Streetcar

[Larry OKC]

Larry - I think the $95 million line of credit in your first quote is the same as the bolded loan in your second quote. One is talking about Devon specifically and the other is talking about TIF districts in general.

For example.

I took out a loan to buy my house. Most people who buy a home take out a loan.

See, just one loan.

Maybe you are right but that isn't the way I am reading it (maybe Steve can clarify since it was his article).

[okclee]

What did ULI have to say about the future downtown Okc streetcars?

[fuzzytoad]

What did ULI have to say about the future downtown Okc streetcars?

"There is a vast industry that will tell you build a streetcar and the buildings will follow it. It's more complicated...it's less clear if streetcars really spur development." - Ross Tilghman

[Larry OKC]

"There is a vast industry that will tell you build a streetcar and the buildings will follow it. It's more complicated...it's less clear if streetcars really spur development." - Ross Tilghman

The rest of the quote is...

"It is one of many factors that can spur development." (emphasis in presentation slide)

[fuzzytoad]

The rest of the quote is...

"It is one of many factors that can spur development." (emphasis in presentation slide)

ah, must have missed that.

so, when does streetcar construction start?

[Larry OKC]

ah, must have missed that.

so, when does streetcar construction start?

According to City staff not for at least 10 years (no mention of timing in the ULI presentation)

[Urban Pioneer]

I would like to respond directly to this "10 year thing."

The streetcar committee has not met yet, will meet soon, and will recommend routes and schedules to the MAPS Oversight Board who will confer with mayor/council and assign schedules.

Two city staff member opinions do not constitute an official schedule.

While I can appreciate a favored downtown reporter capturing two engineers with their PR guards down, it is unfair to "crystallize" and give credence to a sensationalist story before the process begins and subsequently "speaks its mind."

There will plenty of new and substantive news coming out about transit/streetcars.

[Urban Pioneer]

"There is a vast industry that will tell you build a streetcar and the buildings will follow it. It's more complicated...it's less clear if streetcars really spur development." - Ross Tilghman

I met with Ross officially and he had many great insights. But, I find the "vast industry" comment a bit inflated. There are only three modern streetcar system in the United States- Tacoma, Portland, Seattle.

The private re-development return along streetcar alignments has been a minimum of $10 for every $1 of public money spent. It is that track record specific to (modern streetcars) which has propagated the theory that anywhere you put the track density and development will follow.

The real question for Oklahoma City is where should specific TOD's be considered in this project?

Ross believes and subsequently stated during the ULI presentation that he thinks we should only pursue one TOD centric project in the streetcar plan. If you follow his line of thinking, who gets the TOD?

[LordGerald]

I would like to respond directly to this "10 year thing."

The streetcar committee has not met yet, will meet soon, and will recommend routes and schedules to the MAPS Oversight Board who will confer with mayor/council and assign schedules.

Two city staff member opinions do not constitute an official schedule.

While I can appreciate a favored downtown reporter capturing two engineers with their PR guards down, it is unfair to "crystallize" and give credence to a sensationalist story before the process begins and subsequently "speaks its mind."

There will plenty of new and substantive news coming out about transit/streetcars.

Hey Steve, looks like someone called you out. Game on!

[Urban Pioneer]

No... No "game on." I respect Steve's position and I hope he respects me.

He is a journalist and has played a very engaged role in the MAPS and downtown projects discussion. However, I do think that an article headlining the premise that "streets are going to be torn up twice and confusion is reigning" is a bit more appropriate after the Oversight Board and Council rule that type of decision.

His recent comments on his blog propagate this unfounded premise on the authoritative level. I say, let the oversight boards and processes take place, assign schedules, then critique.

[Larry OKC]

Urban: what is TOD? Thanks!

[Urban Pioneer]

Transit Oriented Development is TOD.

There is a new term that is emerging which is Development Oriented Transit.

The first is more along the lines of the incredible boon of energy that you see at the bottom of a highway exit ramp.

The second is building the "highway" in the first place out to a specific undeveloped area.

Highway being rails- lol

[Urban Pioneer]

So, with that premise, do you believe the streetcar as many do will be one giant DOT or do you think there should be specific TOD's?

I can think of some very large Urban Renewal properties still remaining in Midtown and by Film Row.

[fuzzytoad]

So, with that premise, do you believe the streetcar as many do will be one giant DOT or do you think there should be specific TOD's?

I can think of some very large Urban Renewal properties still remaining in Midtown and by Film Row.

How was it defined in MAPS3? That's what everyone voted for.

[Urban Pioneer]

It wasn't/shouldn't be defined. Development as the result of Modern Streetcars is simply a great "by product."

I am sure that during the streetcar campaign we "touted" the economic/jobs reaction to streetcar construction, but voters basically voted on that issue recognizing that it is the start of the Regional Transit System and implementation of the Fixed Guideway Study.

[Kerry]

nm

[Urbanized]

...There is a new term that is emerging which is Development Oriented Transit.

The first is more along the lines of the incredible boon of energy that you see at the bottom of a highway exit ramp.

The second is building the "highway" in the first place out to a specific undeveloped area...

Funny, everything old is new again. In the early 20th centrury, Anton Classen and John Shartel built the OKC streetcar system to spur development in OKC's original suburbs, now some of Oklahoma City's most successful and beautiful inner-city neighborhoods. Developers like Classen and Shartel did the same thing all over the country. The original development-oriented transit.

[Laramie]

This route is right at 6 miles, follows very closely to the Fixed Guideway Study, but includes Broadway and less 'jogs'. I think it would be a very easy to learn system.

Downtown... you'd be within 1.5 blocks of the streetcar no matter where you were.

This will be a great start and it does enhance the City's image; however, it does little for mass transit. Oklahoma City is spread out and not as densely populated as most cities.

As they expand beyond 6 miles, I'm sure places of interests (Zoo area, Western Heritage Museum, Stockyards) will be our priority!

[Urban Pioneer]

Well, the funny thing about our project is that the streetcar will become ever more successful as commuter routes are added.

Usually other cities have added a local "circulator" or streetcar as the result of people being dumped out at the "end point." Almost like today Amtrak passengers disembark at Santa Fe and better be prepared to walk, have a friend pick them up, or catch a cab.

Amazingly, we are taking the reverse approach and planning ahead. We are building the "nucleus" of the Regional System and adding the commuter routes to Edmond, Norman, Mid/Del, and Yukon later.

So, expect incredible usage by those already downtown to get to places just outside of walking distances, to only increase as future commuters are "dumped" into the streetcar system.

It is a plan set up for long term success and will fundamentally change how people in this city view public transit for the positive.

[Kerry]

Usually other cities have added a local "circulator" or streetcar as the result of people being dumped out at the "end point." Almost like today Amtrak passengers disembark at Santa Fe and better be prepared to walk, have a friend pick them up, or catch a cab.

Amazingly, we are taking the reverse approach and planning ahead. We are building the "nucleus" of the Regional System and adding the commuter routes to Edmond, Norman, Mid/Del, and Yukon later.

So, expect incredible usage by those already downtown to get to places just outside of walking distances, to only increase as future commuters are "dumped" into the streetcar system.

It is a plan set up for long term success and will fundamentally change how people in this city view public transit for the positive.

Ironically, the people supporting regional high speed rail are using the exact opposite logic. They want to connect cities that people can't get around in once they get there.

[Urban Pioneer]

Isn't it somewhat bizarre Kerry? You would think as much as high-speed rail costs it would be easy to slip in a few hundred million to install local circulators/streetcar systems to make it truly work.

I often wonder what is exactly going on in Tulsa. They talked about a streetcar at great length in their latest public planning, Planit Tulsa.

If Tulsa put in a streetcar system we could marry the two downtowns together with Amtrak or commuter rail.

Imagine going to Cains Ballroom, spending a night at the Mayo, eating dinner at Lola's or seeing and event at the BOK Center and never have to worry/deal with a car and they could come see us.

If the speed of service between was efficient enough, it would salve a great many wounds with greater shared economic activity and cultural enjoyment/appreciation.

The impact of well designed rail service is greatly underestimated, and the "pie in the sky" thinking of multi-billion dollar systems is over rated by enthusiasts.

[betts]

Who would go to Tulsa on high speed rail since Tulsa has no transit system? I wouldn't because I would have no way to get around once I got there. I rarely go to cities without mass transit by anything but car for that very reason.

[Larry OKC]

Who would go to Tulsa on high speed rail since Tulsa has no transit system? I wouldn't because I would have no way to get around once I got there. I rarely go to cities without mass transit by anything but car for that very reason.

Presume you mean they don't have a rail transit system as they seem to have a rather extensive bus system (my company prints their bus schedule, usually in the 64-128 pg range). You would get around the same way you get around anywhere else. Walk. Taxi. Bus. Rental etc. If you limit yourself to those places that only have rail connections, you are also limiting yourself to the things you can do (does rail come to where you are and go to where you want to be).

OKC doesn't have a rail transit system either (yet). How do you get around here?

[betts]

My preference, Larry. I just don't tend to go to cities without great mass transit unless I drive there, because I don't like renting cars to travel around cities. Tulsa may have a great bus system, but it's close enough that I'm probably going to drive, and not have to hassle with their transit system, unless the train station has bus service that comes directly there and it's easy to get where I want to go. I rarely go to Tulsa, regardless, and when I have, their bus system hasn't been obvious to me.

My husband grew up in NYC, and he's not big on taxis. He was riding the subway at 8 years old, with friends and sans parents, and he considers it a sign of weakness to have to take a cab to get around cities with decent mass transit.

[Urban Pioneer]

PUBLIC INPUT ON STREETCAR TO MOVE FORWARD

Friends, I am proud to say that the official public input process on a preffered streetcar route is about to move forward. MTP Volunteers and MAPS Campaigners worked hard to make the funding for such an ambitious transit project a reality.

The outreach and MAPS 3 campaigning is about to transition to a substantive design process very quickly that will directly ask for your opinions.

As the steering committee is assigned, it is the intention of those involved to assign a expedited preffered route in the Project 180 area and a longer term system plan for multi-decade expansions of our planned World Class streetcar system.

As more information regarding meeting dates and times avails itself, I will immediately post the information.

It is the intention of the streetcar steering committee to begin holding public meetings as early as the end of this month.

The committee looks forward to your online and physical participation in the dialogue. It is an exciting time for Oklahoma City.