How did you arrive at the 75K avg. salary? Can you point us to the documents that you used for your calculation? What info. can you provide that will back-up your claim? I'm just curious.Originally Posted by CaptainCouch
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
How did you arrive at the 75K avg. salary? Can you point us to the documents that you used for your calculation? What info. can you provide that will back-up your claim? I'm just curious.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
I think I will have a few chill pills if you are sharing them. lol
Sorry for the rant, I just get frustrated with some of the postings thats all.
Hope everyone is having a great evening....
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
I know what you mean, I've been known to do that myself, just ask mikemarsh and wambo!!!
Everyone have a Great Weekend, stay warm, stay dry and be safe!!
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Okay, I'm done on this entire subject. I don't know how it spills over into every single thread, but it does. I don't even know what thread I'm reading anymore. Is this about MAPS 3? Steve Hunt? The Thunder? I don't know. I just see "Fire Department Fire Department Fire Department" over and over again.
So this is it. I don't care about the fire department.
I don't care about how much money you make. I don't care about your labor negotiations. I don't care if someone 10 years ago cut the number of red fire engines you use. I don't care if they aren't going to hire more people to help. I don't care at all.
Do you benefit from having a union? I'm sure you do. Otherwise you wouldn't join one. But I don't care. I don't care how you run your union, or how much your dues are. I don't care if you aren't happy with how the city is negotiating your new contracts. If they're doing something illegal, fight them. Don't tell me about it.
Want a raise? Want the city to hire more firemen? I don't care. You have lost the public opinion battle, at least on this forum, because no one cares anymore. If you're getting a great salary, and you've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, and blah blah blah you deserve it, then fine. But don't expect any of us to feel sorry for you.
There are lots of people out there with important jobs. Not all of us fight fires. Everyone is hurting in a struggling economy. So you're not happy with how much money is allocated to your department? Get in line. It starts here and goes around the block 16 times. You're behind mailmen, garbagemen, guys from the Department of Environmental Quality, sewer workers, district attorneys, public defenders, policemen, health inspectors, professors, DHS workers, teachers, and a million other professions. We've got 300 million people in the United States, and every single one of them is trying to make ends meet in a recession. Why should the Oklahoma City Fire Department have a special exemption when no one else on the planet does? Do you guys maintain the mystic seal that keeps Lord Cthulhu from rising from the deep and ending the world? No? Then tough titty. Times are hard. Deal with it.
You have every right to fight for the best deal you can. If you're worth more money, then go to it. Great. Negotiate as hard as you can and get the best deal you can. This is America. That's your right. But don't expect anybody to feel sorry for you when you've got a blue collar job that doesn't require a college degree, and you're earning more than twice the average salary of the people who live in this city. It reminds me of the baseball lockout, when millionaires went on strike because they weren't paid enough money to play baseball all day. Do they have a right to get as much money as possible? Of course. Do I have to feel sorry for them? Hell no.
You guys have this idea that we should hold you up as "real American heroes" because your job has an element of danger. You know what? Working at 7/11 is more dangerous than being a fireman. Serving in the military is more dangerous. Being a construction worker is dangerous. Being a Sea World trainer is dangerous. You guys are very well compensated for your job. It's what you chose to do. Don't like it? Quit. You have great PR and get excellent pay and benefits. Every little boy wants to be a fireman, and you get nothing but praise from every elected official. So don't whine and don't get holier than thou on us. "Woe is me, everyone loves me and I make a $***load of cash."
It's annoying.
--
Sorry for the rant. I'm gonna leave it up, though, because I think it's how a lot of us feel. No one hates firemen. Everyone wants to have the best Fire Department possible. We like being safe from fires. But the last few months, this board has been flooded with FD guys who do nothing but bitch about contract negotiations. My dad is a Teamster, so I have nothing against unions. But we don't come to OKCTalk to see every thread become "Fire Department vs City Government part 14."
Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Oh HoyaSooner... you made me laugh. Sometimes we all reach that point!
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
I am sorry that you are having a bad day. I hope that you feel better getting all of that off of your conscious. That was a lot of bottled up hostility towards the fire dept.
RCjunkie is handing out chill pills and I got one yesterday. Shall I get one for you also. They make you feel so much better.
Its a shame that you dont care about the fire dept.
I cant believe that you would say all of the hurtful things about us.
Its obvious that you have never needed our assistance, but you may need it one day. Hopefully not.
You personally may not care about anything that we do and any of our issues. But, believe it or not you are not the only person posting info or opinions on this site. They are many educated people on this site who have asked excellent questions, some had no idea what all services the fire dept provides. I dont expect you to change your tune, you seem quite content in posting the I dont care attitude and thats fine. There have been many misconceptions about the fire dept which I am attempting to clear up, one post at a time. Thanks for your support.
For now, just some friendly advice, if there is a thread title with fire in it, just stay away from it. I dont want you to get all upset.
Hope that you have a better day.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
If you don't like this thread, post your own. It does say "fire department" in the thread. So, I am making an educated guess. It will deal with the fire department. DUH!
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
This will probably piss you off again. Is it true that the City rejected the Union's offer to rollover the contract with no raises? I heard this happened a few days ago.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
.oO(1 whaleofarant, iffin it warn't in a fire dept specific thread)Oo.
Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Hoya is just expressing the kind of public opinion I was talking about. IMHO, the firefighters have become their own worst enemy in a PR sense. People are tired of the "oh poor me" everyone is out to get me argument. There comes a point when, as Shakespear speaketh - "me thinkest thou dost protest too much."
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Hoyasooner, sounds like one of them cops wrote you a ticket! You know it's really simple! DO NOT click on this thread!
Chayes, you are correct. As of the 24th the city rejected that and now they are refusing to cover increased insurance costs that they already agreed to. $200.00 per person. They will not agree to anything unless we remove the reference to them bargaining in bad faith as determined by the arbitraitor.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Exactly..oO(1 whaleofarant, iffin it warn't in a fire dept specific thread)Oo.
Here's an idea hoyasooner, there are 28 sections or sub-sections on the opening page of this forum. In the metro section alone you can open threads about street lights that generate their own electricity. Or there's the pedestrian bridge or the boulevard or Will Rogers airport or I-40 construction or a new yoga studio or the mayors conference or even the possibility of a new tax for the county jail. That's just some of what's available. There's only two threads on the opening metro page that deal with the FD. One of those hasn't been posted in for three days.
I don't see why your having trouble avoiding reading something that will so ruin your day. Surely as an educated person you can avoid the threads that you don't have any concern for. In the future please do that.
Casey, since you decided to weigh in, maybe you can update us on the mayors progress in keeping his promise to hire more public safety employees.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
You guys do beat the dead horse a tad much.
Its contract negotion time, budgets are tight, money is deflating.
a lot of people are unemployed, so dont expect a lot of sympthy cause the city isnt operating in good faith.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Rover, say whatever you feel, I have an idea that there are many like minded people who don't much care for the way the city runs over people. Ask Mr. Cusack how he feels about the way they are treating the land owners in the core to shore area. Me thinks you don't protest unless it affects you.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
So it's OK for the City to act in bad faith based upon a downturn in the economy? Are you saying that if you had and/or did business with the City in one form or another, and were being dealt with in bad faith, you wouldn't mind?
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
As an attorney, if you feel as though your opposing counsel has acted in bad faith, or has used unethecal tactics to prevail in the case, do you have a place you can go to air your complaints? How about homeowners who have been ripped-off by dishonest contractors, where do they go to complain? People who have been treated by an incompetent doctor for medical reasons, who do they bitch to?
So who should City workers voice safety concerns to? The Public you think? Maybe via a public forum? Nobody from the Fire service posting on this forum has said they're not paid enough. This is about paying an extra 3/4 of a cent in taxes for equipment, fire trucks, and the additional manpower to operate them. I don't recall any of the Firefighters asking you to worship them from atop their pedestols. Sorry of the fact you no longer care about the F.D., although I truthfully couldn't care less.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Bad faith or reality? Should the city borrow money to act in good faith if we don't have enough in the budget? If other departments are facing cuts, is the city acting in bad faith with them too? Should we borrow money to keep things the way they are, or raise taxes? All food for thought.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Andy, here's why I suspect the firefighter and police unions are failing to get any traction in all this: they're talking to people in the private sector who, by and large, have been battered with cuts in benefits, wage freezes and more and more work piled on fewer staff due to the economy. Add to that the anti-MAPS 3 activity and the folks on this board who were pro-MAPS 3 are likely to be very unsympathetic toward the unions even if it involves not just freezing raises but also cutting staffing and/or increasing work loads.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong. But after having been a member on this board for the past few years, I think I've got a pretty good idea of the pulse of this site (Andy, to be fair, you've been a member for a while too and I know you've been active in discussions otther than this). It seems the more that those posters associated with the unions try to press their cause here at OKC Talk, the more hostility they draw.
I may be one of the only neutral posters on this site to personally know many police, firefighters and the folks in the administration.
And my only bias is this: I know a lot of honest, hard-working people on both sides of this fight. I'm not sure how all this will end up, but I really do hope that at the end of the day we can remember most folks in this fight aren't bad people - they just have different perspectives. It's looking more and more likely the residents of Oklahoma City will be asked to decide which perspective is best in May.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Betts, rules are rules and they are in place for a reason. When the city violated the rules, they were exposed and ruled against. The city did not try this tactic with other city departments. We understand there is only a certain amount of money. The city can only operate within it's budget. You have NEVER and I will repeat it, NEVER heard any of us demand, let alone ask for a raise. What this is about is the city council and bargaining team trying to pull a fast one on a group of employees. They got caught and now are trying to get rid of the ruling against them. They are refusing to accept any agreement unless we remove any reference to their wrongdoing. That's honest government for you.
Steve, I have been told several times that Maps3 is over and I need to move on. Are you saying as a whole the voters of OKC are going to punish the Fire Dept? You bring up the election in May. You are forgetting that the "Last Best Offer" from the city was thrown out.
The vote is going to be between the Union's LBO and the Cities LBO. With the city not having an LBO due to it being ruled ineligible. Being that they changed wording in the contract and that is considered an"unfair labor practice". What are the citizens going to vote on? Nothing! The city violated the process and now are going to court to try to have their illegal offer added to the ballot. Once again, that is some honest city government.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Mike, what I'm saying is that people I've talked to are upset at the police and fire unions, and yes, that plays into their feelings if there is a vote in May. Not sure if that's easy for anyone to "get over" MAPS 3 when the use tax matter is still up in the air.
I'm not even going to begin to understand the complexities of the negotiations and the issues that might come up in a public vote. But any veteran political observer will quickly note it's not always the issues, but the perception, that matters most in winning at the ballot box.
Those who know me personally, and I think Andy is among them, know that I'm pretty neutral on this one and in the past I've prided myself in irritating both sides at one time or another. All I'm trying to point out is that there are good people on both sides of this fight.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
To add a little to what Steve said about perceptions, many people, mostly non-union types don't see the firefighters or police OKC local chapters as stand alone entities but lumped into the same "union mentality" that they see from the nationals like the UAW, AFL-CIO, etc., so the same taint that some see on them they see on all unions. Most people don't make decisions on the "reality" of situation/cause but their perception of the situation/cause. The antics of the UAW in the GM and Chrysler situations and the UAW/AFL-CIO in health care discussions have further lowered the opinion of most non-union people, which I believe constitutes a majority in the state.
Fair or not you aren't just fighting the perception of how your local does business but also the entire union mentality as it is perceived by the non-union voters.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
betts, the reality here is that the City acted in bad faith almost a year ago, long before these budget issues had surfaced. Now, months and months later, and because the City has refused to comply, their stalling and stonewalling will allow them through public perception to prevail and be rewarded for acting in bad faith by using the economy as their cover.
Other departments are taking cuts that is a fact. However, the P&F departments have made cuts as well. I will admit those cuts have been smaller and less noticable, which is easy to understand due to the fact that the P&F departments have a separate revenue stream others don't.
My issue comes from the fact that the City is collecting an additional 3/4 of a cent in sales tax under the guise of providing a certain level of P&F services and protection. My question is this. Should the City be able to continue collecting the tax while failing to provide the level of service for which it was intended?
As much as I hate to use the word MAPS, what if. What if 6 years from now, after all of the MAPS3 projects had been completed as promised with the exception of 1, lets say the senior centers for example. If the City were to come out 6 years from now and tell us they would contiue collecting the tax, yet they had decided not to provide the centers which the tax called for, would that be ok?
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
Steve, I agree that the public perception of the parties involved, rather than the issues themselves, often determine election results. Where do those perceptions come from though? All too often they are generated in the media, who it seems has chosen sides on the issue. While the city has clearly broken the rules pertaining to collective bargaining in this case, you would never know it by the media coverage. The people get their perceptions from what they see and read in the media. While you might be right that there are good people on both sides, until the media does a better job of covering BOTH sides of an issue, we'll continue to suffer in the public perception realm.
The story in yesterdays paper was the closest thing to nuetral they've printed regarding the FFs in a long time. Still at that, they let the city hide behind phrases like "it's complicated" as to why, when given exactly what they've been asking for, they still chose to turn it down. Choosing instead to continue a court battle that is costing the city money. Not too smart for a cash strapped city.
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Re: Outside counsel hired for Fire Dept negotiations
I'd love to say the newspaper is king of all media and nothing exists outside of it. But that would be naive - and there's a lot to be said about how arguments are presented through new media. I'd be curious as to whether a capable public relations firm would say the unions have used new media to their advantage or disadvantage.
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