Again, Tulsa gets the first store

[mugofbeer]

Thanks Steve and really, I am not blaming it all on the DOK but as one of the contributing factors that may, or may not be slowly going away. I don't know if the info in your article is new news or not to local leaders and/or the Chamber of Commerce, but it certainly gives them a big huge target of perception to try and change.

[onthestrip]

How many other quality shopping centers are there in Tulsa? In OKC, you guys are forgetting about Tuscana, although I do admit it is not finished. Then there is Classen Curve, and University Towne Center in Norman, which is being built in phases.

What Penn needs to do is expand their retail space and build another parking garage, since it will involve tearing out a chunk of surface parking.

Old tricks are the best tricks.

As someone mentioned, Tuscana is nowhere near being completed. Classen Curve doesnt have the size/depth to get most national retailers. And University Towne Center isnt able to attract an Anthropologie at this point. Maybe they could when they are able to develop the rest of the center, Im referring to the portion that is more of the open air mall and not the big box retailer/power center portion.

I agree about Penn Square. Whether there is enough space and how they would expand are questions that would have to be answered but they would have no trouble leasing up newly built space.

[BG918]

As someone mentioned, Tuscana is nowhere near being completed. Classen Curve doesnt have the size/depth to get most national retailers. And University Towne Center isnt able to attract an Anthropologie at this point. Maybe they could when they are able to develop the rest of the center, Im referring to the portion that is more of the open air mall and not the big box retailer/power center portion.

I agree about Penn Square. Whether there is enough space and how they would expand are questions that would have to be answered but they would have no trouble leasing up newly built space.

That is the problem with Penn Square, it's full. That is a good 'problem' to have though, and one that Utica Square also has i.e. Anthropologie is going in the old Harold's space. An expansion would be costly but may be what is needed for new stores to enter the OKC market. They could consolidate parking in another garage and expand to the west or south.

[Spartan]

The amazing thing about Penn Square is that it really isn't even that nice. In fact it looks like crap on the outside, despite being pretty nice on the interior. The bottom line is that Oklahoma City more than almost anywhere else has a serious dearth of nice retail space. Where would an Anthropologie or Urban Outfitters in OKC locate, Crossroads Mall? Quail Springs Mall? Seriously..

[mugofbeer]

As someone mentioned, Tuscana is nowhere near being completed. Classen Curve doesnt have the size/depth to get most national retailers. And University Towne Center isnt able to attract an Anthropologie at this point. Maybe they could when they are able to develop the rest of the center, Im referring to the portion that is more of the open air mall and not the big box retailer/power center portion.

I agree about Penn Square. Whether there is enough space and how they would expand are questions that would have to be answered but they would have no trouble leasing up newly built space.

It would be tough to expand unless they made parking decks all around and expanded to the north but there isn't much room there, either.

[Steve]

I suspect the answer is across the street at 50 Penn Place - IF - and this is a big if, if it could get new owners who would be willing to gut the current mall, totally reinvent it.

[bluedogok]

The answer would have been where Belle Isle Station is located before Wal Mart and the big box mall went in.

[kevinpate]

I know, I'm not taking it personally. But sometimes - especially when I hear E.L. Gaylord, dead since 2003, being blamed for everything that ails this city and state, I just cringe. Again, I must emphasize, I'm not about to say things are perfect. I'm also not foolish enough to start detailing my home's flaws if you get my drift. But maybe it's time to delve a bit deeper into what's at play here instead of going to the old standby of "blame the dark tower."

There are peeps who don't accept moon landings, and peeps who would swear Elvis bumped into them at one place or another. All things considered, it isn't really surprising to me to entertain the notion some peeps may cotton to the notion that ELG is still calling some shots, whether hither or yon.

[Steve]

Elvis is still alive. He along with JFK has been battling killer mummies at a nursing home in Texas.

[Kerry]

I'd like to know what kind of idiot would use leakage as a reason to not open a store in a certain city...If I owned a retail store in Dallas, and found out a large chunk of my clients came from OKC, common sense would tell me that opening a store there would work

Just watch one episode of Undercover Boss to answer your question. It has been my experience that anyone over the job title of Sr. Manager is a moron. Most companies earn a profit be sheer luck and/or accident.

[LakeEffect]

The amazing thing about Penn Square is that it really isn't even that nice. In fact it looks like crap on the outside, despite being pretty nice on the interior. The bottom line is that Oklahoma City more than almost anywhere else has a serious dearth of nice retail space. Where would an Anthropologie or Urban Outfitters in OKC locate, Crossroads Mall? Quail Springs Mall? Seriously..

Classen Curve... or maybe Campus Corner in Norman.

[onthestrip]

Classen Curve... or maybe Campus Corner in Norman.

Again, although Classen Curve is new and nice, it doesnt have the space for an Urban Outfitters or Anthropologie. Classen Cureve simply isnt big enough. Campus Corner could possibly attract one but its probably not likely. UA and Anthro prefer to locate in areas with other retailers, Campus Corner isnt so much of a retail center as it has mostly eating and drinking establishments. Also, is there any available space at Campus Corner? Urban Outfitters stores are like 10,000sf or more. At this moment in time, I wouldnt expect to see any new popular national retailers locate to OKC anytime soon. Not including outlet concepts that will open if and when they build the new outlet center at Council and I40.

[redrunner]

It would be tough to expand unless they made parking decks all around and expanded to the north but there isn't much room there, either.

Would it be possible for Penn Square to expand upward versus outward. I know of some shopping malls that were 1 level at first and expanded to 2 levels. Don't know if this is possible going from 2 to 3 levels.

[stlokc]

When I was home over Easter, I walked around Classen Curve with my parents. Seems that has the potential to be a pathbreaking shopping center. This is probably the wrong thread for this, but my family's conversation turned to Nichols Hills Plaza. If CC is going to be the new destination, what's in store for NHP? Lots of potential there for nice stores to locate if it can be revitalized. Those two centers along with the multitude of storefronts along Western north of 63rd could firm the nucleus of a much bigger district of upscale shops...all the pieces are in place with some TLC. I also noticed the large swath across May from Lakehurst is still mostly empty. That seems a prime place fir a Spring Creek esque infill project. I think there are lots of possibilities across the Nichols Hills - bordering parts of OKC.

[stlokc]

Sorry for my spelling errors...damn iPhone keyboard!

[mugofbeer]

Again, although Classen Curve is new and nice, it doesnt have the space for an Urban Outfitters or Anthropologie. Classen Cureve simply isnt big enough. Campus Corner could possibly attract one but its probably not likely. UA and Anthro prefer to locate in areas with other retailers, Campus Corner isnt so much of a retail center as it has mostly eating and drinking establishments. Also, is there any available space at Campus Corner? Urban Outfitters stores are like 10,000sf or more. At this moment in time, I wouldnt expect to see any new popular national retailers locate to OKC anytime soon. Not including outlet concepts that will open if and when they build the new outlet center at Council and I40.

Most of Penn Square is already 2 stories, though - maybe all of it, I rarely go to that north end.

[redrunner]

Yes, I know Penn Square is already 2 stories. I'm proposing going to 3 levels.

[ljbab728]

There is another aspect to the issue that Steve can't/won't discuss because it involves his own employer. I face-to-face asked the man in charge of setting office locations for my ex-employer why they hadn't opened an office here when it was by far the largest city in the US without a local presence. He told me flat-out that, per capita, OKC is significantly more expensive to advertise in by newspaper than any other major city in the country.

My ex employer has offices in most every major American city. Many of their offices are in much smaller communities than OKC because of concentrations of wealth. This was about 10 years ago so it may have changed some but I would imagine it hasn't changed that much. This company does advertise significantly by newspaper and other media types but probably not enough to warrant huge discounts I know the Oklahoman offers. However, when they do it is designed to catch your eye by being half to full page adds, etc.

Try checking the Dallas Morning News and the Oklahoman on the same day. You will see advertisements by national chains that may be full to multi-page adds in the DMN but are only half to 1/4 page adds here.

Steve's article just verifies what I think we have discussed in this thread previously and basically already know. I believe that there are some inaccuracies in the data many of these retailers go by, however. For example, there is a chicken-or-the-egg aspect. Why do OKCitians go elsewhere to buy certain things? IMO, Part of the reason is that we have gone on shopping trips to Dallas for a long time - as has already been stated. OU-TEXAS weekend is a good case in point. Also, OKCitians go elsewhere to shop BECAUSE these retailers aren't here. If they were, we would shop at them HERE! Finally, when shopping for large ticket items such as furniture, stores in Dallas will ship here with no sales tax. That can be a significant savings factor.

As I work for a company that occasionally advertises in the Oklahoman in conjunction with some national advertisers, I agree. Everyone says the Oklahoman is outrageous in their pricing. It can't encourage outside companies.

As far as shopping out of state, I have lived in the Oklahoma City area all of my 63 years and have never once driven outside of the Oklahoma City area to look for something. I'm sure there is a segment of the population which will do that for some kind of prestige status but it's never interested me. If I can't find it here it's just not something that I need that badly.

[HOT ROD]

maybe you're part of the demographic which brings OKC down then, since one of the claims that retailers make about OKC is the perceived lack of high end shoppers, lack of density (falsely made due to OKC's rural mass), lack of income and disposable income, lack of retailing corridors.

yep, sometimes OKC can't blame their problems on nobody but OKC.

[ljbab728]

maybe you're part of the demographic which brings OKC down then, since one of the claims that retailers make about OKC is the perceived lack of high end shoppers, lack of density (falsely made due to OKC's rural mass), lack of income and disposable income, lack of retailing corridors.

yep, sometimes OKC can't blame their problems on nobody but OKC.

Exactly, Hot Rod. My intention is to bring OKC down. If I thought for a minute that deannaxing land would benefit OKC in the slightest, I would be all for it. As I said you're looking for short term gains instead of the city's long term interests.

[BG918]

Classen Curve... or maybe Campus Corner in Norman.

I've always advocated a mixed-use development along University Blvd. through the west end of Campus Corner that would attract higher end stores with apartments above. That is if OU can part ways with its parking lots north of Boyd House. That stretch of University with McFarlin church to the north and Evans Hall and the North Oval to the south is one of the most beautiful in the OKC metro, all it needs is mixed use development with retail along it.

While Classen Curve has the potential to be like Utica Square the shopping/dining area that is most similar in the Metro is Norman's Campus Corner.

[HOT ROD]

what long term benefit has come from this strategy?

OKC spends most of it's municipal funds keeping rural ranches with utilities and services while the inner city has crumbled to the point of needing special taxation (aka MAPS) to jumpstart development?

Very nice strategy and definitely why OKC is the most successful city in America. ....

[ljbab728]

what long term benefit has come from this strategy?

OKC spends most of it's municipal funds keeping rural ranches with utilities and services while the inner city has crumbled to the point of needing special taxation (aka MAPS) to jumpstart development?

Very nice strategy and definitely why OKC is the most successful city in America. ....

You're talking like we have already reached the end of long term benefits. Think 50 or 100 years from now instead.

[NickFiggins]

what long term benefit has come from this strategy?

OKC spends most of it's municipal funds keeping rural ranches with utilities and services while the inner city has crumbled to the point of needing special taxation (aka MAPS) to jumpstart development?

Very nice strategy and definitely why OKC is the most successful city in America. ....

Here are a few benefits so far... A secured water source when cities in the Metroplex are proposing to purchase water at a premium. Continued new growth and added dollars to OKC sales tax. Also "most" of OKC's funds are not spent in the rural areas. Yes maybe an amount not proportionate to the population, but the cost is minimal compared to assured future revenue growth. Tulsa has't annexed so they get a few neat stores and 100 less cops and an outrageous crime rate.

[HOT ROD]

I thought OKC annexed that land decades ago. I thought Urban Renewal began 30 years ago?

My, and others, arguments have always been the suburbanization of Oklahoma City (through annexation, building outside the core, and destruction of the core) is what has killed OKC and held it back.

It has taken MAPS to bring investment back into the core. So, you tell me if annexation has benefitted OKC. ... Tell me how OKC expanded it's tax base.

OKC didn't even expand it's population with this massive 608 sq mile area. And OKC certainly hasn't added any upper end quality of life amenities - again, attributable to lack of density.

So again, tell me how this strategy has benefitted OKC. ....

I'd argue that Tulsa has been far ahead of OKC (and still is) due to it's density and relative lack of area. Tulsa concentrates it's resources into a relatively small area and they have been successful.

Tulsa has other issues that speak of it's crime rate - and it really isn't fair to compare the two cities in the first place, since OKC is a major US city and Tulsa isn't. But despite their being significantly smaller, they have a much stronger corporate base and economic base that is more centralized and more focused (hence, more upscale retail options despite being some 400K smaller than the state's largest urban area). Yet Tulsa is only a fraction of a hair smaller than OKC when it comes to retail economy. ....

Again, tell me how annexation has expanded OKC's tax base, retail offerings, or population....

I do agree that it saved the water supply. But this could also be accomplished without annexation. See Seattle-King County Metro or Denver Metropolitan for information *ill give you a hint, they have MORE water resources without expanding city limits (and Seattle's/Denver's water doesn't come from anywhere touching it's municipal borders). So, actually OKC doesn't even need to 'protect' it's water supply.

time is now to deannex.