Ford Center renovations update

[betts]

Can't find it now but thought I read an article that said the Ice House was gone and the space had been re-purposed??

I'll go look tonight. It's got a different name, but my friends who went there before the last game said it looked the same but had a new name. I'm sure it will either be gone or improved next year, since it's near where the new entrance will be next year.

[Richard at Remax]

It's called Jack Daniels Grill right now. But looks the same. And will be gone by the start of next season

[HOT ROD]

Am curious, in other threads on other forums, Seattle posters indicated that watching a game in the Key was great...great sight lines etc. Is that what you are talking about?

Know I saw a clip of Stern praising the Key (at it's reopening) as a model NBA arena.

Concerning the expansion, while they may not have been able to add seats, I know I read that there was 3 different remodel proposals to prior owners (still offered to Bennett) and a remodel was OK with Stern (he even went to the Washington legislature to lobby for it)...then a remodel wasn't OK when Bennett decided it was a new arena or nothing (although a remodeled Ford was OK)...then OK with Stern again after the Sonics relocated.

Presume that the Key OK/not OK/OK remodel would have been along the same lines as the Ford remodel (the things that maximize team revenues).

KeyArena was/is a great place to watch a bball game because it is very intimate and every seat has a great view of the court. This was by 're'-design and at the time of Michael Jordan, was one of the best arenas (coincidentally, Michael Jordan never played in KeyArena but always played in the much larger but now destroyed Kingdome or Tacoma Dome, due to the large crowds). ...

but that is the Key, in the 1990's we had Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson, and completely different salaries and economic models - so Key Arena was suitable.

but today, things are different. Owners want to make money. And they do so by charging premiums. And Key Arena, well - just can't offer the premiums. So, you can't charge what would be profitable there.

Again, KeyArena IS a great place for the COMMON PERSON to see a NBA game - you are up and close, no matter where you sit. But, in today's model - without Michael Jordan - clubs can't charge premium pricing in a building that just has good 'common seats'.

I hope that sheds some light into the debacle, it isn't that KeyArena is bad - but it is that KeyArena is bad for business and DOES NOT COME CLOSE to tapping into the wealth of the Seattle metro area; whereas Ford Center does/will.

And that is where the NBA/owners make money.

[HOT ROD]

The "worst contract in the NBA" was also touted by Commish Stern (and he approved it). Yes support for the NBA had been decreasing (partly due to the teams on-court performance). Which brings up the point, why did Bennett need a bigger arena when they couldn't fill the seats they had? The other two franchises did indeed get new arenas, but the Sonics got their's first and were back in about 8 years wanting improvements. Didn't the owners of those other Pro teams contribute to those "new houses"? (There are conflicting reports that Bennett's ownership would contribute to a NEW arena). Why was a Key remodel and new lease (3 offers were still on the table for Bennett) not OK with Bennett in Seattle but perfectly OK here (not an original thought, even Mr. Trammel with the Oklahoman asked that question). Why was a remodel of the Key OK with Stern (he even went to the Washington legislature to lobby for it), then not OK when Bennett bought the team, then suddenly OK again when the Sonics relocated?

Given the remarkably similar histories of the Key and the Ford and the people involved, think it will be shorter than 10 years before a new arena is asked for. The Mayor talked about a replacement arena just 4 years after the Ford opened. The age of the arena isn't the issue. I thought replacing a 5 year old arena (still "new" in my view) was absurd. After all we are talking about a building, not a computer. Then I found out the arena was built too small and we needed to be adding seats, not taking them out (even without the NBA).

No matter what the time frame ends up being, that isn't a problem for Bennett any more. He made sure of that in the lease with the City. For at least the next 15 years (expandable by the team, up to 30) the City is contractually obligated to keep making improvements to the Ford to "ENSURE THAT THE ARENA CONTINUES TO BE A FIRST-CLASS NBA ARENA" (similar language exists for the Practice Facility). With NO substantial means of paying for same. If there are structural limitations to achieving that end, the City will really have no choice but to build a new arena. IMO

How much is this going to end up costing? Based on projecting out what we know it has cost so far ($100 to $120M after 5 years) over the 15 to 30 year term of the lease....

Larry, Bennett needed a new Arena in Seattle because KeyArena didn't have the luxury amenities necessary to capture the 'overwhelming' wealth that exists in the Seattle metro area. ..

plain and simple.

the other points about the KeyArena lease are somewhat moot when one considers the cost of attending a game at KeyArena compared to the per-capita income of those attending. The NBA in Seattle the best bargain in the NBA and it is because of KeyArena. If we could have expanded KeyArena to 20000 seats, then maybe it could have worked without the luxury stuff. But, the site is small and the roof is somewhat historic - so, no deal. (besides, the site had already expanded (lowered) to make it into it's current 14,000 seat config.

Again, the problem is Key Arena was designed with the common fan in mind. At the day of Michael Jordan, ie - good talent on the floor and relatively small player/coach/admin salaries, one could charge fans more than you can today given same seating configs.

KeyArena was the 'model' arena in 1995 because it was a great place for the common fan to see a game, and for quite cheap. Well, those same prices are basically in effect "today" but you can't make money off of it with the city taking so much away and Seattle folks paying less (than say OKC folks at ford center). .. way too much income differential to justify staying in Seattle unless a new arena was built to capture the wealth of the area.

[Larry OKC]

I hope that sheds some light into the debacle, it isn't that KeyArena is bad - but it is that KeyArena is bad for business and DOES NOT COME CLOSE to tapping into the wealth of the Seattle metro area; whereas Ford Center does/will.

And that is where the NBA/owners make money.

Don't disagree with anything you said in either posts, but what about the remodel offers made to former owners and then again to Bennett (which would have addressed the money losing aspect)?

Then there is the whole thing about Stern being for the remodel plans/against them/then for them again when the Sonics relocated. If he is for them again, doesn't that suggest that the Key could be redone so it fixed the broken NBA business model?

[betts]

I always thought it was the lease as much as anything that made the Key untenable. Bennett wasn't interested in a remodel, because that would have made the "sweet flip" far less sweet. They weren't going to make the big bucks on a sale of the Sonics (which would have happened eventually had they not been able to move to OKC) without a fancy new arena to lure buyers. Even more frightening, they might not have found a buyer at all, ala Portland and Memphis.

[HOT ROD]

to be fair, here is what I know:

when Bennett first bought the team, he was willing to talk to the city of Seattle about a KeyArena fix. The city immediately shut the door on any future KeyArena reno's or any discussion further on the NBA.

Seattle voters then quickly passed I-91.

THEN ----

Bennett sought to build a new arena outside of Seattle but in Puget Sound. Renton was chosen because the Boeing Company had land it was seeking to liquidate (from factory space) and an investor team had bought a bunch of it for the creation of a modern town center. The arena was seen as a potential anchor to the development but the land would not have been owned by Bennett (but then again, Bennett would have had control over it since the Sonics would have been majority tenant). Price tags for the Arena (with all of the modern bells and whistles) would have been roughly $500M (sorry guys, it's expensive to build in Seattle) and therefore would have required significant public funding. Initially Bennett was offering to cover $100M, with the City of Renton and the State picking up the remainder.

The state laughed at Bennett. The city of Seattle worked with the anti-tax and SOS to prevent any state funding for the Renton arena. This obviously backfired against the city of Seattle when they themselves were seeking said funds to improve KeyArena in an attempt to get the NBA to overrule Bennett and make him sell (will discuss this later).

So, we had Renton people wanting the arena to give them status but nobody else in the Puget Sound (save S. Side residents) willing to even consider it. Well, the Renton Town Center exists today (called the Landing) and there is even a field that is where the arena would have gone. So, actually - Bennett was committed to getting something for Seattle - I argue as others, in hopes that he could then sell at top dollar (higher than his payment of $360M) to Seattle investors led by Ballmer AND the NBA might force Shinn to sell the Hornets to Bennett and/or the Hornets return back to OKC with Shinn but Bennett in a CEO role OR the NBA give Bennett some other team to bring to OKC.

Nevertheless, things didn't work out in Renton and the city of Seattle thought they had it made. They thought they could sweat Bennett out and make him play at KeyArena and then sell - and THEN Seattle could get their act together with Ballmer.

Well - that didn't work out either, Bennett gave the city/state some time ultimatums and then went to the NBA board and got conditional approval to move to OKC. The state balked on that condition, which set Bennett with no choice but to move. Seattle was counting on 1) the NBA to see Ballmer's proposal for the Sonics and encourage Bennett to sell in return for a lower market team or the Hornets 2) the KeyArena lease being Iron-Clad, thereby forcing Bennett to sell or lose millions.

well, you know the rest. the city of seattle totally blew it on this one. At first, they didn't even want to talk to Bennett at all about Key Arena, they sabotashed his efforts with the state on a Renton Arena, and then miscalculated Ballmer's 'attractiveness' to the NBA not to mention their own self professed superiourity to Oklahoma City.

To me, the city of Seattle is the one who is most at fault for the Sonics departure. Howard Schults has a lot of blame too, but the city did the same things to him as they did to Bennett; so I don't fault Howard for losing his hometown spirit in favor of his pocketbook. Also of note, when Schultz 'owned' the team, there were a majority of other investors who also hailed from Seattle - so it wasn't just himself losing money there. Again, I think the city miscalculated the whole thing
1) Bennett would never move away from a self professed '1st rate' market in favor of Jokelahoma City
2) Bennett didn't have the financing to remain viable in such a big market (that didn't have ticket or ad sales to make even the least competitive comparison)
3) Bennett would realize he 'lost' with regard to the lease and therefore would sell
4) the league would bow to Seattle since it is "such a wealthy elite city"
5) if Seattle held firm, the league might force the Hornets to return to OKC instead and thereby give Seattle another chance.
6) Maybe Shinn could weasle his way out of the Louisiana lease and return to OKC, thereby making Bennett moot (since he likely would sell in that regard)
7) Forcing Bennett away from State funding for Renton would force Bennett and the NBA to return to KeyArena talks and/or honor the lease
8) there no way a Seattle judge (federal or not) would allow a 'Seattle institution' to be ripped away in favor of Okie carpetbaggers [hence the city's lack of preparation and performance during the trial]
9) the city miscalculated to 'support' given to them by Sonics fans (see 2009 Seattle mayoral [and other] elections)
10) the city grossly miscalculated the lack of civic support for tax increases for lack of support for the Sonics and the NBA in general, therefore putting the Sonics 'on the backburner'
11) the city grossly miscalculated the influence of their local businessmen in the real world
12) the city grossly miscalculated their perceived value or merit in the national stage
13) the city and city residents grossly miscalculated their power with regard to businesses who are not located in Seattle (see Sonics/Bennett, NBA, Boeing, etc).
14) the city miscalculated the city of Oklahoma City's business sense and drive to become major-league
15) the validity of the lease (or their failure to RECONSTRUCT the lease, further binding Bennett in exchange for their support of state funding....)

as I said, there were many at fault, but in my mind - Bennett is not one of them. He was simply a business man who desired to make money and turn around a thorn in the NBA's side (in return getting his own future franchise); but took advantage of Seattle's stupidity and arrogance AND got Seattle's franchise to take to OKC instead

I honestly can say, without any level of humor, that I truly think Bennett did want to Stay in Seattle. Really. If he succeeded, he could have sold making way more than the original investment and surely would have been handed the Hornets most likely as a gift for saving Seattle. Remember? Bennett was trying all along to get a team for OKC and had sought majority control over the Hornets all along. But with the city doing the same dance to him that they had done to local owners - the writing was on the wall (as Stern said) that the Sonics were leaving. Then, it was only a matter of time (2008 or 2010?).

I also believe Marsha Pechman would have ruled in favor of Bennett because contractual agreements require consideration from both sides and I am sure tha might include KeyArena functioning as a viable option. While not bad from a fan experience, KeyArena is not viable in today's config due to the lack of luxury amenities - you simply can't justify the high prices needed to capture Seattle's wealth. It is quite a shame that with all of the microsoft millionaires and billionaires, 3.3m metro, large media market of most of WA, Vancouver BC, Alaska, N. Idaho, and Montana; that the Sonics were so low when it comes to revenue generated (not to mention fan support). Fans may have supported them but the last few years, they only "followed" the Sonics.

One final thing, In my opinion and many others, Seattle simply can't support 3 major league teams (MLS not included in the discussion, it's a different animal). Seattle is a two league city because it is a bandwagon city. When times are good, you see fans and merchandise sales and so forth. When times are bad, you see apathy but content that 'at least we have a team'. How can you call that fan support, when you have teams out there (Cubs?) who win or lose (mostly lose), the fans always come out. Brewers?, shall I keep going on.

Then there is the argument, Denver has all 4 major leagues (and even teams in the other new major leagues) - but Colorado doesn't really have nearby competition for sports dollar that Washington does (with Vancouver and Portland so close). Unlike Denver, Seattle has ALWAYS had a dark horse sport team with 3 teams and since 2001 - it has been the Sonics.

Again - as far as KeyArena being concerned; Bennett DID attempt at first to discuss KeyArena but the city declined to discuss any public funding for KeyArena, passed I-91, and sabotashed any attempts Bennett to get state funding. Even the potential funding package that was offered for KeyArena at the last minute (Ballmer offered $150M IF the city/state could come up with the remaining $150M, Seattle somehow had $75M, but needed $75M from the state); the stone had been cast that Seattle is not a sports city and could not be worked with. You can say, in the end it was egos - because in reality Bennett probably should have stayed the final two years as a 'good-bye' to the loyal fans (and he probably would have if been treated fairly).

But you reap what you soe, and as a Seattle resident, I can honestly say that it was our leadership (mostly city, but also state) who is why this whole thing happened and NOT Bennett putting up 'an ultimatum for a new palace, or else.'

I don't see the same things happening in OKC. OKC is a one team town right now, and the owners are from OKC and have OKC at heart and a HUGE interest in having this team here (see recruiting talent to your company). This is a blessing for OKC residents in that you have an improvement of quality of life and also your tax roles, and some 'bragging rights' if you will - that 'you built it and they came' and you took on the 'established' city and won.

Im not sure this saga would ever occur again, because I think OKC was in a unique situation (Sonics in trouble, Seattle sick of public spending, Bennett with huge pockets to buy a team at a premium, OKC having proved success with the Hornets and now Stern's baby, doubters about OKC being major league, Seattle completely missing the boat on the whole thing - see above). I think all of these perfect conditions would NEVER be replicated again, but as an OKC expat I am happy for OKC.

As to whether Bennett would demand a new arena so quickly, I highly doubt it. Again, those owners have a HUGE interest in having a major league team in OKC. Otherwise, if you start to hear about Chesapeake or Devon or Sandridge or Sonic or whoever else relocates or merges with Texas companies; only then would I start to worry about 'weird' arena demands showing up in OKC.

[Larry OKC]

So this thread can return to Ford Renovations, I started a new thread called Key Arena and Relocation. If someone wants to move Hot Rods post to it...? If that isn't possible, I will respond there.

[kevinpate]

Or, just a thought, we could simply leave the Key to Seattle.

As for moi, I'd much rather see some of our resident cam fans post scads of photos of the recent renovations.

[HOT ROD]

anyone have any pics of the Ford Center renos?

Also, anyone with info/time care to update the national sites (ssc,ssp)? They are asking for information - and I think we should feed them all of the info we can to spread the word of OKC's renaissance and emergence.

OKLAHOMA CITY - Ford Center Renovations (19,599) - SkyscraperCity

Doug L, I used your pic of Ford Center to give SSC something to chew on. Thanks in advance.

[BDP]

Here's some pics of the new courtside club I hadn't seen before:

[kevinpate]

Here's some pics of the new courtside club I hadn't seen before:

Very nice space!

[dedndcrusr]

Does anyone know when construction will begin for the 3rd phase (exterior) of the renovation? I seem to remember reading something that said renovations would be complete by the end of 2010. That deadline doesn’t seem possible considering groundwork hasn’t even started yet.

[betts]

I doubt they'll start much before the season is over. Of course, if we happen to make the playoffs, our season will be extended, so I may be wrong about that. They'll surely start in April, but I am sure they will want the majority done before the 2010/11 season starts.

[metro]

dedndcrusr, I believe construction is supposed to be over at the end of 2011 or 2012 season, I can't remember. It definitely was never 2010.

[warreng88]

dedndcrusr, I believe construction is supposed to be over at the end of 2011 or 2012 season, I can't remember. It definitely was never 2010.

If I remember correctly, it was supposed to take place over the off season of three seasons. This last off season was #2. Therefore, all of the renovations should be done by the start of the 2010-2011 season and the practice facility should be completed as well. I would assume if we go into the playoffs, they might start working on the locker room and other areas away from the north side of the building to get them completed on time.

[architect5311]

When does the extensive construction occur for the addition of the new main entry, roof terrace and other additions to the exterior? Those will certainly take a 1.5-2 years at least.

[OKC@heart]

When does the extensive construction occur for the addition of the new main entry, roof terrace and other additions to the exterior? Those will certainly take a 1.5-2 years at least.

Based on an older article:

"Additional improvements are planned to be executed following the completion of the 2009-2010 season. After the season, expect the Ford Center’s overall square footage to be expanded to include a new grand entrance with a multi-story atrium, additional restaurants and ticket windows, a warm-up court, family fun zone, along with other minor improvements. Those include new offices for the Thunder coaching staff that will be greatly expanded in size. There’s also a new room for players’ families that will include a nursery for children."

Link to said article: Thunder’s Ford Center Renovation Nearly Complete – HoopAngle: Thunder Edition

[OKC@heart]

For a great overview of the completed improvements and some great imagery, go to the following:

Ford Center Improvements

It also restates the 3rd phase construction to take place post the 2009-2010 season.

[bombermwc]

dedndcrusr, I believe construction is supposed to be over at the end of 2011 or 2012 season, I can't remember. It definitely was never 2010.

Errr. wrong. It was always going to start after this basketball season ends.

[OKCisOK4me]

Notice how, if it be a couple of years, everything construction wise in Oklahoma City coincides with the year 2012. The same year that Hollywood and New Age books are making tons off of because of ancient Mayan prophecy. If anything, I believe 2012 is a rebirth of sorts and it definitely will be a step in the right direction for all of downtown OKC...

[Architect2010]

Errr. wrong. It was always going to start after this basketball season ends.

He's not wrong. Read what he wrote again. Construction was never supposed to end in 2010.

[jbrown84]

I heard that they've pushed the next phase of renovations back a year and they are now scrambling to book the facility for this summer. Lady Gaga is one that they landed.

[LakeEffect]

I heard that they've pushed the next phase of renovations back a year and they are now scrambling to book the facility for this summer. Lady Gaga is one that they landed.

Might want to check on that - I think they pushed off completion, not start. That would allow some new use this summer that wasn't planned for earlier.

[betts]

With us potentially being in the playoffs, and, although if we are in, it's unlikely we'll be in the playoffs for more than one series, you still have to potentially assume you could make it all the way to the finals, and right now cannot plan for construction to start until July. So, it would be very difficult to complete everything this summer, I would assume.