OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points

[beedell]

NewsOK

[khook]

Well the article in my opinion really should be discussed has to an opportunity waiting to happen. The premise of "leakage" points out that there is a untapped need for those "chains" to make an effort to locate in OKC. Instead of being an also ran the could be the forerunner. Time and time againg the smart retailers that have built and invested have proven results that they will come.

[mugofbeer]

To me, it seems like the chicken and the egg. If so many people are running to Dallas or Tulsa to buy things that aren't available in OKC, doesn't it make sense to make them available in OKC? Their reasoning for leakage shows the potential business in OKC - it's like they are arguing against the very reason they should come here.

[circuitboard]

The reasons for not locating here were completely lame. It's true, yes we go to Dallas to shop. It's not very far, and guess what they have all the stuff we want that's not in OKC. You want us to shop in OKC? THEN LOCATE A STORE HERE.... it is pretty simple. That article irritated me.

[Spartan]

"OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points."

My response: OKC lacks strong points. The bottom line is that the chains are looking at OKC. Instead they're going to Tulsa, Birmingham, Albuquerque, Richmond, and so on..because there is NOWHERE for them to go in OKC.

Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Oklahoma Factory Outlets or whatever it was called, University North Park, and so on.. nice projects. Too bad none of them are ever gonna happen like we had hoped any time soon. UNP will be finished in the year 3045, but only if they pick up the pace from what it is right now.

Meanwhile there are NOOOO decent retail projects in the inner city. Grant Humphreys' awesome proposal for Crown Heights would have done wonders. But that too stalled.

[mugofbeer]

[QUOTE=Spartan;317267
Meanwhile there are NOOOO decent retail projects in the inner city. Grant Humphreys' awesome proposal for Crown Heights would have done wonders. But that too stalled.[/QUOTE]

I used to work in the Cityplace building in Dallas at Central and Lemmon. The city of Dallas went into partnership with a developer, gave some incentives and saw a new retail development built just north of downtown at a time that no one was building in Dallas (early '90s). Later on, I worked in Denver and the City of Denver went into partnership with a developer to put in retail on S. Broadway about a mile out of downtown. Now Denver has several inner city grocery stores but the point is, in both cases, the city had to pony up significant money and guarantees to get the inner city retail projects built.

IMO, the only way this is going to be done is with a public/private partnership. I don't see OKC having the will to do this but if they were to do it, the uproar would be far MORE than what was heard from the Bass Pro project.

Whoops ,EDIT. MORE for less

[ronronnie1]

ugh @ my computer acting screwwy. Ignore this post.

[okcpulse]

Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Oklahoma Factory Outlets or whatever it was called, University North Park, and so on.. nice projects. Too bad none of them are ever gonna happen like we had hoped any time soon. UNP will be finished in the year 3045, but only if they pick up the pace from what it is right now.

Tuscana is on schedule. Quail Springs Ranch is cancelled (which makes sense because it was too close to Tuscana), and construction bids were opened last month for Oklahoma Factory Outlets, which is now called Outlet Shoppes in Oklahoma City. Nine West is one of the stores already on the list for the Outlets.

These are all multiphase projects. Oftentimes, tennants must be signed before construction can begin. As for Tuscana, they are getting upscale multifamily units in place on the outer parcels. The next phase will be the lifestyle center itself.

[MikeOKC]

"OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points."

My response: OKC lacks strong points. The bottom line is that the chains are looking at OKC. Instead they're going to Tulsa, Birmingham, Albuquerque, Richmond, and so on..because there is NOWHERE for them to go in OKC.

Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Oklahoma Factory Outlets or whatever it was called, University North Park, and so on.. nice projects. Too bad none of them are ever gonna happen like we had hoped any time soon. UNP will be finished in the year 3045, but only if they pick up the pace from what it is right now.

Meanwhile there are NOOOO decent retail projects in the inner city. Grant Humphreys' awesome proposal for Crown Heights would have done wonders. But that too stalled.

So right, Nick. The Legends in Kansas City, Firewheel in Garland, we could go on and on. OKC is really lacking here. I've seen these things go up fast across the country. All of this, "It's coming, they're going to build housing and then......" That's not how it's done. And nobody in Oklahoma City has been able to get it done.

[metro]

"OKC hasn't sold chains on its strong points."

My response: OKC lacks strong points. The bottom line is that the chains are looking at OKC. Instead they're going to Tulsa, Birmingham, Albuquerque, Richmond, and so on..because there is NOWHERE for them to go in OKC.

Tuscana, Quail Springs Ranch, Oklahoma Factory Outlets or whatever it was called, University North Park, and so on.. nice projects. Too bad none of them are ever gonna happen like we had hoped any time soon. UNP will be finished in the year 3045, but only if they pick up the pace from what it is right now.

Meanwhile there are NOOOO decent retail projects in the inner city. Grant Humphreys' awesome proposal for Crown Heights would have done wonders. But that too stalled.

I disagree, show evidence of one retailer that says their is no "decent retail project in the inner city of OKC and that's why we're not coming." Every instance I've seen talks about population density. Look at the population density of OKC and compare it to Tulsa, Shawnee, Durant, Chickasha. Because of our large area, it drives our population density wayy down compared to what it actually would be for our urbanized area. I currently work as a project manager on the marketing side for a retail chain that opens up about a store every month and am highly involved in things like this. Population density is the #1 factor. Lack of quality space is important, but retailers will build it if the statistics are strong enough. OKC needs to deannex more than anything.

[okcpulse]

I disagree, show evidence of one retailer that says their is no "decent retail project in the inner city of OKC and that's why we're not coming." Every instance I've seen talks about population density. Look at the population density of OKC and compare it to Tulsa, Shawnee, Durant, Chickasha. Because of our large area, it drives our population density wayy down compared to what it actually would be for our urbanized area. I currently work as a project manager on the marketing side for a retail chain that opens up about a store every month and am highly involved in things like this. Population density is the #1 factor. Lack of quality space is important, but retailers will build it if the statistics are strong enough. OKC needs to deannex more than anything.

Oklahoma City's urbanized area, less than a third of its area, holds 95% of the city's population. Not to mention Edmond, Moore, Del City and MWC are attached to the urbanized area, and Norman is next door to Moore.

So OKC deannexes 250 square miles. The rural area will still be rural and the urbanized area will still be the same size.

[okcpulse]

So right, Nick. The Legends in Kansas City, Firewheel in Garland, we could go on and on. OKC is really lacking here. I've seen these things go up fast across the country. All of this, "It's coming, they're going to build housing and then......" That's not how it's done. And nobody in Oklahoma City has been able to get it done.

Kansas City and DFW are both larger markets, so they are an easier sale. I'm not saying its wrong to try to compete with larger markets. I'm all for it. But using larger markets as a measuring stick to Oklahoma City's progress won't work.

Let's compare our progress to similar sized markets, which there aren't many. New Orleans, Memphis, Salt Lake City. How are those cities?

[onthestrip]

Tuscana is on schedule. Quail Springs Ranch is cancelled (which makes sense because it was too close to Tuscana)

Im not sure that it makes total sense because I think the Quail Springs Ranch might have been a better project. The site plan they had looked great, they apparently had some really good retailers on board early on, and a more visable and easier accessed location.

I disagree, show evidence of one retailer that says their is no "decent retail project in the inner city of OKC and that's why we're not coming." Every instance I've seen talks about population density. Look at the population density of OKC and compare it to Tulsa, Shawnee, Durant, Chickasha. Because of our large area, it drives our population density wayy down compared to what it actually would be for our urbanized area. I currently work as a project manager on the marketing side for a retail chain that opens up about a store every month and am highly involved in things like this. Population density is the #1 factor. Lack of quality space is important, but retailers will build it if the statistics are strong enough. OKC needs to deannex more than anything.

Deannex isnt the answer. And it pretty much does have everything to do with quality space in OKC. There is simply a large void of good upscale space. Tell me what space other than Penn Square would a, new to OKC, upscale national retailer locate in? And dont say Classen Curve, its just not big enough.

[jdcf]

I don't understand the summary of this report either. We are not going to do without simply because it is not readily available in Oklahoma City. My wife makes out of town shopping trips many times a year, most frequently to Dallas and Tulsa.

Oklahoma City seems to lack a large, concentrated area with middle and higher level income, other than in the newer areas of the city. Even within the same square mile section, in many cases there seem to be blocks with larger homes and then adjacent blocks with smaller homes, new homes with older homes, kept homes of all sizes with unkept homes of all sizes. Within zip code areas, I suspect the variation among income and other kinds of factors is also high.

I may be wrong about this, but when we are in Tulsa, this kind of extreme variation is not as apparent to me.

The report was disheartening.

I have never figured out why Penn Square is such a coup, particularly in terms of design. Is it just because that is all we have?

[Platemaker]

The main thing that irks me about this article is calling OKC the Midwest.... ugggh.

[cedbled]

Translation: It's rough all over right now, and when things pickup, OKC may be high on the list anyway, but what fool would tell them that now; since they seem eager enough to bother asking what our dream setup would be, let's encourage them to bring their city\demographics closer in line with what our ideal new location would be......

[dismayed]

Honestly, I see this kind of like the NBA dilemma. For whatever reason, the NBA didn't think OKC could support a team. We literally had to drag one here and show them. Then, we were fortunate enough to have a billionaire living here who was willing to put his own money behind it to make it happen. And of course now that the Thunder is here, there's no denying that they are a huge success and very likely will continue to be for OKC for years to come.

Sometimes when you're the low man on the totem pole you have to make things happen. That doesn't mean waiting around for some corporate ego to grant you the honor of having their awesomeness enter the room. It means finding a chain or franchise and buying it and opening shop here, or making a deal with them that is too crazy to refuse. Honestly the first one or two might be successful but financial losers for the owners because of what it might take to get them here, but I still think if we could just get a critical mass going then others would want to come too, and it's that second wave that business folks could make real money off of. So I think really it comes down to who is willing to commit money to that first wave. It would be awesome if another one of our city's billionaires had some cash burning a hole in his pocket he was ready to commit to this... but if not, then perhaps that is something the taxpayers should consider funding.

[metro]

Honestly, I see this kind of like the NBA dilemma. For whatever reason, the NBA didn't think OKC could support a team. We literally had to drag one here and show them. Then, we were fortunate enough to have a billionaire living here who was willing to put his own money behind it to make it happen. And of course now that the Thunder is here, there's no denying that they are a huge success and very likely will continue to be for OKC for years to come.

Sometimes when you're the low man on the totem pole you have to make things happen. That doesn't mean waiting around for some corporate ego to grant you the honor of having their awesomeness enter the room. It means finding a chain or franchise and buying it and opening shop here, or making a deal with them that is too crazy to refuse. Honestly the first one or two might be successful but financial losers for the owners because of what it might take to get them here, but I still think if we could just get a critical mass going then others would want to come too, and it's that second wave that business folks could make real money off of. So I think really it comes down to who is willing to commit money to that first wave. It would be awesome if another one of our city's billionaires had some cash burning a hole in his pocket he was ready to commit to this... but if not, then perhaps that is something the taxpayers should consider funding.

Agreed. We're going to have to lure a high end retailer here first to prove the market. FYI, Bennett isn't a billionaire, but that point is moot.

[mugofbeer]

Agreed. We're going to have to lure a high end retailer here first to prove the market.

So the question becomes, how do you do it when, according to Steve's article, the "leakage" issue seems to stop them all? I, too, am fully convinced the arguement is bogus and if that many people are shopping elsewhere, that a lot of it is BECAUSE we don't have those retailers here. But because a few people on here aren't in agreement with the "leakage" arguement, how do you change the minds of the people who count?

[onthestrip]

So the question becomes, how do you do it when, according to Steve's article, the "leakage" issue seems to stop them all? I, too, am fully convinced the arguement is bogus and if that many people are shopping elsewhere, that a lot of it is BECAUSE we don't have those retailers here. But because a few people on here aren't in agreement with the "leakage" arguement, how do you change the minds of the people who count?

I dont think its leakage that is stopping them. There are no official studies showing spending leakage that retailers look at. It has more to do with the income/density numbers. However, those leakage findings could be used to help lure a retailer showing them that many OKCers spend a lot of money on things not found in OKC. That was the biggest point made by whatshisname at the ULI luncheon. Make retailers aware that, although we are relatively sparsely populated, we can drive anywhere almost in 20 mins; that our low living costs give us more disposable income; and we buy nice stuff anyways but have to go elsewhere to get it. Couple that with a quality development and basically giving away the space and you will have Anthropologie/Urban Outfitters/Crate&Barrel/other cool stores we dont have.

[mugofbeer]

I dont think its leakage that is stopping them. There are no official studies showing spending leakage that retailers look at. It has more to do with the income/density numbers. However, those leakage findings could be used to help lure a retailer showing them that many OKCers spend a lot of money on things not found in OKC. That was the biggest point made by whatshisname at the ULI luncheon. Make retailers aware that, although we are relatively sparsely populated, we can drive anywhere almost in 20 mins; that our low living costs give us more disposable income; and we buy nice stuff anyways but have to go elsewhere to get it. Couple that with a quality development and basically giving away the space and you will have Anthropologie/Urban Outfitters/Crate&Barrel/other cool stores we dont have.

OKC is certainly a little weird in that our areas of wealth are spread out all over in pockets rather than having a large area like most cities and I can see that as being a detrement. I am sure the Chamber of Commerce knows all of this but I would be interested in something from the COC or the DOK as to the efforts of the COC to get beyond this barrier. Every day people in this city are going to Dallas or Tulsa or KC or wherever to buy merchandise you may not be able to find here is another day we are losing tax money to pay for fire and police and MAPS and mowing parks, etc.

[bluedogok]

I may be wrong about this, but when we are in Tulsa, this kind of extreme variation is not as apparent to me.

OKC doesn't have the concentrated wealth like Tulsa does, some of it in part is due to the poor race relations that Tulsa historically had. North Tulsa has traditionally been less populated, poor and black while the south had higher density, was white and wealthy. The way Tulsa has grown in the last 100 years has pretty much held true to that form. Where as OKC has grown mostly west but there are still some wealthier pockets around the east side of OKC, probably more so than in North Tulsa. Dallas isn't much different in Tulsa in that regard, you have to go to the far south suburbs to get out of the traditional "poor areas" like South Oak Cliff.

I have never figured out why Penn Square is such a coup, particularly in terms of design. Is it just because that is all we have?

It had the most investment and was owned by the largest shopping mall developer at the time when it was redeveloped by the DeBartolo Corp. It has since become part of the Simon Properties which is the largest shopping mall owner. They had the clout to be able to attract the larger chains during the retail boom of the early 90's. So part of it was good ownership with connections and a massive redevelopment essentially creating a new mall at the right time.

[Spartan]

So right, Nick. The Legends in Kansas City, Firewheel in Garland, we could go on and on. OKC is really lacking here. I've seen these things go up fast across the country. All of this, "It's coming, they're going to build housing and then......" That's not how it's done. And nobody in Oklahoma City has been able to get it done.

KC has multiple true town center developments...Legends West, Zona Rosa, Tiffany Springs, and so on and so on.. Country Club Plaza is one of the very first town center case examples from the same period as Utica Square. The DFW area has many times more than that..Firewheel, Southlake, just a ton of them. Highland Park Village is Dallas' version of Utica Square/Plaza. They are getting new retail tenants. OKC isn't.

OKC is too busy adding more strip malls. That's what Quail Springs Ranch was, good thing it didn't come to pass. The new Targets in the metro have also pretty much been strip malls. Moore is becoming a strip mall haven. Westgate, along the NW Expressway, and so on and so forth. Belle Isle. Etc.

So if all of your retail developments are strip malls but what you want is town centers.. the answer is simple. Ban strip malls. Worried about competition from Norman and Edmond? Simple, make it an ACOG solution. Banning strip malls would be popular with idiot voters, too, who are typically opposed to commerce. A lot of OKC's issues could be solved from the Planning Dept.

Stop requiring surface parking, stop requiring huge setbacks everywhere, get rid of building codes that make REAL downtown lofts impossible, stop letting people tear down any buildings that stand close to towers, and stop letting developers build crappy retail strip malls that will deteriorate quickly. You'd be amazed how all of OKC's problems will vanish and OKC suddenly joins the same league as Tulsa, retail-wise.

Or you can be like metro and others continuing to deny that OKC has a problem. Sprawlers Anonymous: Admitting that you have a problem is the first step.

[mugofbeer]

Man! I disagree with you on a lot of things you have said, but you are spot on with this post.

[ljbab728]

KC has multiple true town center developments...Legends West, Zona Rosa, Tiffany Springs, and so on and so on.. Country Club Plaza is one of the very first town center case examples from the same period as Utica Square. The DFW area has many times more than that..Firewheel, Southlake, just a ton of them. Highland Park Village is Dallas' version of Utica Square/Plaza. They are getting new retail tenants. OKC isn't.

OKC is too busy adding more strip malls. That's what Quail Springs Ranch was, good thing it didn't come to pass. The new Targets in the metro have also pretty much been strip malls. Moore is becoming a strip mall haven. Westgate, along the NW Expressway, and so on and so forth. Belle Isle. Etc.

So if all of your retail developments are strip malls but what you want is town centers.. the answer is simple. Ban strip malls. Worried about competition from Norman and Edmond? Simple, make it an ACOG solution. Banning strip malls would be popular with idiot voters, too, who are typically opposed to commerce. A lot of OKC's issues could be solved from the Planning Dept.

Stop requiring surface parking, stop requiring huge setbacks everywhere, get rid of building codes that make REAL downtown lofts impossible, stop letting people tear down any buildings that stand close to towers, and stop letting developers build crappy retail strip malls that will deteriorate quickly. You'd be amazed how all of OKC's problems will vanish and OKC suddenly joins the same league as Tulsa, retail-wise.

Or you can be like metro and others continuing to deny that OKC has a problem. Sprawlers Anonymous: Admitting that you have a problem is the first step.

Spartan, I don't disagree with your concept about how things should be developed but how do you ban the things you propose and how does that help? Do Tulsa or Dallas or Kansas City ban strip malls? I don't think so. I' ve seen plenty of them there. What do those cities do to promote these kinds of developments that OKC doesn't do? Exactly what kind of building or zoning requirements do they have that we don't have here?