Streetcar

[dmoor82]

^^^gasoline or battery? rcjunkie some of those rc cars are flat out FAST!

[Watson410]

Radio Controlled. My son and I are huge Nitro RC Fans. He's 15 and has raced rc cars for almost 5 years, during the spring and summer we travel all over the US racing.

I raced R/C cars for a few years! I use to race at Competition R/C (When it was GOOD), Action R/C, and The Red Barn between NE 23rd and NE 36th off I-35 (The name slips my mind). They're a BLAST!! yet expensive!

[Urban Pioneer]

Urban, will the ridership numbers be impacted by the route selected?

Most definitely. It is a fine balance between obtaining good ridership numbers and using the streetcar to create density.

Usually there is an "anchor" at each end of the line. In our case the hub or convention area might be an anchor.

What is the most important route to build? What should be the priority anchor at the other end? These are the first questions we should start to focus on.

[Kerry]

Most definitely. It is a fine balance between obtaining good ridership numbers and using the streetcar to create density.

Usually there is an "anchor" at each end of the line. In our case the hub or convention area might be an anchor.

What is the most important route to build? What should be the priority anchor at the other end? These are the first questions we should start to focus on.

The State Capitol Complex needs to be one anchor. If the city is going need state funds at some point we need to get them as early users. Plus, they are a major employment center.

[OKC@heart]

I agree and a natural other extension would be to tie into the Health Science Center. It would be fantastic if students and professionals alike had the option of hopping on a street car and zipping into bricktown for a lunch meeting, and then back. It is the interconnectivity of these areas where people work and want to be that will drive up ridership and allow folks to really effectively utilize the public transportation system that we are trying to build.

With our initial 5-6 miles it will be very difficult to expect much in the way of ridership, but if it is viewed as instead a vital first leg of a much more comprehensive plan it will be easier for everyday citizens to get behind it. I just worry about promoted expectations and that once the first route is laid that everyone will watch with baited breath to see if it is a success or a failure based on the short length alone, and independent and that it can be used as an opportunity to say...see I told you it was a waste of money. We just need to educate citizens that it is a necessary component of a larger system that will and can be evaluated once it is more substantially complete and accessible by its riders.

I cannot wait to see the first tracks going in, what a tremendous time for our city!

[betts]

I definitely suggested the health sciences center as one of the anchors on the survey. There are a lot of people on campus there, and there are also people who families who are hospitalized staying in the area who could take advantage of the line. I realize we will be limited on length of the system, but that and the capital are certainly very important areas that need to be considered for first expansion if they cannot be included in the initial routes.

I think we might be surprised at the ridership we get on the streetcar as our convention center is completed and people learn the routes and system. There are a lot of people downtown at any given time, and that's only going to increase.

[possumfritter]

I think we might be surprised at the ridership we get on the streetcar as our convention center is completed and people learn the routes and system. There are a lot of people downtown at any given time, and that's only going to increase.

And we would have even more local citizenry downtown if we had wider Bus services. IMHO.

[betts]

I actually think that locally the attitude towards the bus system is so negative, if people think of it at all, that we need to work backwards. We need to get people riding things like the streetcar, which has a more urban and "cool" feel, and from that get them to be more accepting of bus service. I think you could put an amazing grid of buses in this city and would not see ridership increase significantly, because people don't see themselves riding a bus and have no interest in riding a bus. The only way that would change would be if we had significantly higher gas prices and people simply couldn't afford or didn't want to spend the money to drive AND we had an increased number of buses and routes.

[possumfritter]

betts,

I think you might just be right...it's "cool." I grew up riding buses in San Francisco and San Diego back in the 1950s and 1960's. I used to take Greyhound all the time until I took a trip out of the OKC terminal. I fly now.

I swear though, I am gonna keep on trying to get someone in the city to alter "Rt 8" a bit so I can get downtown more often.

Councilman Patrick Ryan...are ya hearing me yet?

[betts]

I'm a big bus rider myself, from my days of living in Denver before they had any other form of transportation. My daughters rarely drive their cars in Chicago and almost always take the bus, which we also do when I'm visiting. It's not that I don't think expanded bus service is a good thing, but rather that the attitude here is such that we're going to have to change it before we'll get signficant ridership from people who own cars. And I think other forms of transit like streetcars and light rail will help change that attitude, which is why I have no problem with the streetcar coming before bus route expansion.

[possumfritter]

Well, I do love the old streetcars (San Francisco) and I think the light rail is a good idea (San Diego), but I think I am going to show up at the afternoon Public Input Meetings with my sign..."Need Mo Buses." And with that...

[Platemaker]

It's less about more buses than it is about have buses run later in the evening.

[metro]

Home | A Community Discussion on Oklahoma City's Modern Streetcar and Alternatives Analysis, Central Oklaho

[possumfritter]

It's less about more buses than it is about have buses run later in the evening.

It would be nice if buses could run all night, 24-7. But with the crime being what it is, plus, as it has been pointed out earlier...if folks aren't gonna support it. Maybe if we had about 3,000,000 folks living here.

[Platemaker]

From my favorite blog:

Oklahoma City Readies Modern Streetcar as Centerpiece of Major Redevelopment Plan The Transport Politic

[corpsman]

Betts and Possumfritter I agree with both of you. We do need a better bus system, but we need to find a way to cool down the love affair we have with the automobile. Way back in the day there was the Interurban. It went from Norman to Guthrie as far west El Reno, and I don't know how far east... way before my time don't you know. In my time here, there hasn't been any bus service near what there has been in Denver or Chicago or San Diego for that matter when I was stationed there in the late 60"s but one could navigate reasonably well by bus here. But urban renewal took retailing out of down town and gasoline was cheap. There was no incentive to go downtown except to work. Gasoline still is cheap when compared to most of the rest of the world. I was on a U.S. Navy float trip in the Mediterranean in 1971 and gasoline in Greece and Italy was purchased by the liter. The price was the equivalent of $1.00 per liter! A person could go from Piraeus, the Athens port to within walking distance of the Acropolis for about a dime riding the bus. I came back to the States and gasoline was 25-35 cents a gallon. Oklahoma City reminds me a lot of Los Angeles in how it is so spread out and there is no good way to get from here to there in OKC without a car. Now we are talking about a light rail system and street cars and a better bus system. Have we come full circle?

[jbrown84]

Well, if the City will run the Streetcar out here to NW122nd and Council, then we won't need more buses. But, in the meantime I am going to press for a few more buses or modifications of some of the routes.

No offense, but if you want to use public transportation, you might thinking about moving in closer. That's almost a different county.

I actually think that locally the attitude towards the bus system is so negative, if people think of it at all, that we need to work backwards. We need to get people riding things like the streetcar, which has a more urban and "cool" feel, and from that get them to be more accepting of bus service. I think you could put an amazing grid of buses in this city and would not see ridership increase significantly, because people don't see themselves riding a bus and have no interest in riding a bus. The only way that would change would be if we had significantly higher gas prices and people simply couldn't afford or didn't want to spend the money to drive AND we had an increased number of buses and routes.

Even if I go to a place like Chicago, I see the buses as a backup for when the EL or Subway can't get me where I'm going, so I think as people warm to public trans on the streetcar, they would start using the bus to make connections.

[rcjunkie]

And we would have even more local citizenry downtown if we had wider Bus services. IMHO.

The only areas not served by COTPA / buses is the rural areas of OKC which is not financially feasible and will never happen, all other areas have access to bus service with easy access to downtown. (available but not used)

[rcjunkie]

It's less about more buses than it is about have buses run later in the evening.

It's about having the citizens use the adequate number of buses the City already has.

[Platemaker]

Nope... you don't even have the option of working 8-5 and then going to the grocery store.

[soonerguru]

It's about having the citizens use the adequate number of buses the City already has.

Lemme guess? You're a retired city employee?

This is precisely what's wrong with the "bus system" in Oklahoma City.

Design a system to fail, with schedules that don't work for people, with routes that are inadequate, and then sneer that not enough people ride them. Brilliant strategy.

[Kerry]

The problem is OKC is too spread out and not dense enough. If it was me all bus service would be concentrated in an area within a few miles of downtown. If you want to live out on NW Expressway - great, but you are going to need a car. If you want to have access to mass transit you have to live with 5 miles of downtown. OKC needs to create a pedestrian city within an automobile city. There just isn't enough money or users to spread resources thinly all across the city. We should provide really good service in a select area and limited service elsewhere. If people want it, they need to move to where it is available.

[possumfritter]

The only areas not served by COTPA / buses is the rural areas of OKC

I don't know when the COTPA was last updated, but has anyone taken into consideration that some of the "rural areas" have become metropolized. There has been alot of development in the past decade just in northwest NWOKC.

And soonerguru hit a homerun with, "...with schedules that don't work for people, with routes that are inadequate..."

I am pretty sure that tweaking Rt. 8 would result in increased "ridership." But, we won't know that unless Metro Transit modifies the current route. And I know that they do this because Rt 8, at one time, ended at the Rockwell Plaza Shopping Center before they elimnated that stop. So, the routes can be modified.

[goldbug]

From my favorite blog:

Oklahoma City Readies Modern Streetcar as Centerpiece of Major Redevelopment Plan The Transport Politic

This blog post is written in a very engaging tone, and I hope it will help to get more people excited about the streetcar, as well as transit in general. However, there are several inaccuracies that I immediately noticed, and perhaps more that I'm not seeing.

*The Association of Central Oklahoma Governments is conducting an Intermodal Hub Study, to determine location/layout of an intermodal hub. The determination of the streetcar route will not be part of this study.

*This Hub study will not be "the first serious plan for transit improvements in this city in forty years." We've got the 2005 Fixed Guideway Study (of which the downtown streetcar is but one element), and additionally, COTPA has a long range plan for expanding bus service. It all boils down to getting the money to fund planned improvements. The MAPS money for the downtown streetcar is finally letting us start implementing planned projects.

*The Modern Transit Project hasn't been around for several years. (Though I do applaud Jeff and the other members for their hard work and continued support of the streetcar!)

*MAPS3 is not truly a regional sales tax. It is in Oklahoma City only.

*Of the $130 million dedicated to transit in MAPS3, $120 million will go toward the streetcar, not $100 million as the post states.

*The new I-40 alignment does not remove rail line capacity, only rail yard space.

*The Association of Central Oklahoma Governments is not at work on a light rail plan. Through the Regional Transit Dialogue, they are looking at the next steps for implementing the Fixed Guideway Study, which includes proposed commuter rail and bus rapid transit elements. While light rail could certainly be a part of our city's public transportation in the future, it is not part of any current or developing plans. (I believe the OP of the blog post got this misinformation from a recent NewsOK article.)

[rcjunkie]

Lemme guess? You're a retired city employee?

This is precisely what's wrong with the "bus system" in Oklahoma City.

Design a system to fail, with schedules that don't work for people, with routes that are inadequate, and then sneer that not enough people ride them. Brilliant strategy.

Answer to question #1: Retired from OKC Parks Department in 2006. (may I ask how this affects/shapes my opinion)

Answer to question #2: Take a neighborhood in the far NW corner of the City, say theres 1500 working adults, probably 75--80% work in different areas of the City, would be impossible to provide bus service to fit everyones work schedules/needs.