OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points

[bluedogok]

There are cities and towns that have pretty strict design standards that regulate what can and cannot be built in their city limits, Overland Park was one of the first with these type of design standards.

Developers in OKC are used to pretty much doing whatever they want because in many minds any retail is good retail, that has almost always been the case and they will fight any change to the ability to do what they want. Most will build they think they can get by with.

[mugofbeer]

Spartan, I don't disagree with your concept about how things should be developed but how do you ban the things you propose and how does that help? Do Tulsa or Dallas or Kansas City ban strip malls? I don't think so. I' ve seen plenty of them there. What do those cities do to promote these kinds of developments that OKC doesn't do? Exactly what kind of building or zoning requirements do they have that we don't have here?

I don't know about Tulsa or KC, but Dallas does impose more restrictive construction requirements on their retail spaces. Nicer architectural designs and higher end exteriors. From what I see, OKC doesn't do anything like this.

[ljbab728]

I don't know about Tulsa or KC, but Dallas does impose more restrictive construction requirements on their retail spaces. Nicer architectural designs and higher end exteriors. From what I see, OKC doesn't do anything like this.

Maybe so, but I've seen a lot of strip mall areas in Dallas that look pretty crappy.

[ljbab728]

There are cities and towns that have pretty strict design standards that regulate what can and cannot be built in their city limits, Overland Park was one of the first with these type of design standards.

This is a good idea but Spartan's suggestion was banning strip malls, not dictating the design standards. There is a difference.

[Spartan]

Spartan, I don't disagree with your concept about how things should be developed but how do you ban the things you propose and how does that help? Do Tulsa or Dallas or Kansas City ban strip malls? I don't think so. I' ve seen plenty of them there. What do those cities do to promote these kinds of developments that OKC doesn't do? Exactly what kind of building or zoning requirements do they have that we don't have here?

Different cities, different problems. Given OKC's unique problems, I think the Planning Dept needs to be a lot more involved than it currently is.. not just crouched in the fetal position whimpering in the corner of City Hall.

[bluedogok]

Maybe so, but I've seen a lot of strip mall areas in Dallas that look pretty crappy.

The time at which they were built makes a huge difference. The strip malls built by C.A. Henderson in the 70's in OKC were the lowest of the low when it came to standards, pretty much the same thing in Dallas with anything built in the 70's. Most of what has been built in recent years is better, but most are not anything great.

This is a good idea but Spartan's suggestion was banning strip malls, not dictating the design standards. There is a difference.

What he advocates will not happen, but I do think there needs to be some modifications to the development codes and neighborhood groups to allow better development and some mixed use development. In some areas where we do work (Central/South Texas) the traditional strip mall is effectively banned by the review boards, not through ordinance. Getting approval through some jurisdictions is pretty much impossible without some sort of mixed use. I do wish the developers would go to more structured parking in OKC like we do down here but of course that would raise development costs and most developers will resist anything they feel costs them more money.

I tend to think differently when it comes to parking though outside the urban areas, I think that development codes need to change in regards to restaurants and parking. The mercantile parking requirements are quite ridiculous when it comes to restaurants and the lack of parking and/or the impact on adjacent retail, they pretty much need their own classification.

[Spartan]

Spartan, I don't disagree with your concept about how things should be developed but how do you ban the things you propose and how does that help? Do Tulsa or Dallas or Kansas City ban strip malls? I don't think so. I' ve seen plenty of them there. What do those cities do to promote these kinds of developments that OKC doesn't do? Exactly what kind of building or zoning requirements do they have that we don't have here?

Good question, hopefully I have some good answers, although you be the judge of that. I have a lot of things that this question makes me think of at once and I'll try to run through them..

1. A major point they teach in law school is "unwritten contract law" between people who verbally agree on something. Public policy and public administration has the same thing, and it's equally relevant as city planning and architectural guidelines in ascertaining how to get private developer buy-in to the city's goal of better, more sustainable development. Take Bricktown for example, when we allowed Bass Pro, Residence Inn, and all the other urban design atrocities we sent a message loud and clear that urban design guidelines are nice but not adhered to, not relevant, and not important. Then when BUD forced McDonald's to get their act together and raised the bar for the Hampton Inn and other projects, it also sent a message that we will occasionally enforce urban design guidelines.

2. When it comes to suburban development, there's this misconception that we are in competition with the ankle-biting suburbs for development. We're really not, because OKC still controls the most desirable development areas--Deer Creek, Memorial Road, I-40 west, Northwest Expressway, etc. It's true OKC has lost a proportion of sales tax revenues but the primary cause of that is the southside's deterioration and not so much the strength of other Cleveland County suburbs in my opinion. What's more is that the smaller communities typically have a history of following suit behind OKC, and a great example of this is tax structure. The only suburb whose tax rate is not nearly the same as OKC's is Warr Acres, which has virtually no important retail to speak of besides Walgreen's and Incredible Pizza. In order for change to come to the OKC metro it has to come from OKC City Hall and other communities WILL more than likely follow suit.

_________________
So to recap so far, it's not so much a specific code issue or that there is something we should ban. A lot of it just has to do with changing the precedent and requiring better in general. However you change the precedent, once we do so, OKC will start to see a shift in development philosophy.
_________________

3. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are a lot of development restrictions enforced by the OKC Planning Dept that need to be changed. These restrictions facilitated the sprawl we've become familiar with, because that was mistakenly seen as the desirable development trend for the latter portion of the 20th Century (a century which has become notable for its destruction of great cities as well as the misconception of what a great city is, more so than any other century so far). These requirements include but aren't limited to: building codes that dictate finish requirements on new development thus making true downtown lofts impossible, a ban on mixed-use development in the suburbs, required site development setbacks, requirements on the number of parking spaces you must have, and so on. So this is my question to sort of answer a question: If we can require parking spaces, why can't we reverse that and put a cap on surface parking in the city? If we can ban mixed-uses and require setbacks in other areas of the city, why can't we reverse that as well? If we can enforce suburbanism, why can't we have a shift of paradigm and just enforce urbanism instead?

4. As for banning strip malls outright, there are communities that do just this believe it or not although nobody will be surprised to learn that Tulsa, Dallas, or KC aren't among them--they mostly exist on the West Coast and primarily in California. A more common solution to making crappy development more difficult is to put a ban on EIFS/EFIS and other substandard building materials. I would also place a ban on steel structures anywhere in the city unless it's zoned industrial or rural/agriculture. Banning strip malls is feasible but an extreme solution where more moderate solutions exist such as I just mentioned.

[mugofbeer]

I will make one observation about Dallas since I lived there for 13 years. Many of the strip centers that were built there have either been torn down and redeveloped in a "bigger and better use" or rebuilt or have undergone major renovations. I haven't seen a lot of that going on here - some, but not a major trend.

[MikeOKC]

I will make one observation about Dallas since I lived there for 13 years. Many of the strip centers that were built there have either been torn down and redeveloped in a "bigger and better use" or rebuilt or have undergone major renovations. I haven't seen a lot of that going on here - some, but not a major trend.

Good point. I'm in Plano right now and the standards for Collin County are pretty high. Brick and stone rules this county. Any new retail is nice retail.

[mugofbeer]

Good point. I'm in Plano right now and the standards for Collin County are pretty high. Brick and stone rules this county. Any new retail is nice retail.

You can hardly find a cheesy strip center in N. Dallas over to Lakewood. NW Dallas has even seen most of the bad ones replaced. Carollton, Farmers Branch and Richardson still have some but they pretty regularly replace facades and update them.

[ljbab728]

Good question, hopefully I have some good answers, although you be the judge of that. I have a lot of things that this question makes me think of at once and I'll try to run through them..

1. A major point they teach in law school is "unwritten contract law" between people who verbally agree on something. Public policy and public administration has the same thing, and it's equally relevant as city planning and architectural guidelines in ascertaining how to get private developer buy-in to the city's goal of better, more sustainable development. Take Bricktown for example, when we allowed Bass Pro, Residence Inn, and all the other urban design atrocities we sent a message loud and clear that urban design guidelines are nice but not adhered to, not relevant, and not important. Then when BUD forced McDonald's to get their act together and raised the bar for the Hampton Inn and other projects, it also sent a message that we will occasionally enforce urban design guidelines.

2. When it comes to suburban development, there's this misconception that we are in competition with the ankle-biting suburbs for development. We're really not, because OKC still controls the most desirable development areas--Deer Creek, Memorial Road, I-40 west, Northwest Expressway, etc. It's true OKC has lost a proportion of sales tax revenues but the primary cause of that is the southside's deterioration and not so much the strength of other Cleveland County suburbs in my opinion. What's more is that the smaller communities typically have a history of following suit behind OKC, and a great example of this is tax structure. The only suburb whose tax rate is not nearly the same as OKC's is Warr Acres, which has virtually no important retail to speak of besides Walgreen's and Incredible Pizza. In order for change to come to the OKC metro it has to come from OKC City Hall and other communities WILL more than likely follow suit.

_________________
So to recap so far, it's not so much a specific code issue or that there is something we should ban. A lot of it just has to do with changing the precedent and requiring better in general. However you change the precedent, once we do so, OKC will start to see a shift in development philosophy.
_________________

3. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are a lot of development restrictions enforced by the OKC Planning Dept that need to be changed. These restrictions facilitated the sprawl we've become familiar with, because that was mistakenly seen as the desirable development trend for the latter portion of the 20th Century (a century which has become notable for its destruction of great cities as well as the misconception of what a great city is, more so than any other century so far). These requirements include but aren't limited to: building codes that dictate finish requirements on new development thus making true downtown lofts impossible, a ban on mixed-use development in the suburbs, required site development setbacks, requirements on the number of parking spaces you must have, and so on. So this is my question to sort of answer a question: If we can require parking spaces, why can't we reverse that and put a cap on surface parking in the city? If we can ban mixed-uses and require setbacks in other areas of the city, why can't we reverse that as well? If we can enforce suburbanism, why can't we have a shift of paradigm and just enforce urbanism instead?

4. As for banning strip malls outright, there are communities that do just this believe it or not although nobody will be surprised to learn that Tulsa, Dallas, or KC aren't among them--they mostly exist on the West Coast and primarily in California. A more common solution to making crappy development more difficult is to put a ban on EIFS/EFIS and other substandard building materials. I would also place a ban on steel structures anywhere in the city unless it's zoned industrial or rural/agriculture. Banning strip malls is feasible but an extreme solution where more moderate solutions exist such as I just mentioned.

Spartan, you make a lot of good points about things we could. Most of what I was talking about earlier was that you were comparing us to Tulsa, Kansas City, or Dallas and suggesting that they had some kind of ordinances that were causing them to have superior developments. I still don't see any evidence that that is true.

[chuckdiesel]

The main thing that irks me about this article is calling OKC the Midwest.... ugggh.

No kidding. Oklahoma has never been midwest. It has never been the south either. We Okies occupy a largely unrepresented part of the country known as the south central US or southern plains(Texas with more Indians and less Mexicans, culturally), a part of the plains occupied by southern influences. Midwest does not mean "almost west". Some people need a geography lesson and some world experience. Combine equal parts Cowboy(a mexican influence), southern transplants, and throw in a dash of native american culture(a big distinction from Texas), and you get Okie culture. The only reason Ok was not part of the true south is because it was unsettled. The only reason that OK is a state today is because my ancestors sided with the confederacy. Take a history lesson people. OK is the Kentucky of the West. The first state geographically that blends the South and the West. Screw Ft. Worth, OKC is the embodiment of this. Equal parts of both the South and the West yet not either. 0% midwest. Travel people!!

[chuckdiesel]

As far as development goes, all of it will come (nordstrams, whole foods, the whole lot) it's all based on business models not prejudice. If OKC continues to market itself as a good place to live (which it is) then all else will come as new residents come. Grow the population as the last untapped city in the "sun-belt" and everything else will come. This is capitalism. Manipulate the market don't dictate it. People want to make money. And they will regardless of their prejudices. Money talks. The bottom line.

[progressiveboy]

No kidding. Oklahoma has never been midwest. It has never been the south either. We Okies occupy a largely unrepresented part of the country known as the south central US or southern plains(Texas with more Indians and less Mexicans, culturally), a part of the plains occupied by southern influences. Midwest does not mean "almost west". Some people need a geography lesson and some world experience. Combine equal parts Cowboy(a mexican influence), southern transplants, and throw in a dash of native american culture(a big distinction from Texas), and you get Okie culture. The only reason Ok was not part of the true south is because it was unsettled. The only reason that OK is a state today is because my ancestors sided with the confederacy. Take a history lesson people. OK is the Kentucky of the West. The first state geographically that blends the South and the West. Screw Ft. Worth, OKC is the embodiment of this. Equal parts of both the South and the West yet not either.

I still consider Oklahoma to be more of a Southern State. It is not the "deep" South but what I consider the Upper South. Even dictionaries will define the state as a "South Central geographically. Agree, Oklahoma is "not" the midwest.

[chuckdiesel]

The main thing that irks me about this article is calling OKC the Midwest.... ugggh.

Midwest equals:

brown gravy (wtf gravy comes in one color, white)
nasal overemphasis on vowels
Only one choice of tea: Unsweet and instant
Lutheren/Methodist/Catholic majority over Southern Baptist
hockey (or LaCrosse, come the **** on)
big ten (eleven?)
basements (we have independent storm cellars)
black clay (we have mostly red to tan sandy soil)
manufacturing
corned beef (uhm pork chops and okra please)
paisley white folks eating bland food, (yes, i want lett, tom, and jalepenos on my burger not just a soy patty and white buns you fuktard)
wolverines
the north woods
fishing for musky (never heard of them)
farming (we are mostly an oil and natural gas/cattle state, although we do produce a large farm export, but how many "midwest" states produce our amount of COTTON) Spend some time in Southwest OK.
woody cars
closer ties to canada than mexico
Ice fishing
A large Scandanavian and Polish population

Or this chick:



when our sheriff's dress like this:




I have never experienced any of these things in OK.





Modern South:



United States South Central States:

[MikeOKC]

Midwest equals:

brown gravy (wtf gravy comes in one color, white)
nasal overemphasis on vowels
Only one choice of tea: Unsweet and instant
Lutheren/Methodist/Catholic majority over Southern Baptist
hockey (or LaCrosse, come the **** on)
big ten (eleven?)
basements (we have independent storm cellars)
black clay (we have mostly red to tan sandy soil)
manufacturing
corned beef (uhm pork chops and okra please)
paisley white folks eating bland food, (yes, i want lett, tom, and jalepenos on my burger not just a soy patty and white buns you fuktard)

Sounds like you have a problem with the Great Midwest. Not to mention you need to grow-up and act like an adult on this forum.

[dismayed]

Different cities, different problems. Given OKC's unique problems, I think the Planning Dept needs to be a lot more involved than it currently is.. not just crouched in the fetal position whimpering in the corner of City Hall.

Agree, among other things their population is so much larger they just have bigger niche market segments to draw from.

But even though Dallas might not be a really strict code city, their codes are a lot stricter than OKC's. For example the last time I checked you had to put about 3x as much landscaping into any new building project in Dallas compared to here.

[PHXguyinOKC]

The main thing that irks me about this article is calling OKC the Midwest.... ugggh.

i don't understand how it's not part of the Midwest. Midwest City anyone.
OK definitely isn't a part of the Southwest.

/tangent

[BG918]

You could debate forever on what region Oklahoma is in. In reality we are a sub-region unto itself sharing a lot of similarities with Texas but with more Midwestern and definitely Native American influence. We politically and culturally align with the South and that can't be denied. Tulsa with its heavy industry and river, as well as a much larger percentage of Methodists and Presbyterians than the rest of Oklahoma, is more similar to Midwestern cities in that regard but as a whole is still Southern. OKC and Ft. Worth are literally where the South and West meet.

[oneforone]

I think is a back burner issue (matter a fact an off the stove and in the freezer issue).

It was just a short time ago when the focus of conversations on this board and everywhere else in the world was how people were just too poor to afford healthcare.

Now we want to whine about the lack of upscale retail. I think we could all do without upscale retail for a little while. The last thing we need is more crap to put on over extended credit lines that will go in a closet, on a shelf or some other corner of the house to collect dust until we give it to Goodwill.

I think the new focus needs to be pay off your debts, build a emergency savings fund and only buy the things with cash.

We can worry about upscale retail when the majority of the population understands the value of a dollar and practices the concepts of a debt free household.

[Spartan]

Spartan, you make a lot of good points about things we could. Most of what I was talking about earlier was that you were comparing us to Tulsa, Kansas City, or Dallas and suggesting that they had some kind of ordinances that were causing them to have superior developments. I still don't see any evidence that that is true.

Okay, fair enough...

Where are OKC's equivalents to the following developments:

1 Utica Square
2 Highland Park Village
3 Country Club Plaza
4 Southlake Town Square
5 Zona Rosa
6 NorthPark Mall (Dallas..not OKC lol)
7 Dallas Galleria
8 Tulsa/Dallas/KC Whole Foods locations
9 RiverWalk Crossing
10 Tulsa/Dallas/KC IMAX Theater locations
11 Stonewood Hills (the suburbs..where Bass Pro belongs)
12 Legends/Village West
13 Crown Center
14 18th/Vine new urbanist center (I forget the name)
15 Oak Park Mall
16 Town Center Plaza
17 One Nineteen in Leawood
18 Mockingbird Station
19 Stonebriar Centre
20 Grapevine Mills
21 Neiman Marcus (their flagship original store is still in DTD)
22 Crescent Court

Here's what OKC has. Penn Square Mall, eh..not really cutting it. Nichols Hills Plaza gets an LOL. And 50 Penn Place is long gone. That's IT. Now, Classen Curve really has the chance to be something nice for OKC but only because of its tenant base. Balliet's and some of these awesome restaurant concepts have been desperate for quality space in OKC for a long time and have really settled with Classen Curve IMO. Classen Curve still amounts to maybe Crescent Court (Dallas) or One Nineteen (KCK burbs) and nowhere near the Plaza or Utica Square.

Evidence that Tulsa/Dallas/KC have better retail space available?

Not to mention that OKC still has NO equivalent of upscale urban neighborhood shopping that's available en masse in Brookside (Tulsa, or KC) or Greenville Ave in Dallas. However major major kudos for The Plaza District.. if you haven't checked out this area, you guys have to it's NW 16th between Classen and Penn. Probably 4/5 new local clothing shops, tons of live music, some new urban living options, 2 new coffee shops, art galleries and much more. I was sorta surprised and thought I was back in Calgary when I checked it out recently. This is one bright spot that OKC has on the horizon and a lot of it just has to do with Jeff Struble just making it happen and raising the bar on his own. Why can't more developers other than in OKC other than AMC just make stuff happen on their own and raise the bar?

[ljbab728]

Okay, fair enough...

Where are OKC's equivalents to the following developments:

1 Utica Square
2 Highland Park Village
3 Country Club Plaza
4 Southlake Town Square
5 Zona Rosa
6 NorthPark Mall (Dallas..not OKC lol)
7 Dallas Galleria
8 Tulsa/Dallas/KC Whole Foods locations
9 RiverWalk Crossing
10 Tulsa/Dallas/KC IMAX Theater locations
11 Stonewood Hills (the suburbs..where Bass Pro belongs)
12 Legends/Village West
13 Crown Center
14 18th/Vine new urbanist center (I forget the name)
15 Oak Park Mall
16 Town Center Plaza
17 One Nineteen in Leawood
18 Mockingbird Station
19 Stonebriar Centre
20 Grapevine Mills
21 Neiman Marcus (their flagship original store is still in DTD)
22 Crescent Court

Here's what OKC has. Penn Square Mall, eh..not really cutting it. Nichols Hills Plaza gets an LOL. And 50 Penn Place is long gone. That's IT. Now, Classen Curve really has the chance to be something nice for OKC but only because of its tenant base. Balliet's and some of these awesome restaurant concepts have been desperate for quality space in OKC for a long time and have really settled with Classen Curve IMO. Classen Curve still amounts to maybe Crescent Court (Dallas) or One Nineteen (KCK burbs) and nowhere near the Plaza or Utica Square.

Evidence that Tulsa/Dallas/KC have better retail space available?

Not to mention that OKC still has NO equivalent of upscale urban neighborhood shopping that's available en masse in Brookside (Tulsa, or KC) or Greenville Ave in Dallas. However major major kudos for The Plaza District.. if you haven't checked out this area, you guys have to it's NW 16th between Classen and Penn. Probably 4/5 new local clothing shops, tons of live music, some new urban living options, 2 new coffee shops, art galleries and much more. I was sorta surprised and thought I was back in Calgary when I checked it out recently. This is one bright spot that OKC has on the horizon and a lot of it just has to do with Jeff Struble just making it happen and raising the bar on his own. Why can't more developers other than in OKC other than AMC just make stuff happen on their own and raise the bar?

Spartan, you're not reading what I'm saying. I'm not talking about comparing the current development in the cities listed. I'm talking about city zoning, ordinances, requirements that make a difference. You keep talking like the city government is responsible for this because of a lack of something

[chuckdiesel]

Sounds like you have a problem with the Great Midwest. Not to mention you need to grow-up and act like an adult on this forum.

Lighten up, its an internet message board not a courtroom. Its not healthy to go through life wound so tight.

[MikeOKC]

Lighten up, its an internet message board not a courtroom. Its not healthy to go through life wound so tight.

Another Roderick puppet? I'm so sick of people thinking they can throw around random words like "Fuktard" where it is completely unnecessary just because it's an "internet message board." If a courtroom is the only place you don't act and talk like you do, that says a lot about you. I'll say it again, it's clear you need to grow-up. Wanting to see a successful city forum free from juvenile crassness is not being "wound too tight."

[Platemaker]

i don't understand how it's not part of the Midwest. Midwest City anyone.
OK definitely isn't a part of the Southwest.

/tangent

Actually, many do consider us part of the southwest.... all you have to do it go west of OKC... i'm from Altus... cactus and sagebrush.

Midwest City's name has nothing to do with Midwest region.