money/credit. Besides, upcsale stores arent usually kept in business by broke credit card using shoppers. Its from the ones that have alot of spare cash to throw around, and OKC has a large, although ignored, population of these types.

[onthestrip]

Spartan, I don't know why you LOL at Nichols Hills Plaza. It has the ideal location and the perimeter is a good size. If some infill were added, and it were spruced up and modernized, and marketed agressively, there's no reason it couldn't turn into a Utica Square. Obviously it's not there right now. I likewise think Western from 36th practically all the way to Wilshire has similiarly good bones. It just takes people doing it rather than talking about it like we all tend to do. (I'm as guilty as anybody).

Infill added? And where would people park? There just isnt enough room. You cant compare Utica to NHP, mainly because of the size of the two, with Utica being much bigger.

[stlokc]

Onthestrip-Chespeake bought those apartments on 63rd, right? Couldn't they do a nice structured garage there (with retail on the bottom level), or the same thing across 63rd adjacent to the building where Varsity used to be? For that matter, if I remember correctly (and I might not), I think there is excess space in the middle of the plaza itself. Of course all this costs money and they have to be convinced it would be worth it.

[dismayed]

Perhaps better questions to ask would be...

Why is Albuquerque significantly smaller in population than OKC, yet already has a couple of Whole Foods, several cool "districts" or lifestyle destinations or whatever you want to call them, etc.? Same question about Tulsa? New Orleans (pre-disaster)?

Why is the Austin MSA population say maybe a third bigger than OKC yet the city seems to have 10x as much commerce? Same question about Louisville... not much bigger yet more of everything... why? Same question for Raleigh-Durham CSA?

Honestly I think it is because those cities have lots of congregations of smart people. I didn't even plan it out this way... but I Google'd "most educated cities" after typing the above and what I found yields some interesting, relevant results....

America's smartest cities - Aug. 31, 2006

[bluedogok]

I think the New Mexico Whole Foods were originally Wild Oats locations like the Tulsa location. So WF inherited those in the takeover.

[soonerguru]

Perhaps better questions to ask would be...

Why is Albuquerque significantly smaller in population than OKC, yet already has a couple of Whole Foods, several cool "districts" or lifestyle destinations or whatever you want to call them, etc.? Same question about Tulsa? New Orleans (pre-disaster)?

Why is the Austin MSA population say maybe a third bigger than OKC yet the city seems to have 10x as much commerce? Same question about Louisville... not much bigger yet more of everything... why? Same question for Raleigh-Durham CSA?

Honestly I think it is because those cities have lots of congregations of smart people. I didn't even plan it out this way... but I Google'd "most educated cities" after typing the above and what I found yields some interesting, relevant results....

America's smartest cities - Aug. 31, 2006

Bingo. You've answered your own questions. For urban-focused, modestly educated, moderately progressive people, living in OKC is a challenge. My theory is that OKC is actually the most progressive place in the state, but the state itself is so miserably backward that it is pulling OKC down. I should add that I earnestly hope this is true, though I'm often confronted with things in OKC that challenge this thinking.

[mugofbeer]

Bingo. You've answered your own questions. For urban-focused, modestly educated, moderately progressive people, living in OKC is a challenge. My theory is that OKC is actually the most progressive place in the state, but the state itself is so miserably backward that it is pulling OKC down. I should add that I earnestly hope this is true, though I'm often confronted with things in OKC that challenge this thinking.

Don't you think it has to do with what people's perceptions are of "progressive?" Most people who call themselves "progressives" are like pseudo-snobs back east that think of themselves as "intellectuals" when in reality, aren't any more well read or well educated than anyone else. One person's "progressive" is another person's socialist. One person's "backward thinking" is another person's off-the-deep-end thinking.

[soonerguru]

Don't you think it has to do with what people's perceptions are of "progressive?" Most people who call themselves "progressives" are like pseudo-snobs back east that think of themselves as "intellectuals" when in reality, aren't any more well read or well educated than anyone else. One person's "progressive" is another person's socialist. One person's "backward thinking" is another person's off-the-deep-end thinking.

To answer. No. I know you're a Republican apologist, but it's really not about party politics. Look around a bit and you might get an idea.

It's not snobbery. There's nothing inherently wholesome and all-American about ignorance and illiteracy. Unfortunately, our state has both of those in spades. This has nothing to do with "snobs back east."

To the contrary, a lot of people in this part of the world (and I'm a native) are very suspicious of educated people. This isn't very attractive to other educated people. They tend to move where other really educated people are, just to break it down a bit.

[ljbab728]

Bingo. You've answered your own questions. For urban-focused, modestly educated, moderately progressive people, living in OKC is a challenge. My theory is that OKC is actually the most progressive place in the state, but the state itself is so miserably backward that it is pulling OKC down. I should add that I earnestly hope this is true, though I'm often confronted with things in OKC that challenge this thinking.

When you say the state is backward that suggests a negative attitude to everyone and everything here. I agree that our state legislature seems to spend 90% of their time working on conservative social agendas instead of things that will actually benefit our state but that shouldn't reflect on the whole state. I agree it is a drag on OKC though. When we are trying to impress national retailers, Sally Kern is putting us in a big whole.

[Spartan]

Spartan, you're not reading what I'm saying. I'm not talking about comparing the current development in the cities listed. I'm talking about city zoning, ordinances, requirements that make a difference. You keep talking like the city government is responsible for this because of a lack of something

The city government IS responsible for the difference. I outlined the problems with OKC's city planning, and I think I made the case pretty solidly that OKC's development is very sub-par compared to Tulsa/Dallas/KC/etc. So the question is, do you want it to be Soonerguru's theory that it's a cultural and educational deficiency with OKC, or do you want it to be my theory that it's a city planning deficiency? I can tell you that a problem with planning policy is a lot easier to fix.

Or maybe I didn't make the connection between those other cities' higher quality development and their planning departments? Well I can tell you that Tulsa has been getting rid of development requirements, and they recently did away with the parking requirement and also with city ordinances against neon signage (ironic for such an art deco city). Houston also has by-far more sophisticated retail development (much higher standard than Dallas, imo) and Houston is famous for ZERO zoning ordinances. That's the way to be in my opinion. So yeah, because Houston has no zoning it probably contributed to sprawl--but it also gave Houston developers wiggle room within the Inner Loop to do whatever they want and today Houston has a serious leg-up with mixed-use development in my opinion.

I'm not an expert on Dallas and KC planning regulations but I can imagine that the higher land values are a big factor and that with KC, governments are more likely to get involved in development. Sort of the opposite of OKC where commissions feel compelled to stay out of development even if development is their mission (ie DDR v. SandRidge), despite the crappy development guidelines OKC has in place.

[mugofbeer]

To answer. No. I know you're a Republican apologist, but it's really not about party politics. Look around a bit and you might get an idea.

It's not snobbery. There's nothing wholesome and all-American about ignorance and illiteracy. Unfortunately, our state has both of those in spades. This has nothing to do with "snobs back east."

I've looked around here for 50 years and lived in several other locations around the country - have you? Sure, OK is a more conservative state than others but it's also NOT as conservative as others that have the kinds of retail this thread is all about. Why we don't have some chain brans has got nothing to do with politics or morals or your perception of backward-thinking and everything to do with economic perception and demographics. If the chain management felt like they could make a buck in David Koresh' compound, they would put a store there. Right now, they don't feel like they can make a buck.

As far as your political jab, I am as much of a Republican apoligist as you are a Democratic party-line operative but again, this thread has nothing to do with politics. You just seemed to feel the need to throw in your political viewpoints as somehow being right-minded and "forward thinking" when then are nothing more than Democratic party line. Obviously terms put in the party talking points to present the positions as having some sort of morally and intellectually superior status to make supporters feel better about themselves.

[ljbab728]

To the contrary, a lot of people in this part of the world (and I'm a native) are very suspicious of educated people. This isn't very attractive to other educated people. They tend to move where other really educated people are, just to break it down a bit.

Sooner, I'm also a native college educated citizen who has lived here all of my life. Maybe you meet different people than I do, but I don't ever remember anyone who was suspicious of educated people. Maybe it just depends on how you try to relate to people with less education.

[Spartan]

Let's please stop comparing OKC (1.3 million) do DFW (6.7 million). That's a giant difference.

Now, as for Tulsa. Utica Square has a good thing going. We need something similar and won't me surprised to see it come about in the near future. We have the market.

As for Whole Foods? Let's not go there. You cannot count that against OKC. Ask Whole Foods. They're the ones dragging their feet.

Spring Creek in Edmond is a very great start.

IMAX has a location in Quail Springs Mall.

And KC is almost twice the size of OKC's market. So again, comparisons are pointless. KC and Dallas are both well-established markets. OKC is just getting started.

I am of the impression that we've taken the good ol' "We're not gonna maker it... poor us" approach.

I do agree, however, that local developers need to be nailed to the wall. They are partially responsible for a city's quaility of life, bottom line or not. We are just being vocal in the wrong place... an internet message board that they a) don't give a crap about and b) don't even know about.

Pulse.. I've told you this a lot of times, you need to be more critical sometimes. But nonetheless congrats for making a post without claiming that Tuscana is underway, which it isn't..

As for the DFW/OKC comparisons, I believe they are incredibly valid. Is planning an entirely different ball game in Dallas? Different concepts and fundamentals? The answer is no, and you know that.

If Whole Foods is dragging their feet on coming to OKC it's because they saw for themselves the dearth of quality development in OKC, and can you blame them? From their perspective, OKC probably looks like some crappy generic city like Wichita, especially coming from Austin. They can settle for Nashville, Birmingham, Tulsa, etc.. but not OKC. As for IMAX you know very well that the Quail Springs movie theater is an AMC, not an IMAX. Just because you have one screen that is an IMAX doesn't make it an IMAX Theater. The one in Tulsa is an IMAX, not an AMC. Big difference.

Spring Creek in Edmond is a nice development, but it's small. If someone could do a bigger version of that project that was actually in OKC, not Edmond, it would be a great start for OKC retail.

__________________

Spartan, I don't know why you LOL at Nichols Hills Plaza. It has the ideal location and the perimeter is a good size. If some infill were added, and it were spruced up and modernized, and marketed agressively, there's no reason it couldn't turn into a Utica Square. Obviously it's not there right now. I likewise think Western from 36th practically all the way to Wilshire has similiarly good bones. It just takes people doing it rather than talking about it like we all tend to do. (I'm as guilty as anybody).

Nichols Hills Plaza is an ugly development, honestly. The SW portion is actually aesthetically pleasing, but it's very small. The drab brown brick with no detail is really ugly and disappointing for what really is a GREAT location that Nichols Hills Plaza just wastes.

As for Western Avenue, it WILL develop into something like Brookside or maybe even nicer if the city EVER got serious about it. They need to do a cohesive streetscape and create a well-defined extensive public space that is pleasant and stimulates development. That would go a long ways, and I've been told for a long time that the city is planning a Western Ave streetscape but I have yet to see it. Let me know if it ever happens..

[ljbab728]

The city government IS responsible for the difference. I outlined the problems with OKC's city planning, and I think I made the case pretty solidly that OKC's development is very sub-par compared to Tulsa/Dallas/KC/etc. So the question is, do you want it to be Soonerguru's theory that it's a cultural and educational deficiency with OKC, or do you want it to be my theory that it's a city planning deficiency? I can tell you that a problem with planning policy is a lot easier to fix.

Or maybe I didn't make the connection between those other cities' higher quality development and their planning departments? Well I can tell you that Tulsa has been getting rid of development requirements, and they recently did away with the parking requirement and also with city ordinances against neon signage (ironic for such an art deco city). Houston also has by-far more sophisticated retail development (much higher standard than Dallas, imo) and Houston is famous for ZERO zoning ordinances. That's the way to be in my opinion. So yeah, because Houston has no zoning it probably contributed to sprawl--but it also gave Houston developers wiggle room within the Inner Loop to do whatever they want and today Houston has a serious leg-up with mixed-use development in my opinion.

I'm not an expert on Dallas and KC planning regulations but I can imagine that the higher land values are a big factor and that with KC, governments are more likely to get involved in development. Sort of the opposite of OKC where commissions feel compelled to stay out of development even if development is their mission (ie DDR v. SandRidge), despite the crappy development guidelines OKC has in place.

Spartan, are you saying that Tulsa now requires no parking at all for businesses?
I will never agree that no zoning, like Houston has, promotes anything like a great urban area. The booming economy that Houston has enjoyed for years has much more to do with that. If Dallas and Kansas City have higher land values than OKC how can that be the fault of city planners?
I'm not trying to make excuses for everything that the city does because I know they make mistakes, I just don't think they can be blamed for everything like you're trying to do.

[soonerguru]

I've looked around here for 50 years and lived in several other locations around the country - have you? Sure, OK is a more conservative state than others but it's also NOT as conservative as others that have the kinds of retail this thread is all about. Why we don't have some chain brans has got nothing to do with politics or morals or your perception of backward-thinking and everything to do with economic perception and demographics. If the chain management felt like they could make a buck in David Koresh' compound, they would put a store there. Right now, they don't feel like they can make a buck.

As far as your political jab, I am as much of a Republican apoligist as you are a Democratic party-line operative but again, this thread has nothing to do with politics. You just seemed to feel the need to throw in your political viewpoints as somehow being right-minded and "forward thinking" when then are nothing more than Democratic party line. Obviously terms put in the party talking points to present the positions as having some sort of morally and intellectually superior status to make supporters feel better about themselves.

So are you arguing that smart people aren't drawn to communities where smart people cluster? If you are, you're wrong.

I'm a big-time OKC booster, but I'm also not in denial. Our state's overall conservatism is a drag on attracting smart people. I'm sure you'll argue this point, but only because you're a Republican.

What's relevant here is that Oklahoma needs to be an attractive place for smart people and entrepreneurs to live, not just bible-thumping conservatives.

And your point about "morally superior" is abjectly absurd, particularly considering the self-righteous wingers who run this state.

[gen70]

Wow..Just..Wow..!!

[shane453]

What's relevant here is that Oklahoma needs to be an attractive place for smart people and entrepreneurs to live, not just bible-thumping conservatives.

You realize that it's an extremely offensive idea that Christians and conservatives are the opposite of smart and entrepreneurial? I would argue (from within the young Christian community) that a large part of the young Christians in this city are growing up to be a sophisticated, educated, creative, productive group that is also very active in international humanitarian efforts- they are people who look a lot like the secular liberals who are apparently adored by smart people and entrepreneurs everywhere. I know of many people my age who qualify as young urban creative professionals (that's the demographic that draws more people in!) who are also dedicated Christians.

Christianity doesn't have to be linked to rednecks, Sally Kern, and conservatism.

[Kerry]

So are you arguing that smart people aren't drawn to communities where smart people cluster? If you are, you're wrong.

I'm a big-time OKC booster, but I'm also not in denial. Our state's overall conservatism is a drag on attracting smart people. I'm sure you'll argue this point, but only because you're a Republican.

What's relevant here is that Oklahoma needs to be an attractive place for smart people and entrepreneurs to live, not just bible-thumping conservatives.

And your point about "morally superior" is abjectly absurd, particularly considering the self-righteous wingers who run this state.

Jacksonville, FL is just as conservative and just as uneducated as OKC and we have a WholeFoods and several Native Sun's.

Native Sun Natural Foods Market - A little different. A lot better.

Why don't some of you get together, pool your money, and see if you can open a Native Sun in OKC. All this pissing and moaning that some large company won't do something for you is getting a little old.

[okcpulse]

Pulse.. I've told you this a lot of times, you need to be more critical sometimes.

I was very critical of Belle Isle Station when they put that crap in, but that was 10 years ago. Time to move on. I emailed Randy Hogan and told him I thought he could have done much better with Lower Bricktown. Should OKC adopt better standards for developments? You bet.

I just simply prefer focusing on OKC tomorrow, not focus on past mistakes.

But nonetheless congrats for making a post without claiming that Tuscana is underway, which it isn't..

Then you can call the owners and ask them, because that is what I did after I had a suspicion that the development died. They told me otherwise.

As for the DFW/OKC comparisons, I believe they are incredibly valid. Is planning an entirely different ball game in Dallas? Different concepts and fundamentals? The answer is no, and you know that.

When we are comparing amenities offered in a metro area six times the size of OKC, I don't know how you call that a valid comparison. Maybe I am misunderstanding your approach, but we can't offer 10 major malls and as many lifestyle centers to a population of 1.3 million.

If you're speaking in terms of quality, then okay, I see where you are coming from.

If Whole Foods is dragging their feet on coming to OKC it's because they saw for themselves the dearth of quality development in OKC, and can you blame them?

Whole Foods doesn't base their locations on the dearth of quality development. Is Whole Foods in Tulsa around any quality development? No. Granted, that was a Wild Oats location beforehand.

As for IMAX you know very well that the Quail Springs movie theater is an AMC, not an IMAX. Just because you have one screen that is an IMAX doesn't make it an IMAX Theater. The one in Tulsa is an IMAX, not an AMC. Big difference.

Seriously? An IMAX theater is an IMAX. If there is an IMAX projector and screen, it's an IMAX. The one in Tulsa is a part of Cinemark. But anyway, you and I both agree OKC needs better development, but I feel OKC deserves better development.

Spring Creek in Edmond is a nice development, but it's small. If someone could do a bigger version of that project that was actually in OKC, not Edmond, it would be a great start for OKC retail.

The same developers that built Spring Creek are also behind the Tuscana project. They are RCL Development.

I very much agree with you on this one. It would be great for OKC. If RCL can't pull it off, then it's time for the OKC C of C to actively seek a developer that can.

[mugofbeer]

So are you arguing that smart people aren't drawn to communities where smart people cluster? If you are, you're wrong.

What in the world is your definition of 'smart people"? Smart doesn't necessarily mean educated. EDUCATED people tend to cluster in communities that are centers of learning, yes. EDUCATED people tend to cluster in areas where there is special industry (such as Los Alamos, Silicon Valley, Austin, or Huntsville).

I'm a big-time OKC booster, but I'm also not in denial. Our state's overall conservatism is a drag on attracting smart people. I'm sure you'll argue this point, but only because you're a Republican.

Oklahoma has no fewer "smart" people, proportionately, than anywhere else in the country. It's statistically impossible unless there are other factors (such as chemical or environmental) that might cause it. Oklahoma has less EDUCATED people which, again, are two different things. Is our state's economy behind that of most of the country? Yes, but it is EDUCATION, not intelligence. Go look up the definitions in the dictionary, unless, as a Democrat you think you know it all already.

And your point about "morally superior" is abjectly absurd, particularly considering the self-righteous wingers who run this state.

Which just proved my point that you, as a leftist, feel yourself to be morally and mentally superior to people on the right. Read what you just said. Simply because people on the right have other opinions than yourself, you castigate them as self-righteous. The right believes they are right (meaning "correct") while the left believes THEY are. Thats all it is. But when you can't argue a point factually without resorting to demeaning names, insults and contradictions of thought it shows you have no room for anyone other than those who believe exactly as you do. That's called close-mindedness and those on both extremes are guilty of it.

[onthestrip]

The same developers that built Spring Creek are also behind the Tuscana project. They are RCL Development.

I very much agree with you on this one. It would be great for OKC. If RCL can't pull it off, then it's time for the OKC C of C to actively seek a developer that can.

I dont think thats right. Spring Creek Village, on the NW corner, was developed by Ballinger and Spring Creek Plaza which is on the NE corner was done by Ward/Zerby.

[okclee]

The Tuscana project does nothing for me personally due to location. It might as well be in Tulsa or DFW., but it would be a nice get for Okc.

[okcpulse]

I dont think thats right. Spring Creek Village, on the NW corner, was developed by Ballinger and Spring Creek Plaza which is on the NE corner was done by Ward/Zerby.

You are correct. It was Massey-Mann that did the designing for Spring Creek and Tuscana.

I stand corrected.