Streetcar

[LordGerald]

Am curious what was meant by this. Mass Trans or should I say Downtown Streetcars are the only component that has reached us in any MAPS. And we have gotten it in two of them. We tried and failed to get them with MAPS in 93 (due to lack of Federal funding, we got the rubber tired Spirit Trolleys instead). Shortly after MAPS for Kids passed, City leadership (Mayor Humphreys & Chamber head Burns Hargis) were discussing streetcars/MAPS 3 back in 2003. Hargis wanted them completed by the Centennial (2007). I don't see that Streetcars ever fell off the agenda and was suddenly put back on again. If anything I think Streetcars have been pushed to the front of the Mass Transit issue possibly at the expensive of the rest of Mass Transit (often cited by the Mayor collectively in the City's 2007 MAPS 3 Survey).

While the Streetcars sound exciting, am extremely disappointed that it will be at least 7.75 years before the rest of the comprehensive plan (and what the Survey respondents said they wanted by an 8 to 1 margin over the next highest suggestion) is even put to the voters. We could have taken care of it all with this MAPS for not that much more. With the time delay of about 8+ years, the cost will be multiplied (could easily be by a factor of 4) by the time we get around to it. Heck, we had an 8 fold increase from the Streetcars in MAPS and now (in just 16 years) and they aren't even going to go out to the Meridian hotel corridor. City Leadership let us down on this one. IMO.

Shhh! Larry! You're citing facts that Jeff can't acknowledge. He wants us local yokels to believe that we didn't have a transit vision until he arrived in our little burg.

[LakeEffect]

Since I am forthwright about who I am on this forum, if you want to duke it out further over a beer, then let's do so. Otherwise, this is not the place.

I think that it is incredibally uncouth for government staff and said representatives to criticize people who have spent thousands of volunteer hours and personal dollars to build support for the very intitiatives they work on in professional life.

And with that, let's leave it for the beer.

If you are so forthright about who you are, why can't you answer questions on here? Why meet with someone outside of this public forum? Is it because you know most people won't take you up on the meeting, and thereby you avoid direct questioning?

Thousands of hours in the past year? Wow... when did you find time to make a living outside this?

Just a question - I have removed my email addresses (my work and my home) from the MTP email list a couple times, and yet I continue to receive communication. Is that a software glitch, or are you accumulating email addresses all the time? Also, where did you receive those email addresses in the first place? I never recall signing up for MTP updates; even if I had, I wouldn't have used my work account...

[Larry OKC]

To clarify, my comment wasn't to attack Urban as I am sure his organization has done a lot in this regard (maybe making sure Streetcars didn't fall of the City's radar)

[Spartan]

I would be interested in scooping more on Burns' role in keeping the streetcar vision alive. I will say that it's obvious that Jeff's group had a huge role in making transit the item that carried that ballot practically. His job was really easy because city leaders were already fond of the idea, they were just concerned about the task of selling it to the voters which would have probably been impossible had Jeff's citizen-led task force not came to the forefront. By making it appear as a citizen-led initiative, it was an easier sell. Had it not been for that I believe city leaders were ready to compromise and leave it off the ballot.

[soonerguru]

I think there's a high likelihood there would have been no street car had it not been for the efforts of MTP. Speaking to some chamber folks and other insiders last spring it was not on the radar. Some people were advocating completely different solutions.

To be fair, I'm sure Urban Pioneer is not personally taking credit for the efforts of many volunteers, but for some reason the implication by some on this thread is that Urban is trying to take credit. That said, I can personally attest to the many hours -- and even some of the money -- that Urban Pioneer invested in MTP and getting OKC the modern street car.

[rondvu]

Interesting old video on the Chevrolet rail bus. It actually makes sense. Minute 3:09.

AutoTraderClassics.com - Video Video - Chevrolet Brings You The News - From 1935!

[betts]

Isn't the idea that everyone works together for the good of the city, and many people have played a part in its improvement? I'm grafeful to everyone who has had vision and given of their personal time to see things accomplished. I don't think we need to worry about whose idea anything was, but rather, appreciate that regardless of who had the idea first, multiple people worked to make it happen.

[Larry OKC]

I think there's a high likelihood there would have been no street car had it not been for the efforts of MTP. Speaking to some chamber folks and other insiders last spring it was not on the radar. Some people were advocating completely different solutions....

Can't speak to the other folks and insiders but it has definitely been on the Mayor Cornett's radar for a while. And specifically mentioned in January of 2009. By his near constant mentioning of it over the years, don't see where Streetcars ever fell off the radar (quite possibly because of the efforts of Urban/MTP). It does seem that the other elements the Mayor often mentioned as part of the comprehensive mass transit plan have fallen off or been pushed back substantially.

Mayor Cornett delivered the eighth State of the City message on January 17, 2007.
City of Oklahoma City | 2007 State of the City

Now, public transportation means different things to different people. There is an inner city aspect of public transportation where you have a core of downtown that is served. There is commuter transportation that might get someone down Northwest Expressway or up Shields. And then there is the growing number of people that choose to live in Edmond or Moore or Norman or Choctaw or any one of the suburban communities. A lot of those people work in Oklahoma City. They need to get to work. There’s certainly a tourism aspect to public transportation, but when you start sorting all of these opportunities into one idea, it becomes massive, it becomes complex, and it certainly becomes expensive. Over the past two years, we have completed an exhaustive, futuristic look at transportation in our community.
Now, the plan includes four distinct methods of public transportation: Bus Rapid Transit, Commuter Rail, Downtown Streetcar, and Enhanced Bus Service.

Means it had been on their radar at least as far back as early 2005

2008 State of the City address was a bit of a departure (its emphasis was MAPS for Kids/The City is going on a Diet/Unveiling of Core to Shore and the Ford Tax) but Transit was still mentioned in passing (still inclusive sounding)
City of Oklahoma City | 2008 State of the City

It will take time, but the future of Oklahoma City does not have to so dependent on the automobile. We have choices, and we will be working to improve public transportation in this city in the coming years through implementation of the Fixed Guideway Study.

Mayor Cornett delivered the tenth State of the City message on January 15, 2009.
City of Oklahoma City | 2008 State of the City

I urge each of you to check out the Fixed Guideway Study that provides our blueprint for a 21st Century transit system. It can be found at on the Internet at OKFGS.org.

Fully implemented, it calls for a greatly enhanced bus system, including Bus Rapid Transit, and there are also light rail and downtown streetcar components. This blueprint is complete. You may recall we spent a year and a half on the study.
...
You may recall, two years ago in this address, we put out the call for entries. Over the next four months, we received over 2,700 ideas, 668 of which focused on transit. Each of your ideas probably has merit. But let’s just not forget the priorities: transit, the Core to Shore park, and the convention center. These ideas are fully-formed, they will continue our renaissance at the same pace we have grown accustomed to, and their time has come.

Even here, it is still the apparently inclusive "transit", he didn't mention just one component. That didn't come until the formal unveiling of the proposed MAPS 3 projects. Have to keep in mind, we were supposed to have voted on MAPS 3 a year before we did but due to the Ford tax, that pushed everything back about a year.

The City's MAPS 3 Survey results (the Mayor frequently cites as the basis for pursuing MAPS 3), showed that overwhelmingly, mass transit "'includes light rail, downtown streetcars etc.") was suggested by a 3.5 to 1 margin over any other idea (this is a correction, I had been saying 8 to 1 in recent post...memory failed, I should have looked it up).

Would love to know what the breakdown was since it does "mean different things to different people" and the City lumped it all together in the MAPS 3 Survey results. Seems if you are going to lump them all together in the Survey (and use that survey for justification), it would be critical to include the forms mentioned within MAPS 3. That is what I was expecting. But they didn't. We are only getting one component.

[metro]

I would be interested in scooping more on Burns' role in keeping the streetcar vision alive. I will say that it's obvious that Jeff's group had a huge role in making transit the item that carried that ballot practically. His job was really easy because city leaders were already fond of the idea, they were just concerned about the task of selling it to the voters which would have probably been impossible had Jeff's citizen-led task force not came to the forefront. By making it appear as a citizen-led initiative, it was an easier sell. Had it not been for that I believe city leaders were ready to compromise and leave it off the ballot.

Absolutely. The efforts of others, and largely MTP are what kept mass transit on the ballot. I personally talked to Mick beforehand in his office and while he was supportive of the idea, it wasn't on his top priority list. Heck, Mick even had this speech he'd use to give (probably won't hear him mention it again now) about how he and his brother or someone (can't remember who exactly) but they concluded that gas would have to reach about $20 a gallon before they'd consider mass transit and think it'd be viable in this city. I can almost guarantee you that you won't hear this story coming out of his lips anytime soon. I was fortunate enough to see enough of the behind the scenes work and MTP was definitely the push over the edge with the Mayor to get it on the ballot. Urban Pioneer has spent lots of his own time and money making it become a reality, which is more than I can say for any of the naysayers. I'm glad I was able to play just a small part in all of it and proud of Jeff's leadership on the MTP.

I think there's a high likelihood there would have been no street car had it not been for the efforts of MTP. Speaking to some chamber folks and other insiders last spring it was not on the radar. Some people were advocating completely different solutions.

To be fair, I'm sure Urban Pioneer is not personally taking credit for the efforts of many volunteers, but for some reason the implication by some on this thread is that Urban is trying to take credit. That said, I can personally attest to the many hours -- and even some of the money -- that Urban Pioneer invested in MTP and getting OKC the modern street car.

Exactly, I too had talked to Mick, Chamber and others and mass transit was just not on the radar, Convention Center was their sole agenda. I've since been convinced that we actually do need a real convention center. I also agree that MTP/Jeff are also not personally taking sole credit or asking for the bulk of credit for mass transit. End of the day, they are hard working citizens looking to better OKC, praise or not.

Isn't the idea that everyone works together for the good of the city, and many people have played a part in its improvement? I'm grafeful to everyone who has had vision and given of their personal time to see things accomplished. I don't think we need to worry about whose idea anything was, but rather, appreciate that regardless of who had the idea first, multiple people worked to make it happen.

Well said.

[Popsy]

From what I read Urban did take responsibility for being the sole reason that Maps 3 passed, although I am positive he would have rather had someone else do it instead of being forced to heap praise on himself. I would not extend credit to him for being the reason Maps 3 passed, but I would give him and his committee credit for the street cars being there. My intuition tells me that Urban orchestrated a drive within his committee to stuff the ballot box, so to speak, by generating all of the six hundred plus emails that were sent to the most ineffective survey ever devised. They actually made it appear that a huge number of interested citizens wanted street cars in Maps 3 and Cornett had no choice but to include this option. Did OKC do a real survey of downtown workers, workers at the Health Sciences Center or the Capitol complex to determine the possible ridership of the trolley or the possibility that downtown workers would ride the fixed rail from Norman, Edmond or Midwest City. Can someone tell us even how many downtown workers live in those cities? One hundred thirty million dollars is a lot of money to spend on a project that would have been shot down in flames by the populace if we were allowed to vote by line item. At least it will probably have one positive effect because once the panhandlers realize they can have a captive audience on those cars they will disappear from our busy intersections. Maybe that is worth the one hundred thirty million dollars.

[Urban Pioneer]

Thank you to those who have left kind comments. I absolutely do not take personal credit for the streetcar. Let that not be misconstrued. Popsy is absolutely right about the volunteers. The thread went south when one of our volunteers was criticized, Walter Jacques. I will not stand for volunteer criticism, especially by government employees and representatives. If ACOG staff have a personal problem with me, then they need to confront me face-to-face. Not on a public forum.

[Architect2010]

My intuition tells me that Urban orchestrated a drive within his committee to stuff the ballot box, so to speak, by generating all of the six hundred plus emails that were sent to the most ineffective survey ever devised. They actually made it appear that a huge number of interested citizens wanted street cars in Maps 3 and Cornett had no choice but to include this option.

Hmm. I was one of those 600+ emails that favored mass transit and I was not swayed by MTP or Urban Pioneer.

-1 for your intuition.

[Popsy]

No. -1 for your reading comprehension. I did not state they sent all of them. I am also sure there are others like yourself that thought street cars would be neat. My intuition wants it's one back.

[Urbanized]

What an intriguingly contentious turn THIS thread has taken...

[possumfritter]

There was a great half hour show on Urbanization and Population on OETA yesterday morning. Watch for the repeat this week.

[Kerry]

I thought a survey of all registered voters was taken and MAPSIII passed. Did people not know a downtown streetcar was included, and was in fact one of the main items. Or did people think it was better to spend $400 million on streetcars and convention centers (if that is what took) so they could get a few million dollars worth of sidewalks?

That would be like buying a $28,000 car just to get the 8 stereo speakers it came with.

[Popsy]

What an intriguingly contentious turn THIS thread has taken...

I actually did not post to start an argument. I just wanted to express my opinion. If we were supposed to stay in lock step in this thread I will request it be deleted or hopefully everyone will just ignore it.

[Urban Pioneer]

What an intriguingly contentious turn THIS thread has taken...

Intriguing to say the least. This week I am going to work on a synopsis of where all this came from, who supported it, and how it got to a vote.

Something of a "debriefing" I think is in order. There are people who think that MTP solely exists of me. At this point, there are a good number of people involved and it is obvious that people have "bits and pieces" of the complete story.

It would be a disservice to the many volunteers and leaders that emerged if it wasn't "summed up" properly.

On another note, I went to the first public meeting at City Hall today for the streetcar public input process. It was very well attended and there were very strong intellectual questions asked. It is exciting and gratifying to see it actually taking place.

[Architect2010]

No. -1 for your reading comprehension. I did not state they sent all of them. I am also sure there are others like yourself that thought street cars would be neat. My intuition wants it's one back.

My comprehension stays where it was. ;] I understand wholefully what you said, but maybe you should realize that there are more than just a few people who think streetcars are more than just neat. Including numerous people on this board. I dunno what makes you assume that I think they're "neat", or whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, but that's where your intuition is obviously lacking. Your assumptions are pure biased opinions. How can you be so sure of what I think, or any of those 600+ anonymous people think for that matter, of a subject when we have never fully relished our thoughts on that respective topic? I didn't think so.

-20 for being an all-knowing smartass. We can do with less of those.

[Urban Pioneer]

I just went to the second public meeting. It was well attended. I believe that Doug Dawg is the guest blogger about the meeting on Home | A Community Discussion on Oklahoma City's Modern Streetcar and Alternatives Analysis, Central Oklaho

[jbrown84]

I think that it is incredibally uncouth for government staff and said representatives to criticize people who have spent thousands of volunteer hours and personal dollars to build support for the very intitiatives they work on in professional life.

[Popsy]

My comprehension stays where it was. ;] I understand wholefully what you said, but maybe you should realize that there are more than just a few people who think streetcars are more than just neat. Including numerous people on this board. I dunno what makes you assume that I think they're "neat", or whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, but that's where your intuition is obviously lacking. Your assumptions are pure biased opinions. How can you be so sure of what I think, or any of those 600+ anonymous people think for that matter, of a subject when we have never fully relished our thoughts on that respective topic? I didn't think so.

-20 for being an all-knowing smartass. We can do with less of those.

Sorry Sparky, but your post made me laugh, so feel free to deduct the remaining 79 points you left me to work with. I am very aware of the popularity of the street cars in this forum and that my opinion is in the extreme minority. Yes my opinion is biased as most opinions are, but I did not ask anyone to share my opinion. In order to restore civility to this thread I promise not to post anything about street cars in the future. Here's to hoping for nothing but success for the OKC steet car system.

[Larry OKC]

I thought a survey of all registered voters was taken and MAPSIII passed. Did people not know a downtown streetcar was included, and was in fact one of the main items. Or did people think it was better to spend $400 million on streetcars and convention centers (if that is what took) so they could get a few million dollars worth of sidewalks?

That would be like buying a $28,000 car just to get the 8 stereo speakers it came with.

LOL And there are those out there that would do that.

The mixture of all-or-nothing unrelated projects was intentional. I want side walks, trails and senior aquatic centers, to get those I have to vote for the convention center and streetcars. If I vote no to the streetcars and convention center I don't get what I want either.

It was a close vote and the unpopular item (the convention center never did get an acceptable polling) almost pulled down the whole thing. This is one of the dangers of all-or-nothing type ballots (besides the illegality of it), is you risk not getting anything at all.

[Larry OKC]

...the most ineffective survey ever devised. They actually made it appear that a huge number of interested citizens wanted street cars in Maps 3 and Cornett had no choice but to include this option. ...

To be fair (as I have pointed out before) we don't know how many of the 600+ survey respondents wanted Downtown Streetcars specifically because the City lumped all of Mass Transit together ("public transportation means different things to different people" -- Mayor Cornett).

It very well may have been the highest or it may have been the lowest. We don't know.

I will agree they had little option to include at least some form of Mass Transit, am just disappointed that it didn't end up being the comprehensive plan the Mayor often spoke of (see previous posts).

[Urban Pioneer]

To be fair (as I have pointed out before) we don't know how many of the 600+ survey respondents wanted Downtown Streetcars specifically because the City lumped all of Mass Transit together ("public transportation means different things to different people" -- Mayor Cornett).

It very well may have been the highest or it may have been the lowest. We don't know.

I will agree they had little option to include at least some form of Mass Transit, am just disappointed that it didn't end up being the comprehensive plan the Mayor often spoke of (see previous posts).

Larry, the reason most transit leaders (including MTP) gravitated towards streetcars ($120 Million) and some commuter rail money ($10 Million) is because MAPS does not provide permanent operating revenue sources. It just builds infrastructure.

You will find no bigger supporters for implementing the full Edmond to Norman, Midwest City to Yukon System than the MTP volunteers, the Mayor, and the majority of council members.

However, at the end of the day we had to justify which transit components in the grand master plan could sustain themselves. The Modern Streetcar is the most expensive component to build in the entire system comparatively. However, it has the lowest operating cost and the least long term maintenance demands.

We recommended phasing out the "rubber tired trolleys" as they are nearing the end of their life anyways, and taking the funds spent on fuel and maintenance and directing it towards streetcar operation. That saves around $300,000 if you continue to operate the rubber tired trolleys out to the Stockyards and River.

City Manager Jim Couch was kind enough to agree funding the shortfall out of city General Funds. It is possible that a great deal of this can be made up through advertising on the shining new system on stop shelters and on board. But tentatively, at least $1,700 - $2,200 is anticipated to come out of the General Funds. Far less than an other transit devices prescribed in the FGS.

Also, keep in mind that most local circulator systems such as Modern Streetcar are built after commuter lines are installed..... think about people who arrive on Amtrak with no way to get around to their hotel or transfer to the bus station without a long walk, taxi, or someone picking them up. This is especially hard with luggage. I have done it myself.

Just imagine that scenario compounded by commuters of the future system you described. With the Modern Streetcar and starter hub funds, we tentatively are in the process of financing the nucleus of the greater system that most desire.

The Modern Streetcar will become even more successful as the tangents of this system come "online" in the future.

Regarding support, the (scientific) poll numbers for the streetcar always consistently polled high with sidewalks and trails. Downtown streetcar and "commuter rail start" was the exact uniform language used in polling before, during, and exit analysis.

I will also tell you that there were a great many civic leaders who thought that the transit component specifically might doom the MAPS proposal in its entirety.

Via this successful vote, many of the fears have be allayed and you will see a very successful transit future in this city. Negating leadership concerns on whether we could actually pass something like this is probably almost as significant to the transit future as actually building this streetcar and hub start. And it will almost certainly improve our Federal Funding rankings by which most regional transit systems are financed.