Streetcar

[okclee]

If you were to guess,

How long until the first street car is operating?

I ask, because I am hearing all of this is 10 years away, and this bothers me.

[Urban Pioneer]

Well, the thing that concerned me personally was Mr. Lackmeyer's article regarding the "Ten Years till we start" perspective. It turned out that the article was based on a couple of opinions. opinions from important people who can affect things, but opinions none the less. At the time, I feared that his article would "crystallize" that perspective before the committees and advisers could meet.

The opposite happened. People such as yourself called and emailed people up and down the line.

MTP worked on a messaging campaign to explain to people what the exact benefits were to working with Project 180 are. What at first seemed like a PR concern turned into actually helping to move the process forward.

We do not even have the steering committee fully in place yet. But the article called attention to the timing matter and our subsequent information release provoked a responsible response from the parties involved.

They have accelerated the public meetings to determine a preferred route in the 180 affected area in hopes that when the AA steering committee and the MAPS Oversight Committees begin meeting within the next month, we can come up with a recommendation for council. Assuming that a preferred route arrives to council quickly, the engineers can begin making the necessary changes to the 180 plan and subsequently install infrastructure once it is engineered.

So (my guess) is that you will see bits and pieces of the streetcar system (or preparation) going in over time as the streets are updated via 180 and the other MAPS Projects. Keep in mind that it takes about three years to get a streetcar from the manufacturer. So, factoring all of those elements, the fastest we could have part of the system functional is about 5 years from now up to 10 years.

The only way I see us actually "starting" the streetcar construction in 10 years is if the MAPS Oversight board and Council chose that time line.

[Doug Loudenback]

I attended the evening meeting last night as an invited guest blogger. You can read what I wrote about that meeting in my own blog here or at the LetsTalkTransit website. You can also read what guest blogger Charifa Smith said about the mid-day meeting yesterday here and what guest blogger Sam Smith said about the same mid-day meeting here.

Basically, I gave the March 29 meetings a pass, a Kings-X. The evening meeting (and I presume the mid-day meeting) really did not involve any public input but consisted of presentations amounting to an informercial on the value of modern streetcars. Bryan Dean said as much in his Oklahoman article.

Like I said in my own article, we've been there and done that during the MAPS 3 campaign. No need existed to resell last evening's audience of 40 or so who were probably there to learn something they did not already know or embrace. My guess is that they wanted to hear more than they did.

Sometimes, though, presenters want to start from ground zero and move up, regardless of the audience's knowledge level, hence the "pass" or "Kings-X".

I'll be attending the upcoming meetings, and no more Kings-X's will be allowed as to public participation and/or discussion of alternative routes -- neither of which items were discussed in yesterday's sessions.

The evening session was brief, lasting less than 60 minutes, and no voices were heard other than the presenters'. That's not what public discussion is all about. So, while I gave COTPA a pass on this 1st meeting -- it is obviously trying to be good and was, it seemed, laying the stage for more to come -- it will be the last one that I give.

[LetsTalkTransit]

Thursday, April 8 is the last day to complete the Let's Talk Transit Survey 1 telling us where you want the Modern Streetcar to go in Downtown Oklahoma City! We want to hear from you, take the survey today!

Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority is seeking to engage the community in several public forum settings - public meetings and online at LetsTalkTransit.com.

The next Let’s Talk Transit public meeting is Tuesday, April 13, 2010 starting at 6 pm in the Civic Center's Hall of Mirrors. This meeting will have a workshop environment with a hands-on activity. The public meetings and online forum seek to collect input from citizens and groups interested in public transportation, specifically public transportation in downtown Oklahoma City.

LetsTalkTransit.com will be the digital venue for participating in the discussion. Here you can catch-up on the public meetings, learn more about the process/goals/objectives, give your input through online surveys and polls, submit questions to COTPA staff or read and comment on the most recent TransitTALK guest blog postings.

[Architect2010]

Hey guys. The second survey is up at Let's Talk Transit and you can go directly to it from here.

If you can't make it to the meetings then the very least anyone could do is fill out the survey. Incredibly simple survey, but also very important. Let's get involved just a tad bit more.

[jbrown84]

Thanks for the link, Architect!

[Doug Loudenback]

I've been to the 1st 2 "Let's Talk Transit" meetings (3/28 and 4/13) and am posting my observations about those meetings (and those yet to occur) here: Doug Dawgz Blog: Blogging Rail At LetsTalkTransit as well as at the Let's Talk Transit blogger portal page. As you will see at the last link, 4 other guest bloggers are doing the same. The others are Charifa Smith, Nick Roberts (you know him as Spartan here), Dean Schirf, and Sam Sims.

Frankly, I'm surprised and disappointed that more have not attended those meetings. The one on Tuesday, 4/13, was only attended by 40-45 people, inclusive of city personnel, and it was an exceptionally good meeting, ultra-public participatory. Despite the (what I consider to be ) low turnout, those who were there were fully engaged. I'm one who criticized the MAPS 3 process because of my perception that public input was really not provided for ... but if the public doesn't participate when given the opportunity, the public is basically punting on the opportunity and after-the-fact (i.e., after routes have been decided upon) complaints about location are pretty hollow.

Additional meetings will be held on April 29, May 11 (both at 6:00 - 7:30 pm at the 2nd floor Music Hall's Hall of Mirrors), and May 27 (City Council chambers at 11:30 am - 1 pm and 6:00 - 7:30 pm).

Architect2010, were you at the meeting on Tuesday? If so, I'm sorry that we didn't meet. Perhaps we'll both be at the April 29 meeting.

[sgray]

Question: outside of forums like OKCTalk and the organizations' web sites themselves, where do any of these public meetings get posted? I mean where regular citizens, regardless of whether they get their feed from the newspaper, television, radio, or internet...where else does this stuff get posted? WHERE CAN I GO EVERY NOW AND THEN AND HAVE A LIST OF ALL THE PUBLIC EVENTS LIKE THESE AND KNOW AHEAD OF TIME, WHAT IS GOING ON?

I'll tell you something. I only found out about the LetsTalkTransit meetings AFTER the first one had taken place. You know HOW I found out? Not from reading the flyer that comes stuffed with my utility bill, not on any local media or bulletin boards, not in the newspaper, not on channel 5 or newsok or okc.gov..............I found out after the post was made on OKCtalk.com, urging people to participate.

It doesn't surprise me at all that few showed up to the meeting. And no, I don't blame a single person in this city for not knowing about it. People have families and lives to live. They can't quit their jobs and spend all day, everyday, researching and digging through tons of websites where there may have popped up a mention of a meeting.

While this is my OPINION, I believe that a majority of people within this city WANT TO PARTICIPATE, WANT TO HELP, and are genuinely GOOD PEOPLE. I see it and hear it from lots of them. I hear frustration when people find out that things that took place without them knowing about it, when they try so hard to stay connected.

Good grief people, how many working groups and organizations does this city have on transit alone now, not to mention the groups/organizations for the dozens of other things happening. I believe that these groups and organizations (LetsTalkTransit, MTP, etc) really DO want to help this city in a great way and I think it's a shame that we can't do the simplest of things: communicate.


Our city owns and operates a web site, which could feasibly host a simple event list, with submissions from local groups/organizations, does it not? Who pays for that thing? Some individual, corporation, or US TAXPAYERS?

Our city has newspaper(s) with space to print hot topic events, does it not?

Our city has access to many public, high-traffic areas to feasibly place information on hot topic events, does it not?

Our city has television stations that frequently report on happenings within the city, does it not?



OLDER folks aren't necessarily all into high-tech things like twitter, facebook, etc, are they? Younger folks aren't necessarily all into reading newspapers or watching lengthy local television news segments, are they? This obviously means more than one method of publishing said list will be required.


We could argue this crap all day long, but the writing is on the wall. Mr Loudenback witnessed it first-hand the other day. Until we FIX our city's communication problem, we wont have the participation and public support we all speak of and desire.


Personally, I wanted to get back involved with the local transit stuff, but I've got to tell you in all honesty, my attitude towards it right now is almost at the "to hell with it" point. While that may sound bad, I am just sharing the truth on how my drive to help has went from an extreme high to being ram-rodded into the ground by seeing this disconnect first-hand. It's just depressing to walk into a room and see what Mr Loudenback witnessed. I don't need that. If it's happening and there is communication and participation, you can count me in 200%. But not like that.


Anyone care to offer their thoughts on how we can go about "connecting the wires" between the city/organizations and the citizens? If it's a constructive plan, I'm on board to help make it happen.


Let's quit ignoring what we all know is fact. Let's work together to solve this solvable problem.

[CuatrodeMayo]

I've been to the 1st 2 "Let's Talk Transit" meetings (3/28 and 4/13) and am posting my observations about those meetings (and those yet to occur) here: Doug Dawgz Blog: Blogging Rail At LetsTalkTransit as well as at the Let's Talk Transit blogger portal page. As you will see at the last link, 4 other guest bloggers are doing the same. The others are Charifa Smith, Nick Roberts (you know him as Spartan here), Dean Schirf, and Sam Sims.

Frankly, I'm surprised and disappointed that more have not attended those meetings. The one on Tuesday, 4/13, was only attended by 40-45 people, inclusive of city personnel, and it was an exceptionally good meeting, ultra-public participatory. Despite the (what I consider to be ) low turnout, those who were there were fully engaged. I'm one who criticized the MAPS 3 process because of my perception that public input was really not provided for ... but if the public doesn't participate when given the opportunity, the public is basically punting on the opportunity and after-the-fact (i.e., after routes have been decided upon) complaints about location are pretty hollow.

Additional meetings will be held on April 29, May 11 (both at 6:00 - 7:30 pm at the 2nd floor Music Hall's Hall of Mirrors), and May 27 (City Council chambers at 11:30 am - 1 pm and 6:00 - 7:30 pm).

Architect2010, were you at the meeting on Tuesday? If so, I'm sorry that we didn't meet. Perhaps we'll both be at the April 29 meeting.

Yes, I was quite shocked at the sparsely populated tables.

[Urban Pioneer]

If you missed the FIRST survey, MTP has had it reopened until Thursday, April 22nd.

We are also sending out a mass e-mail shortly with both surveys attached. I heard from many people that they were concerned with entering their name and e-mail. COTPA is asking for that to prevent the possibility of the information from being subverted by multiple entries by the same person. It will not be used in any subversive way.

Survey 1 is about Where do you think the streetcar should go?" Survey 2 is about How often and what hours of operation?


Survey 1 | A Community Discussion on Oklahoma City's Modern Streetcar and Alternatives Analysis, Central Oklaho

[the hip]

I completed Part I of the "Let's Talk Transit" Survey. It was a good survey... it asked the right questions and made me feel involved in the process.
But Part II of the survey is very difficult. Question 5 and 6!?! I feel like I need to be a transportation planner! I can't finish it! It’s long and cumbersome. How would I know "how often should the streetcar come by a location" when I don't even know one location?

Am I the only one who feels this way?

Tell Us What YOU Think! | A Community Discussion on Oklahoma City's Modern Streetcar and Alternatives Analysis, Central Oklaho

I believe the next survey should be shorter and friendly to the streetcar novice and OKC residents/workers. It should focus on the top locations voted on in Part I of the survey. Once the locations of the stations are finalized, then we can worry about schedules.

I worry that this “public discussion" is turning off supporters of the streetcar.

[Architect2010]

On question 5, you need to just guesstimate how frequently the streetcar should pass a certain stop. During extreme mornings, it will be less frequent. During lunch and dinners it will be frequent. Generally, evenings should be more frequent due to downtown activity, especially on weekends. Regarding question number 6. That can be a bit difficult, but it's really just asking what you think is most important for the streetcar to function most efficiently. Obviously connectivity to population and employment density would help, which includes major employment centers, housing developments, community and cultural centers, and etc. It is also important to link the line to less developed and underutilized portions of downtown to expediate and encourage development.

I wouldn't think too much or hard on some of the questions. They're general questions looking for general answers. They aren't expecting professionals to answer this so I'm sure they anticipate some confusion and that's fine.

Glad you took part in the surveys Hip. And I do agree that it should be "dumbed-down" just a tad more for the more novice, but concerned transit advocates among us.

[jbrown84]

Yeah the new survey took a little more thinking, but I was glad to put in my two cents!

[Urban Pioneer]

This past week, a bill led by Representative Joyner and Senator Cliff Branan successfully made it to Governor Henry with no opposition. Bill Nations co-sponsored the bill

A MTP Board Adviser and RTD subcommittee member, Mr. Bob Kemper, worked extremely hard to make sure that the scope was broad enough pave the way for any city, town, and/or county to jointly create a transportation authority. Former Senator Dave Herbert worked hard on this project.

To put it into context for central Oklahoma, this bill "lays-the-track" for the process we are in with area municipalities, Regional Transit Dialogue, to move forward in an appropriate manner to form a true RTA. There may need to be some technical tweaks to the language as the formal structure of such a possible entity comes out of the dialogue.

However, this bill full-fills the bulk of the necessary rights to even consider moving forward. It also shows us how even our state government understands the importance of creating an improved transit environment across the state.

CS for HB 2846,
by Rep. Charles Joyner, R-Midwest City

Adds language to allow
agencies of cities, towns and counties to
jointly create a transportation authority. It
also removes language relating to regional
economic development authorities. It
requires sales tax that may be levied
to be designated for the purposes of
transportation-related projects within the
boundary of the authority. It sets the lifetime
of a transportation authority created under
the bill to last until the cessation of the
project. The committee substitute adds
definition. It restores language relating to
regional economic development projects.
It also restores language preventing
transportation authorities from having the
right to exercise eminent domain. It clarifies
language relating to a sales tax being levied
by the authority. It also adds language
allowing the sales tax to be used for the
purposes of construction, maintenance
and operation of transportation projects.
It states that a transportation authority or
regional economic development authority
will exist during the operation of the
project and no later than one year after
cessation of the project. It allows for a
transportation authority to provide for
the financing of a transportation system
utilizing any revenue measures available
along with revenue from user fees. It
removes language relating to resolutions.

"This is an innocuous bill on first reading, but its downstream effect can potentially become most powerful, taking Oklahoma in a new transportation direction for light rail, commuter rail, with a clean-cut funding potential that is not now available.", Bob Kemper

[Urban Pioneer]

Great post by Doug with LOTS of pictures of the last transit event and the various options that were presented for consideration by engineers. Tons of mapped proposals that we were working off of.

From east to west, north to south | A Community Discussion on Oklahoma City's Modern Streetcar and Alternatives Analysis, Central Oklaho

[Larry OKC]

That is one of the funniest "spoke and wheel" layouts I have seen. Was wondering how that would work when the Mayor mentioned it awhile back (since our street system is essentially a grid)

[Urban Pioneer]

That is one of the funniest "spoke and wheel" layouts I have seen. Was wondering how that would work when the Mayor mentioned it awhile back (since our street system is essentially a grid)

Don't follow you. Which one?

[Larry OKC]

Don't follow you. Which one?

The "combined" map near the bottom of Doug's post. Again, not exactly the shape that comes to mind when "spoke and wheel" is mentioned. Plenty of spokes, sure, but where is the central hub of the wheel and the outer "loop" that surrounds the spokes? Again, with a grid system it is hard to have anything other than a square wheel...LOL

Have nothing against the proposed routes or anything like that, just think they need to come up with a better description is all. I know I am being to literal but that is the image that comes to mind.

[Doug Loudenback]

Larry, when I've inquired of staff people at these meetings, none are willing to acknowledge that they've ever seen a spoke and wheel model along the lines of what Mayor Cornett seemed to prefer during the Maps 3 campaign. I get the sense that he is alone on this. In the sessions so far, none of the table-groups have so far come up with any such thing ... and I doubt at this point that any will. If the city had a street layout like Washington DC, that might fit ... but we have very few diagonals right here in River City. We are going to have north/south and east/west routes, maybe with a diagonal along Harrison, but that is all.

[Larry OKC]

Thanks Doug...that is what I was trying to say...I think...just gave me a laugh is all (but it makes me wonder where the Mayor came up with it).

To be fair here is what was actually written:

NewsOK

Oklahoma City MAPS 3 proposal includes streetcar system (Oklahoman, 11/29/09)

A specific route has not been chosen, but Cornett said he favors a "spoke and hub” system that would function as legitimate transit rather than a loop that would only really serve tourists.

A spot for the transit hub hasn’t been chosen either, although it will likely be located along the existing Amtrak rail line that runs through downtown, Cornett said.

Which brings up the point of where is the Transit Hub going to be? I would think the most logical place would be the Santa Fe station. Just from an aesthetic standpoint, I think the Union Station is a much more attractive building but with the removal of some tracks and the proximity of the relocated I-40, not sure if it is viable any more. Don't you need to know the hubs location in conjunction with any planning of the Streetcar Routes? Where they connect? Throw into the mix the need for determining the location of the Convention Center and maybe a couple of other important MAPS 3 proposed projects...

Unlike previous MAPS projects, they were fairly independent of each other. Didn't know where one was before you could proceed with another. That worked well with a primarily pay-as-you-go sales tax method of funding but could be an obstacle this time around. By that, I mean budgets are going to be tight. They can't afford the needless/wasteful duplication of effort (i.e., tearing up the streets once for Project 180/Streetcars). They only have $17M (2.2%) allocated for cost over runs when we all know that isn't nearly enough (based on MAPS and the City's admission projects average 8% over budget)

[Urban Pioneer]

Larry, when I've inquired of staff people at these meetings, none are willing to acknowledge that they've ever seen a spoke and wheel model along the lines of what Mayor Cornett seemed to prefer during the Maps 3 campaign. I get the sense that he is alone on this. In the sessions so far, none of the table-groups have so far come up with any such thing ... and I doubt at this point that any will. If the city had a street layout like Washington DC, that might fit ... but we have very few diagonals right here in River City. We are going to have north/south and east/west routes, maybe with a diagonal along Harrison, but that is all.

Actually, I think that the table groups are (are) coming out with "spoke and wheel" model. All the lines lead towards intersecting with a line on Sheridan and presumably the streetcars would make their way towards the new multi-modal hub on this major East-West corridor that keeps appearing.

It is important to understand the context of what the Mayor was concerned with. The concern came out of the 2005 Fixed Guideway Plan which depicted a large "loop" around downtown. In other discussions with the mayor, it was evident that he was trying to distance us from using the FGS "loop." So while you aren't seeing a while lot of "single iines" you are seeing single streets with double tracks or seeing constricted "loops" only spread out of a couple of streets.

So actually, we are starting to see "Hub and Spoke." This will become more evident over a long range plan with longer streetcar line over other areas coming back to the centralized transit hub. Its just the the MAPS streetcar initial project is in such a confined are those legs or tangents aren't becoming visible yet.

But anyways, again what he was talking about was making sure that we don't build a "closed loop system" that ended up being a "tourist ride", rather a system with "legs" that we can easily expand which (is) coming out of the group sessions.

Regarding the transit hub, ACOG Hub Study Oversight Committee should shortly begin the selection process to hire the engineering firm that will assess SantaFe and the other potential locations within the evaluation area.

[Urban Pioneer]

NEXT STREETCAR MEETINGS TOMORROW
Tuesday May 11th


6:00 PM - 8:00 PM

at the Civic Center (Hall of Mirrors)

This is the next to last of the public meetings scheduled. It is my understanding that they would have honed down the last public information gathered to several key options.

This is probably the last real opportunity out of this process to help assist determining a preferred route alignment. The final meeting will be about the results of this meeting.

[the hip]

There is only one meeting tomorrow evening @ 6pm... and you're missing a L in the second "public".

[Urban Pioneer]

There is only one meeting tomorrow evening @ 6pm... and you're missing a L in the second "public".

Thanks. My post is corrected. I just received an email from "Lets Talk Transit" which only lists one meeting time.

So take note. Only one meeting tomorrow at 6PM.

[okclee]

How was the meeting?