Let's keep the momentum, keep moving forward!

[Mikemarsh51]

Junkie, you got to be kidding. Tinker is 100% in Okc. The only part that isn't is the approach the county bought.

[Wambo36]

LOL...I had always thought it was in Mid-Del, but looked at a map and Tinker is in the OKC city limits.

True that. The benefit to the Mid-Del area is that the employees tend to live or shop in that area, but not always. Tinker employees can be found living anywhere in the metro and way beyond. Lunch is certainly a boon to Air Depot or 29th St. merchants.

[Mikemarsh51]

Just to get back on the subject, when the citizens voted to add 200 additional firefighters the total manpower was 748. After all of them were hired and 5 new stations were built we had 948. If as reported by channel 5 this morning, discussions are being held at council to lay off 139. That would bring us to 809. That is a far cry from what was voted on. Please contact your council member and tell them you want the city to keep up with the growth in population and not to cut essential services!

[Midtowner]

I wonder how much more firefighters cost in 2010 than they did back then?

[metro]

Sounds to me this is a good time to reconsider consolidating services into a county operation instead of individual municipalities. I know Mick slightly pushed for this a few years ago, but some communities didn't welcome him. Sorry folks, but this is part of operating in a major metro area. At some point, countywide services make more sense. I think the dialogues should at least begin.

[Midtowner]

Sounds to me this is a good time to reconsider consolidating services into a county operation instead of individual municipalities. I know Mick slightly pushed for this a few years ago, but some communities didn't welcome him. Sorry folks, but this is part of operating in a major metro area. At some point, countywide services make more sense. I think the dialogues should at least begin.

Not gonna happen. The folks in Edmond don't want to pay for police in fire in NE OKC... and guess which voting block has A LOT more clout?

While you can argue about efficiency and all that 'til your blue in the face (and probably be right), the fact is that the more well-off communities aren't going to let this happen, and without an agreement or legislative action at the state level, this'll never happen.

[Mikemarsh51]

Midtowner, can that be a relevant argument? Wages increase as the tax collections increase. The PD and FD bargain for a % of the ten city average. So it all seems like it is increasing in equal amounts.

You are correct about there is never going to be a county fire dept. Same reason as why the small depts. are still not annexed. People won't give up their own city dept. Alot of people don't want to be considered in Okc or Norman when they live in Moore. Kinda a pride in ownership of their own city.

[metro]

A pride that holds back efficiency.

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

Not gonna happen. The folks in Edmond don't want to pay for police in fire in NE OKC... and guess which voting block has A LOT more clout?

While you can argue about efficiency and all that 'til your blue in the face (and probably be right), the fact is that the more well-off communities aren't going to let this happen, and without an agreement or legislative action at the state level, this'll never happen.

You are absolutely correct, this will never happen.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner, can that be a relevant argument? Wages increase as the tax collections increase. The PD and FD bargain for a % of the ten city average. So it all seems like it is increasing in equal amounts.

So then wages should decrease as tax collections decrease?

[Mikemarsh51]

Midtowner, that falls under the cities ability to fund essential services. Consider at city that has had a downturn in tax collections, and is broke and you are correct. But you also have to look at a city that has had the same downturn yet they have between 80-90 million dollars in reseves. That city has the ability to fund those services through the downturn.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner, that falls under the cities ability to fund essential services. Consider at city that has had a downturn in tax collections, and is broke and you are correct. But you also have to look at a city that has had the same downturn yet they have between 80-90 million dollars in reseves. That city has the ability to fund those services through the downturn.

Are you saying the city has 80-90MM in reserve?

[Mikemarsh51]

We are looking Into it and it is not unreasonable for them to have that much in reserve.

[Midtowner]

We are looking Into it and it is not unreasonable for them to have that much in reserve.

I have a feeling that even if things were running smooth and we did have that much in reserve that the unions would be insatiable with regard to wage increases and new personnel. In fact, they'd hold up the existence of that reserve fund as exhibit "a" as to why the city could afford those things.

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

We are looking Into it and it is not unreasonable for them to have that much in reserve.

By law the city has to maintain a 6% rainy day fund. RESERVES.
OKC the last time I checked had over 10%, which should equate to
somewhere in the vicinity of 85 million dollars, but who is counting.

If this is not a rainy day, I dont know what is.

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

By law the city has to maintain a 6% rainy day fund. RESERVES.
OKC the last time I checked had over 10%, which should equate to
somewhere in the vicinity of 85 million dollars, but who is counting.

If this is not a rainy day, I dont know what is.

The one variable that the city is well aware of is both of the contracts for the P and F, are based on the ability to pay. That is why they attempt to be broke and plead poor everytime a P and F contract comes up for renewal.
I think the point that Mike and others are trying to make is that they have heard this song and dance many times in the past. Ex. The city revenues are up, they plead poor, they fight the p and f for everything they are entitled too according to the 10 city avg and end up getting a contract settled 6 month into the next fiscal year. Sound familiar. From what I am too understand, this is a common occurrence with the P and F contract negotiations, so I think that it would be tough for PS employees to believe anything that the city tells them.

According to city budget director, sales tax revenue has been down for sometime now. Before the sales tax numbers were down, okc enjoyed a 10% plus rainy day fund. Maybe Andy could help us out here with some figures.

[okcsmokeandfire]

I have a feeling that even if things were running smooth and we did have that much in reserve that the unions would be insatiable with regard to wage increases and new personnel. In fact, they'd hold up the existence of that reserve fund as exhibit "a" as to why the city could afford those things.

The unions are the firefighters and police officers. That is who the unions are not some guys from back east who break legs and bury people in concrete. lol
Makes for some good reading though.

If being insatiable is wanting to be paid and staffed like your peer fire depts. and police depts. then so be it. Cities like Moore, Norman, Edmond, MWC, they seem to be making it happen. They are getting away from us, OKC is holding them back instead of being the standard that they attempt to measure too. Great job.

[Mikemarsh51]

Midtowner you just couldn't help it! Here we are having a decent conversation and you have to go and act like that.

You seem to want to lump all unions together and you can't, the police and fire unions do not control who gets a job, don't control contracts for work, don't decide who gets preferential treatment like the unions back east. They represent employees in regards to wages, benefits and working conditions. They represent us and that's all, they can't control who gets the contract for garbage removal or how much the price of cement is!

Let's back up and recall that we understand things are bad and are still trying to give back the arbitraitors award of a raise. We are people who live in the area and really want what is best for all of us.

[barnold]

I wonder how much more firefighters cost in 2010 than they did back then?

I wonder how much more a city manager costs in 2010? Think the percentages of the two are equal? Betcha a coke the CM is much, much more nowadays.

[Larry OKC]

People keep saying this (not on here but in my family and friends). They keep saying the city is taking dollars dedicated to public safety and using those dollars on other projects and in other departments but not one single person has provided a news video or article that backs up their claim. Nor has anyone provided any data of any sort.

I can get on a forum or on the phone with a friend and say the city is moving money raised from the public safety sales tax and is going to use it to buy beer and legos. Doesn't make it true.

If this is happening its bad news and should be brought to everyone's attention...but why can't anyone provide anything beyond heresay?

While I don't have the specific links handy, I hope this helps as an example (was part of one of the various Fire/Police threads or maybe the Hockey/Cox improvements)

Reportedly, the original source of funds for the Cox Hockey improvements is from the MAPS for Kids Use Tax (that tax ended over a year ago). This is not to be confused with the actual MAPS for Kids tax which was to be exclusively for the schools. “Use taxes are charged instead of sales taxes to businesses that buy items outside of Oklahoma City for use within the city.” (if the other state doesn’t impose a tax). The accompanying Use Tax can be used for whatever purpose the Council decides. Originally that money was earmarked for public safety. The Council recently decided to take that earmarked money (changing their intent, just as they did under MAPS with the Bass Pro deal). This is perfectly legal (as the court decided w/Bass Pro). But just because it is legal, doesn't make it right. IMO

They are in essence loaning themselves the money thru the operator of the Cox (SMG) to be paid back at least partially through the $2 ticket charge. Presuming sell-outs with a seating capacity of 13,399 x $2 = $26,798/game x 40 reg season games = $1.072M/year. (20 dates are reserved in April and May for any potential playoff games which would contribute). Best case scenario isn’t all that bad in number of years to pay back the loan. Unless you are depending on that $4M and the public safety equipment it would have purchased. In theory, after the loan is paid back, the money will once again be used for the earmarked public safety.

[Larry OKC]

Are you saying the city has 80-90MM in reserve?

Sounds about right, according to the latest Budget Report (available for download from the City's site, okc.gov), pg 33 (42 of the 633 pdf file)

FY 08/09 $87,290,555
FY 09/10 $80,076,782

Take a look at the myriad of funds the City has (many are dedicated, but a lot are discretionary) pg 34 (43 of the pdf file) some duplicates may remain, some were listed more than once)

1. General Fund
2. Internal Service Funds
3. Court Administration & Training Fund
4. Emergency Management Fund
5. Fire Sales Tax Fund
6. Hotel/Motel Tax Fund*
7. MAPS Operations Fund*
8. Medical Service (Ambulance) Program Fund
9. OCMAPS Sales Tax Fund*
10. Police Sales Tax Fund*
11. Police/Fire Capital Equipment Use Tax Fund
12. Zoo Sales Tax Fund
13. Airports Cash Fund
14. Solid Waste Management Cash Fund
15. Storm Water Drainage Utility Fund*
16. Public Transportation and Parking Cash Fund
17. Water/Wastewater Cash Fund
18. Capital Improvement Projects Fund
19. City and Schools Capital Projects Use Tax Fund
20. Hotel / Motel Tax Fund*
21. MAPS Operations Fund*
22. MAPS Sales Tax Fund
23. OCMAPS Sales Tax Fund*
24. Police / Fire Capital Equipment Sales Tax Fund
25. Sports Facilities Sales Tax Fund
26. Sports Facilities Use Tax Fund
27. Storm Water Drainage Fund*
28. Street & Alley Fund
29. Arbitrage Reserve Fund
30. Asset Forfeiture Fund
31. Debt Service Fund
32. Grants Management Fund
33. OKC Improvement & Special Assess District
34. Special Purpose Fund
*Indicates the Fund has both an Operating and Non-Operating Component

[andy157]

I wonder how much more firefighters cost in 2010 than they did back then?

This City has more management employees than it does Firefighters. How much more do management employees cost in 2010 than they did back then?

[unclefrank58]

We are in a recession, if your worried about crime, buy a gun, protect yourself. If your worried about fires, get insurance. If your house catches fire even if they put it out you are most likely going to have to replace everything anyways due to smoke and water damage. Money is better spent elsewhere given the current state of the economy.

[rcjunkie]

This City has more management employees than it does Firefighters. How much more do management employees cost in 2010 than they did back then?

Sorry to disagree, but this statement is 100% false.

[ewoodard]

A pride that holds back efficiency.

Being from MWC, I don't want a county fire or police departments due to the fact that MWC fire is the only high rated fire service in the state which lowers my home insurance premiums. I don't want a drop off in the availabilty of service due to increased response times. The surrounding cities/towns have mutual aid agreements in the county to assist in fire/police protection as it stands now. Why should they consent to county wide services?