Can a Person be truly Moral and Ethical Without God?

[sam greenroyd]

I am not a church goer but I think the people who regularly go to church tend to hang out with positive people and that is contagious. Doesn't work with everyone but if you hang out with nice people, I think it is easier to keep your perspective and the eye on the ball when it comes to raising your kids. A lot of parents are overwhelmed and let things slide they should be attending to because they are worn out. Being around positive people is like an emotional vacation and rejuvenation, even if it is only a couple of hours a week.

You sound like a church goer to me Penny. Good thought

[onthestrip]

Just take a look at peoples morals today as compared to 30yrs ago when more people as a whole went to church. ( I rest my case )

Are you saying people were more moral 30 years ago? If so, that is just your opinion. Ive never seen a study that shows the morality of this nation 30 years ago compared to today.

[PennyQuilts]

You sound like a church goer to me Penny. Good thought

I went when my kids were little but gave it up. I still remember how much less stressed I frequently was during the weeks I attended. Being around happy people, especially older people with good attitudes just helped. If I had high blood pressure, I think I'd go back just for the medicinal effects.

[sam greenroyd]

Are you saying people were more moral 30 years ago? If so, that is just your opinion. Ive never seen a study that shows the morality of this nation 30 years ago compared to today.

Yes that is my opinion and no I didn't prepare a study for my opinion, if you've seen one post it.

[PennyQuilts]

I think we are a far coarser people than we once were. Of course, that varies from place to place and the norms from place to place differ. One thing I have always noticed in Oklahoma as compared to back east is the level of swearing. They are just ridiculous, here - grown men using gutter language in a sit down restaurant with kids and older people right at the next table. I don't recall - EVER - that happening in Northern Virginia and we ate out, frequently. I am sure there are other places where people use language like that but the area where we lived was not one of them.

[sam greenroyd]

I think we are a far coarser people than we once were. Of course, that varies from place to place and the norms from place to place differ. One thing I have always noticed in Oklahoma as compared to back east is the level of swearing. They are just ridiculous, here - grown men using gutter language in a sit down restaurant with kids and older people right at the next table. I don't recall - EVER - that happening in Northern Virginia and we ate out, frequently. I am sure there are other places where people use language like that but the area where we lived was not one of them.

I've nearly seen fights if bad language was used in front of my family when i was a kid. Thats the kinda stuff i was talkin about years ago,you didn't see it to often back then.

[Caboose]

Yes that is my opinion and no I didn't prepare a study for my opinion, if you've seen one post it.

I rest my case.

[possumfritter]

I think we might be talking more about common courtesy and civility than we are morals and ethics. And people just aren't as polite as they used to be, seems to me.

Then again, maybe politeness is based on good morals and ethics?

[sam greenroyd]

I rest my case.

I'm sorry caboose I guess I missed where you stated your case.

[Caboose]

I'm sorry caboose I guess I missed where you stated your case.

I was just illustrating how weak your case was... that you previously rested... with nothing to back it up with... and then subsequently admitting that it was based solely on personal opinion.

[sam greenroyd]

I was just illustrating how weak your case was... that you previously rested... with nothing to back it up with... and then subsequently admitting that it was based solely on personal opinion.

So in your opinion do you think morals are better or worse? Or are you just looking for a argument? I think most people will agree with my OPINION.

[Caboose]

So in your opinion do you think morals are better or worse? Or are you just looking for a argument? I think most people will agree with my OPINION.

I think that morals are probably not much different now than 30 years ago. Morality is a bit of a gray area to begin with. Morals are just behaviors that are agreed upon as acceptable by society. In a sense, you could say that it is impossible for a society to be immoral, or for morality to get "better or worse" over time within a society. Whatever set of behavior society accepts at any given time is what defines morality.

Regardless, going to church does not make one more moral or ethical nor is any belief system or religion required for one to be moral and ethical. One is not required to believe in ghosts, unicorns, or an invisible man in the sky to conform to social norms. The very idea is preposterous.

It doesn't matter how many people agree with your OPINION. That is not what we use to determine fact.

[sam greenroyd]

I think that morals are probably not much different now than 30 years ago. Morality is a bit of a gray area to begin with. Morals are just behaviors that are agreed upon as acceptable by society. In a sense, you could say that it is impossible for a society to be immoral, or for morality to get "better or worse" over time within a society. Whatever set of behavior society accepts at any given time is what defines morality.

Regardless, going to church does not make one more moral or ethical nor is any belief system or religion required for one to be moral and ethical. One is not required to believe in ghosts, unicorns, or an invisible man in the sky to conform to social norms. The very idea is preposterous.

It doesn't matter how many people agree with your OPINION. That is not what we use to determine fact.

I think church does improve morals so we are going to have to agree to disagree. when you say what we use to determine fact. who is we ? is that okctalk or is that you ?

[onthestrip]

I think church does improve morals so we are going to have to agree to disagree. when you say what we use to determine fact. who is we ? is that okctalk or is that you ?

Im pretty sure by "we" he is referring to everyone. We, or this society, usually dont rely on the opinions of people to gather facts. We usually conduct studies, polls, and analysis to gather facts rather than recording the opinions of the masses.

[sam greenroyd]

Im pretty sure by "we" he is referring to everyone. We, or this society, usually dont rely on the opinions of people to gather facts. We usually conduct studies, polls, and analysis to gather facts rather than recording the opinions of the masses.

Listen I'm not trying to be a smarta-- here or anything but you and caboose were saying I need a study done before I can state my opinions and I've seen a lot of opinions on threads without studys. my reason for asking who we is, was to make a point,did you do a study as to whether eveyone is in agreement with you guys on facts or can we use our opinions. If it's the rules of okc talk not to voice opinion than I'm dead wrong and I appologize to anyone offended.
I do feel its time to move on, i'm sure everyone's ready to hear something else maybe we can talk again on something else later.

[PennyQuilts]

Listen I'm not trying to be a smarta-- here or anything but you and caboose were saying I need a study done before I can state my opinions and I've seen a lot of opinions on threads without studys. my reason for asking who we is, was to make a point,did you do a study as to whether eveyone is in agreement with you guys on facts or can we use our opinions. If it's the rules of okc talk not to voice opinion than I'm dead wrong and I appologize to anyone offended.
I do feel its time to move on, i'm sure everyone's ready to hear something else maybe we can talk again on something else later.

There are some people who are trolls who just waltz in, state an opinioin (generally amounting to a raspberry) and dodge back out without contributing to the discussion. I don't think you are doing that. IMO, for what it is worth, it is fine to give an opinion so long as it contributes to the discussion and isn't just to troll. That is hard to define but not that hard to identify.

I have noticed over the last year that demanding a study or a poll or citation to support a position has become knee jerk to the point of being silly. At some point in time, some people have decided that polls are better than opinions based on life experience, and that only people who have published something (even just on the internet) have opinions that matter.

I think it has to do with a confusion about what constitutes anectdotal vs. statistical evidence. A lot of people try to say that something is a certain way strictly based on their opinion and a smattering of anectdotal experiences and that is one thing. But to have an opinion, particularly one that is based on long-term life experience is another.

I run into this sort of thing on a regular basis in that some people want to discount years of relevant experience amounts to nothing unless there is a study or poll to verify consistent observations. In fact, I even get this regarding things about which I could testify about as an expert if called upon in a court of law.

[Caboose]

you and caboose were saying I need a study done before I can state my opinions

I never said anything of the sort.

[LeethalDose]

I do feel its time to move on, i'm sure everyone's ready to hear something else maybe we can talk again on something else later.

It amazed me to read what to me were very accurate *opinions* about how far down society as a whole and the younger generation especially had descended, very spot on observations that, while reading, i was nodding my head up and down in agreement - only to find out at the end that it was written by an ancient greek philosopher - and echoed by many many others down through the ages.

Don't you think they thought the same of us when we were growing up, Sam? It is kinda that "not in my backyard" kind of syndrome - "while *my* family was moral - it was the *others* that caused the misunderstandings."

Isn't part of growing older *not* understanding the youth and morals of the *modern* society? (I'm not calling you OLD, Sam, just older <grin>)

To bring this perhaps more back to topic - i get to play the antichrist and state that, while not acknowledging the Christian creator God at all, the Buddhist ideal represents, (like those of Christ), the highest morals and ethics possible (just my opinion - no studies proving this cited! and, just FYI - the Buddha *does* teach of an after-life that may be heaven or hell or human! - but no all powerful, in control of it all, creator God.)

So - next question - is there a moral and ethical God that allows all this to sh*t to happen when He has the power to prevent it? NO NO NO - just kidding - please - no flaming!

Let me try to redeem myself - No doubt in my book, more than going to church, more than getting the teachings of Christ preached to ya - PRACTICING THEM (the teachings of Christ) EVERY DAY in EVERY WAY benefits all mankind. I am still working on improving myself that way. Got a long way to go...

[Caboose]

It amazed me to read what to me were very accurate *opinions* about how far down society as a whole and the younger generation especially had descended, very spot on observations that, while reading, i was nodding my head up and down in agreement - only to find out at the end that it was written by an ancient greek philosopher - and echoed by many many others down through the ages.

Don't you think they thought the same of us when we were growing up, Sam? It is kinda that "not in my backyard" kind of syndrome - "while *my* family was moral - it was the *others* that caused the misunderstandings."

Isn't part of growing older *not* understanding the youth and morals of the *modern* society? (I'm not calling you OLD, Sam, just older <grin>)

To bring this perhaps more back to topic - i get to play the antichrist and state that, while not acknowledging the Christian creator God at all, the Buddhist ideal represents, (like those of Christ), the highest morals and ethics possible (just my opinion - no studies proving this cited! and, just FYI - the Buddha *does* teach of an after-life that may be heaven or hell or human! - but no all powerful, in control of it all, creator God.)

So - next question - is there a moral and ethical God that allows all this to sh*t to happen when He has the power to prevent it? NO NO NO - just kidding - please - no flaming!

Let me try to redeem myself - No doubt in my book, more than going to church, more than getting the teachings of Christ preached to ya - PRACTICING THEM (the teachings of Christ) EVERY DAY in EVERY WAY benefits all mankind. I am still working on improving myself that way. Got a long way to go...

Your last sentence illustrates perfectly the problem with Christianity. Thanks to good old Saint Paul, the crux of the religion shifted to believing in and worshiping Jesus, rather then trying to be like Jesus. It is much easier to say you believe (knowing that is all it takes to get into Heaven) and continuing your despicable ways than it is to actually live as Jesus taught people to live.

[LeethalDose]

Your last sentence illustrates perfectly the problem with Christianity. Thanks to good old Saint Paul...

PennyQuilts has taught me to choose my words carefully...

[PennyQuilts]

PennyQuilts has taught me to choose my words carefully...

Probably doesn't matter how well you choose them - they'll be twisted. But at least you can go back and trot them out to clarify if you have the energy.

[LeethalDose]

Probably doesn't matter...

How'd i rate a *probably* - you mean there is hope for me?

[PennyQuilts]

How'd i rate a *probably* - you mean there is hope for me?

Oh darlin' you are not only surrounded by hope, you are a ray of sunshine. And I don't care if you lean right or left.

[Martin]

first... to answer the question that the thread poses. yes, one can be moral and ethical without god. i'd say that morality and ethics are components of culture and can therefore exist independently of any particular religious belief.

thanks to good old saint paul, the crux of the religion shifted to believing in and worshiping Jesus, rather then trying to be like jesus.

granted, there are those that hold to this theological belief and i won't argue the validity of it one way or the other. however, just looking at the words attributed to paul while making as little exegetical interpretation as possible i'd have to say you're wrong on this. but... i'm interested in where you get this notion.

-M

[PennyQuilts]

granted, there are those that hold to this theological belief and i won't argue the validity of it one way or the other. however, just looking at the words attributed to paul while making as little exegetical interpretation as possible i'd have to say you're wrong on this. but... i'm interested in where you get this notion.

I don't recall where I've read this but it is a theory that I have also read.

I've also read that Paul was instrumental in switching Christianity to a more gnostic religion as opposed to following the jewish tradition. I probably haven't said that properly but I hope you know what I mean.