Urban Land Institute Sends Advisors / MAPS Oversight Board Moves Forward

[Mikemarsh51]

Andy, I'm glad you noticed mugofstuff was blowing smoke both ways too!

Betts, I appreciate your comments. They do seem reasonable. Maps1 all the projects were listed and done as listed. Maps3 they werent, I think to cover the CC that polled at something like %30 approval. I just dont like what I see as a shiftyness to get someones agenda done. That's it, I dont like that aspect of the program, I just dont like it. IMO, thats all it is, so get over yourself mug!

[progressiveboy]

MikeMarsh was a rabid anti-MAPS3 poster who simply can't accept that his side lost. His previous posts on other threads show he will tell half-truths and pull conclusions out of a hat to try to make his points.

He has no real concern for those "poor rightful owners" of land in the C2S area who have left boarded up shacks, junk car lots, bars, vacant houses and blighted junk real estate thats worthless for all current uses. He just wants to gripe about, and cast insinuations about those who choose to look forward and understand the concept of "investment."

Agree!!

[OSUFan]

Did I miss something? You guys are acting like the Mayor and/or council has decided to move the convention center first. All I've heard is the is that is what the ULI recomended. Please let me know if I missed anything. I haven't even heard the Mayor comment on it.

[OKC@heart]

Did I miss something? You guys are acting like the Mayor and/or council has decided to move the convention center first. All I've heard is the is that is what the ULI recomended. Please let me know if I missed anything. I haven't even heard the Mayor comment on it.

Nope you haven't missed anything and you are right, it was a recommendation by ULI to move the site as well as to move up the order of priority for doing the convention center and Hotel sooner rather than later. It is a recommendation that is founded on a vast combined wealth of experience and should be taken seriously. It is my sincere hope that the mayor and others involved will value that recommendation and further qualify it and then do the right thing. If they go maverick on the process and do what they want and disregard those recommendations even under the guise of doing what they promised, that is a real disservice to the public investment and shows recklessness.

The public needs to be educated that with development of anykind, and particularly of the immense scale of what we have undertaken, involves a process of responding to an immense amount of constraints that have to be qualified and programmed around to make any one of the proposed projects to be successful. The ULI made the very good point that the sequence matters in that many of these projects are linked together and so the order can further support and spur private investment that will maximize the return on investment. Doing it wrong could potentially jeapordize the process and stymie the private investment that we hope to incentivize and encourage.

[mugofbeer]

[QUOTE=andy157;305563]

*Eminent Domain does not equal "getting screwed."

Yeah, eminent domain has screwed a lot of people over in the past in other parts of the country (and probably here too at some point), but the Supreme Court put limits on that to some extent and, again, our city leaders haven't shown one iota of evidence they will screw anyone over.


Somewhat of a contridiction don't you think? Thank God for the Supreme Court.

The use of eminent domain has been abused all over the country. I don't know if it has been used much in OKC in an abusive way since the '60's but I don't recall any local controversy. Yes, the Supreme Court needed to step in and stop obvious abuses such as have been used in CT, NYC and Ft. Worth.

My entire point which you simply overlooked is that our city leaders have had MAPS1, MAPS4Kids, the Ford Center vote, a short MAPS extension and the 2007(?) bond issue as examples of their intentions and leadership where they have not abused anyone. Sure, there have been some unforseen changes, inflation and problems, but they have shown integrity and deserve some discretion in putting together such a massive new set of projects.

City leaders had to put together some sort of plan to present to the people for MAPS3. Whether they make small alterations is of no concern. Until they show any sign of abuse, payoffs or any sort of questionable decisionmaking, whether the CC is built first or last makes no difference whatsover.

Find the contradiction in that.

[mugofbeer]

Andy, I'm glad you noticed mugofstuff was blowing smoke both ways too!

Betts, I appreciate your comments. They do seem reasonable. Maps1 all the projects were listed and done as listed. Maps3 they werent, I think to cover the CC that polled at something like %30 approval. I just dont like what I see as a shiftyness to get someones agenda done. That's it, I dont like that aspect of the program, I just dont like it. IMO, thats all it is, so get over yourself mug!

Explain blowing smoke MM......

Where in the world do you get MAPS3 projects were not all listed and completed?? MAPS3 hasn't even started! Show some shiftyness. Give an example of anything anyone has done that was belowboard? You are acusing what seem like good, honest people of doing something wrong when a program hasn't even started. Whose done these alleged wrong things? What was it they did? This type of program has to be flexible and someone has to have authority to make decisions as the need for them come up.

[Mikemarsh51]

Mug, I just laughed when you told Andy157 "Eminant domain does not equal betting screwed......Yeah eminant domain had screwed alot of people". Priceless!!!!!!

My point was Maps1 listed the exact project, all nine of them. They didnt do it on Maps3.

I don't know about you, but for me when a city official says the CC is going to be last, I'm going to think that is the plan. Now that the vote passed a new brain trust says you gotta do it this way! I think that was planned and it looks shifty!

[andy157]

[QUOTE=mugofbeer;305630]

The use of eminent domain has been abused all over the country. I don't know if it has been used much in OKC in an abusive way since the '60's but I don't recall any local controversy. Yes, the Supreme Court needed to step in and stop obvious abuses such as have been used in CT, NYC and Ft. Worth.

My entire point which you simply overlooked is that our city leaders have had MAPS1, MAPS4Kids, the Ford Center vote, a short MAPS extension and the 2007(?) bond issue as examples of their intentions and leadership where they have not abused anyone. Sure, there have been some unforseen changes, inflation and problems, but they have shown integrity and deserve some discretion in putting together such a massive new set of projects.

City leaders had to put together some sort of plan to present to the people for MAPS3. Whether they make small alterations is of no concern. Until they show any sign of abuse, payoffs or any sort of questionable decisionmaking, whether the CC is built first or last makes no difference whatsover.

Find the contradiction in that.

Find the contradiction in that you ask. To begin with, you were doing ok right up to the point where you praised the City for their leadership regarding bond issue projects.

[andy157]

Nope you haven't missed anything and you are right, it was a recommendation by ULI to move the site as well as to move up the order of priority for doing the convention center and Hotel sooner rather than later. It is a recommendation that is founded on a vast combined wealth of experience and should be taken seriously. It is my sincere hope that the mayor and others involved will value that recommendation and further qualify it and then do the right thing. If they go maverick on the process and do what they want and disregard those recommendations even under the guise of doing what they promised, that is a real disservice to the public investment and shows recklessness.

The public needs to be educated that with development of anykind, and particularly of the immense scale of what we have undertaken, involves a process of responding to an immense amount of constraints that have to be qualified and programmed around to make any one of the proposed projects to be successful. The ULI made the very good point that the sequence matters in that many of these projects are linked together and so the order can further support and spur private investment that will maximize the return on investment. Doing it wrong could potentially jeapordize the process and stymie the private investment that we hope to incentivize and encourage.

I agree with everything you have said. Hopefully when its time to do MAPS4 in order to save time, money, and confussion, the City leaders will cut to the chase and bring in the ULI from the get-go.

[mugofbeer]

Mug, I just laughed when you told Andy157 "Eminant domain does not equal betting screwed......Yeah eminant domain had screwed alot of people". Priceless!!!!!!

My point was Maps1 listed the exact project, all nine of them. They didnt do it on Maps3.

I don't know about you, but for me when a city official says the CC is going to be last, I'm going to think that is the plan. Now that the vote passed a new brain trust says you gotta do it this way! I think that was planned and it looks shifty!

Point 1 - Yeah, just like hitting a lot of fly balls to left in Fenway park result in home runs, but hitting a fly ball to left in Fenway Park doesn't = a fly ball. You know what I meant. You're not that dumb.

Point 2 - I don't have time to go back and re-read the 10000 posts about MAPS3 but it was said early on that state law prevents the ballot from listing out the specific projects and earmarking specific funds that way.

Point 3 - what in the world does it matter if the CC is built first or last? I am far and away more concerned it is built in the right place, it is built in an architecturally successful way and that it doesn't detract from everything else done in downtown.

Our city leaders are just that - city leaders. They aren't urban planners, they aren't architects (I don't think) and they aren't urban sociologists. When a group such as the Urban Land Institute sends advisors who are of such prominence and they, as a group, tell the city leaders that some things should be changed, I hope the city leaders pay close attention!

[mugofbeer]

[QUOTE=andy157;305675]

Find the contradiction in that you ask. To begin with, you were doing ok right up to the point where you praised the City for their leadership regarding bond issue projects.

And considering the destruction of our economy starting that same year, exactly what have they done wrong with regard to the bond issue?

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

[QUOTE=mugofbeer;305684]

And considering the destruction of our economy starting that same year, exactly what have they done wrong with regard to the bond issue?

What bond issues are in question?

[zachnash]

Video of the Urban Land Institute's presentation is now online at okc.gov: http://media.okc.gov/OnDemand/ULI.wmv

[OKC@heart]

I agree with everything you have said. Hopefully when its time to do MAPS4 in order to save time, money, and confussion, the City leaders will cut to the chase and bring in the ULI from the get-go.

It would be nice to have their input in the process, unfortunately my understanding of the ULI is that they don't offer these services to everyone, nor can they afford to or logistically support it. However, where projects reach the scope and potential city changing significance such as is found in the MAPS initiatives, they will choose those to provide a review of and make recommendations on. But they have to be viable and funded ones. Unless they are planned, and funded there is nothing for them to review. Mere pipe dreams, which they cannot afford to spend their limited time and resources on. Plans without funding are enticing, fun, and romantic because they are free from any constraints that reality imposes.

In architecture school much of the tireless, unrelenting work that chased many away from that profession, involved the fact that the professors could not effectively critique an idea until that idea was articulated clearly. (In the form of sketches, drawings, models etc.) Upon which the recommended corrections and direction that might more fully accomplish the stated result, involved major revisions to the articulation of the work, with this process repeated over and over until the time for the project was due. With the thought that hopefully at that point the project was by far more dialed in and successful in its aims at satisfying its intended purpose, than the many previous iterations. It is a process that unfortunately is a bit uncomfortable if you are not used to it, but time and time again lends to much more successful place making and projects that really have an impact where they are installed.

Applying the constraints of the real world, opinions of the citizens, land use and planning issues, eminent domain, financing, working to spur private investment, supporting business and tourism in while improving and creating a quality urban environment, and quality of life for its residents thus hopefully translating to the possibility of retaining the creative class, spurring private investment, and drawing corporate employers from less business friendly locations to our great city. It is a tall order to try to accomplish and not everyone is going to agree all of the time. But it is so worth the effort to be willing to make mid course adjustments now before the dirt begins to move. The potential benefits will garner rewards and positive impact for generations if done well. The converse is equally true which is why the recommendations should be given such consideration.

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

Point 1 - Yeah, just like hitting a lot of fly balls to left in Fenway park result in home runs, but hitting a fly ball to left in Fenway Park doesn't = a fly ball. You know what I meant. You're not that dumb.

Point 2 - I don't have time to go back and re-read the 10000 posts about MAPS3 but it was said early on that state law prevents the ballot from listing out the specific projects and earmarking specific funds that way.

Point 3 - what in the world does it matter if the CC is built first or last? I am far and away more concerned it is built in the right place, it is built in an architecturally successful way and that it doesn't detract from everything else done in downtown.

Our city leaders are just that - city leaders. They aren't urban planners, they aren't architects (I don't think) and they aren't urban sociologists. When a group such as the Urban Land Institute sends advisors who are of such prominence and they, as a group, tell the city leaders that some things should be changed, I hope the city leaders pay close attention!

In the infinite words of Councilman Pete White Ward 4, " Am I just asleep at the wheel" or is the Maps 3 vote over with?

Maps 3 has passed.

I think that most of the people on here who are showing concern, are concerned about the city leaders doing what they are saying they are going to do, with no ties to special interests groups. Those projects need to be built with the public in mind, not the money or influence of the special interest groups. The projects need to be built on time and under budget.

Our city leaders are going to be held accountable for any and all campaign promises during MAPS 3. That is to include building all of the projects listed, in the order that they are to be built and the time frames that they will be built in.

Why didnt we have all of the experts in place prior to the Maps3 vote?
Why wasnt a study done at that time in order to pinpoint the placement of the Maps3 projects, before the MAPS3 vote.

We have paid for many studies by experts over the years, such as independent studies on public safety, a study for the placement of furniture in a city building, also a study of the feasiblity of hosting a grand prix car race in the downtown area. What is one more study when you are talking about something as important as MAPS3 projects.

My guess is this, the convention center will be moved up to the first project just like all the NOT THIS MAPS supporters said would happen. Then, we are going to run over on budget and over on time. That 93 month tax will expire and all of the projects that were supposed to be built will not be built.
I just hope its not the project that you voted "yes" for that gets omitted.

We need to keep this from happening. Like I said in an earlier post, we need citizens on this oversight board who are not puppets for the mayor and city manager, because we all know who pulls their puppet strings.

[mugofbeer]

I am all for any citizens oversight board. Didn't they do that on all the other MAPS projects?

[mugofbeer]

You know, considering the time frame of the MAPS projects, projected increases in inflation and such, it would shock me if everything came in on-time and on-budget. Where many public tax projects go very wrong is when they present a far too rosy picture of tax revenues. I'd preferred that MAPS3 tax had been for like 6 months longer just to be sure they got all the money they needed. There may be a reason why they didn't though.

[CaseyCornett]

MikeMarsh51 sure brings entertainment to this thread. I wish I could count it as more than just entertainment but when someone is redundantly negative/against everything it sure makes it hard.
I'm glad I'm not that cynical about my city and it's future.
(looking forward to another yelling/screaming with "!!!!!" at the end of your sentences response...maybe some CAPS)

[mugofbeer]

Its kind of like it would be talking politics with Sean Penn.

[CaseyCornett]

You know, considering the time frame of the MAPS projects, projected increases in inflation and such, it would shock me if everything came in on-time and on-budget.

MAPS for Kids budgeting came within half a percent. Same guys used on MAPS3...

[Martin]

alright... let's keep things civil. -M

[CaseyCornett]

You got it, mmm. How about a say something nice about Mike to make it up?

I do have to give big respect for using your real name when most people won't...it's easy to just get a fake name and say whatever you want behind a shield, I'm glad you don't do that.

I believe you're a fireman (if my memory serves me right) so thank you for all you do for us.

(ok, mmm I gave two things)

[mugofbeer]

Ditto, I'll also thank mm for his fire service. I'll also give him credit for some very insightful things at times. Everyone feel better?

[Mikemarsh51]

Love and Hugs to everyone!!!! Remember we all get to have our own opinions.

[soonerguru]

Love and Hugs to everyone!!!! Remember we all get to have our own opinions.

Great point, and one we should all consider.

To say it more clearly, Mike, you're right, you're entitled to your wrongheaded, misguided opinions.