Public safety #1

[OSUFan]

Definately check it out RC because I was gung ho for maps 3 as well, I'm not a fan of the police or fire union and agreed they were blowing things out of proportion. But my brother sent me the link today, it definately seems the mayor and council ignored the warnings. They KNEW a budget mess was coming, you don't miss 10 and 12% revenue shortfalls. They were covering it up, plain and simple Which saddens me to say because I was all for Maps3 defended it to family time and again, and now I look like the fool.


Gaylords.

Interesting, didn't know the Gaylords controlled KFOR, KOCO, KWTW, KSBI, KOKC, KTOK, Journal Record and Oklahoma Gazette. Learn something new every day.

[OUGrad05]

Interesting, didn't know the Gaylords controlled KFOR, KOCO, KWTW, KSBI, KOKC, KTOK, Journal Record and Oklahoma Gazette. Learn something new every day.

I was being sarcastic on that answer, all media blame seems to go to the Gaylords in OKC so thats why I posted it.

[rcjunkie]

I'm not sure what to say to this? Junkie must have fallen off the boat at tenkiller and struck his head on a piece of driftwood. This appears to be a kindly sort of remark made reasonably and in good faith. Weird.

I can really appreciate this from you Junkie.

As to the aforementioned FF, he is rehabbing well and expected to return with the addition of some bionics.

I'm going to weigh in on this thread again, because I've got itchy typing fingers.

It was mentioned during the MIII threads that we were only bringing issues such as these to the front because we were not getting anything from the passage of MAPS.

We were cornered by the obvious disregard that has plagued our negotiations with the city for many years, as stated previously 1995, a year that consequently gave Marrs his political legs. In what other issue is the discrepancy between wants and needs more glaringly apparent? In what other issue could one find the two faces of city government in a lineup side by side.

The smiling, handshaking, ever your buddy, best dressed in 2007 party pleaser, and the hand ringing, nervous, fiscal augur who chimes in with foreboding prognostics of dire financial straits to come, both were on display within weeks of the vote.

I'm not looking to rehash the MIII thing, no need. I would like to examine the duality upon which certain issues are spun and their timing because there are those who like to reiterate that we only got into the fight because we weren't getting our dues. I think that is an unfair accusation. We got into the fight because our services, as they are provided to the citizens who pay for them, are ever being hacked away at behind closed doors in negotiations, while simultaneously appearing to be a priority in public.

In fact a keystone promise made during said campaign was frankly rejected by members of the council, mind you after the vote was passed. Had they denied Mick's wants prior to the vote, perhaps the sway would have gone the other direction, perhaps not....

What other venue would have brought this duality to light better than MIII? Rig issues have recently been brought up because prior to the capricious turn to pander to a hockey team, we weren't really having rig issues. Granted, we were still in the old ones that were on their respective last legs, but we were on a schedule for replacement, now, we have a ladder company operating out of a minivan, not a piece of fire apparatus, a van that soccer moms use for commuting. That rig is only good for manpower meaning that without gear there is no rescue until somebody comes to the rescue of the Fire and Rescue Department.

We are well paid as employees, enough so that our families are taken care of. We are not getting rich as firefighters. We are doing well enough to know that our job is the best job out there. As a department, we are a money suck. How could it be any other way? On a person's worst day we are called to respond in force to mitigate emergencies satisfactorily with citizens our primary concern and their property second and we do this with the moniss that were supposed to be dedicated to us by the vote of the people because service such as ours should be expensive, for being free.

Thanks and my thoughts and prayers go out to the injured firefighter and his family. While we agree to disagree on some issues, a promise is a promise, now it's up to the Mayor and Council to "pony up."
As I stated earlier, if they fail to do as promised, I'll be one of the first to join in and help, being that I'm moving out of Oklahoma County, I can't offer support at the poles, but I can in different ways.

[Wambo36]

Thanks and my thoughts and prayers go out to the injured firefighter and his family. While we agree to disagree on some issues, a promise is a promise, now it's up to the Mayor and Council to "pony up."
As I stated earlier, if they fail to do as promised, I'll be one of the first to join in and help, being that I'm moving out of Oklahoma County, I can't offer support at the poles, but I can in different ways.

The council has already told the mayor that he made those promises and they were under no obligation to follow through on them. Councilman White made this clear, in no uncertain terms, in a recent meeting. Councilman Walters was the only one who sided with the mayor on the need to make good on the promises made. Politics certainly does make strange bedfellows.

[Chef]

RC Junkie I have a place at Stayhorn Landing. 40' off of the lake. can cast a lure from my deck. Some how we will figure on how to meet.
Has anyone thought about this. Maybe Andy 157 or MikeMarsh51. If the Journal record states that 200 additonal FF will be added can they layoff these FF. It appears to me that the city is asking for general fund relief. It also appears the the city has 3 funding sorces. General Fund, 3/4 cent sales tax and hopefully the use tax. So in theory last ones hired first ones fired may not hold true. Only FF in the general fund can be laid off.

[Chef]

Chef, the quote was from Jim Couch about the $823,000,000.00 budget being approved. He stated the we had approx. 11% of that in fund balances. Fire union president Phil Sipe stated that at a $14,000,000.00 monthly shortfall that money would be gone rather quickly. The idea would not fix any problems, just put off the inevidable.

Mikemarsh51 did you mean 14,000,000 a year not a month.

[Mikemarsh51]

I thought I heard we were coming up short that much, I hope I'm wrong. Anyone?

[Wambo36]

They are asking for a 12% cut from each department. I read somewhere that it would be approx. 14 million for the FD. Maybe that's where it came from.

[Mikemarsh51]

Ladder Situation –
1) RL109, RL122, RL9 out of service and will not be repaired
2) RL6, RL16, RL25, RL18 possible repair -$250,000.00 each for repairs
3) RL118 has limited service and will be removed from service
4) RL14, RL34 limited use. No Aerial ladder operation - $200,000.00 each for repairs

[andy157]

Ladder Situation –
1) RL109, RL122, RL9 out of service and will not be repaired
2) RL6, RL16, RL25, RL18 possible repair -$250,000.00 each for repairs
3) RL118 has limited service and will be removed from service
4) RL14, RL34 limited use. No Aerial ladder operation - $200,000.00 each for repairs

Looking at this years budget for the Fire Sales Tax it's easy to see where the City's priorities are, 11+ million transfered to the City's General Fund, 2+ million in reserve, and $350,000. for Capital outlay.

[Mikemarsh51]

Our you saying the city is taking that amount of money out of the FD budget, or cutting the budget that much?

[andy157]

Our you saying the city is taking that amount of money out of the FD budget, or cutting the budget that much?

No and no. What I'm saying is, there is what is called an "other project" that transfered 11+ million dollars from the Public Safety Sales Tax Fund into the City's General Fund, while the PSST Fund still maintains 2+ million dollars of unencumbered revenue. Revenue that could be spent repairing the F.D. fleet of Rescue Ladders. It seems as though skimming and saving is more important than Firefighter safety and having the ability to rescue those poor soles trapped by fire, collapse, floodwaters, and so on, and so on.

[kevinpate]

Educate me andy, if you don't mind. I'm presuming there are numerous expenses for public safety that are covered from via the General Fund. If that is correct, then why shouldn't the PSST funds be transferred into the GF to go toward those expenses? Isn't that what the tax is designed for, to raise funds to assist with the public safety budget?

[Larry OKC]

If this has been covered in the thread previously, my apologies. While certainly not "new" news, I just ran across the contrary article today.

The City claims that MAPS 4 Kids Use Tax generated $60M for public safety may not be accurate. Both of these articles are dated the same day.

MAPS 3 use tax to fund safety in Oklahoma City (11/13/09)NewsOK

City records show public safety has received $60 million of use tax revenue from MAPS For Kids, which passed in 2001.

$60M was the total amount raised and only $16M used for public safety by that use tax if the Journal Record article is correct...


Oklahoma City mayor speaks out about MAPS 3 opposition info (JR, 11/13/09)
Oklahoma City mayor speaks out about MAPS 3 opposition info | Journal Record, The (Oklahoma City) | Find Articles at BNET

About $15.9 million of an estimated $60.3 million in use tax collected from the MAPS for Kids issue has already been applied to support public safety on materials such as police cars, firetrucks, police helicopters, technology and fire stations. On $777 million, the use tax is projected to be about $90 million, city officials said.

of which only an unspecified amount might be dedicated and then only for the 1st two years of the 7.75 year tax.

[LakeEffect]

Educate me andy, if you don't mind. I'm presuming there are numerous expenses for public safety that are covered from via the General Fund. If that is correct, then why shouldn't the PSST funds be transferred into the GF to go toward those expenses? Isn't that what the tax is designed for, to raise funds to assist with the public safety budget?

Yeah... I thought that the PSST funds were transferred to the GF any time they were actually used. The transfer alone doesn't necessarily equate to non-Fire use.

On a second note, City Council is awarding a contract for one, with options for more, new rescue ladder on Tuesday. $750,000 or so in cost...

[kevinpate]

... , City Council is awarding a contract for one, with options for more, new rescue ladder on Tuesday. $750,000 or so in cost...

Is this one of the units that got stalled back in December when all the hockey improvement talk was underway? Good news if so. Actually, in light of some of the equip down reports folks are printing here, it's good news period, and I hope it continues for the optionals as well.

many of you, most actually, I only know via your posts, but if your area needs a ladder truck, I sure hopes you have one.

[tehvipir]

I am not sure if this has been posted, but for the people that voted yes for maps i got a qustions. During the Mayors tv speech that aired approx 1 week prior to the Dec 8 vote he talked about "A Vote for Maps ensures more police and fire protection". Right now as some have stated we have been asked to take about a 12% budget cut which since most of our budget is staffing, could mean approx 145 Firefighters lose their jobs. KNowing this also keep in mind that the City needs around 213 firefighters in order to have all the stations and apparatus staffed to provide adequet fire protection to the citizens. so each shift would lose approx 45 positions which would mean around 20% of the fire protection would be lost.

My question to you is, if the city decided to cut the positions would you support the FD on keeping the jobs? Would you hold the mayor accountable to his words that a vote for maps would provide MORE fire protection?

You look at the Ladder situation and let it be known that the only 1st line Ladder in operation south of I-40 is ladder 7 at 23 Bryant area. How does that make the southside people feel?

[tehvipir]

Also would it matter if the jobs did get cut which stations it would close or what part of the city would lose the protection? would it matter if the fire station that was right down the street from you is closed and now the closest one is miles away? Would that make you support the FD efforts or would you not care as long as you and your family is still protected?

[ljbab728]

Also would it matter if the jobs did get cut which stations it would close or what part of the city would lose the protection? would it matter if the fire station that was right down the street from you is closed and now the closest one is miles away? Would that make you support the FD efforts or would you not care as long as you and your family is still protected?

This has been discussed ad infinitum during the leadup to the vote. The new tax hasn't even gone into effect yet so blaming that for this situation won't work. And voting down the new tax would not have improved the situation in the least. I'm not against the fire fighters in the least but I'm more of a realist about this.

[Midtowner]

tehvipir:

How would fire's situation be improved if MAPS 3 had not passed?

In other words, explain how the base premise of your argument is not a non sequitur.

Go.

[Mikemarsh51]

ljbab728, we are not arguing the Maps3 tax here. We are only pointing out the methods used to sell it. Thank God we are getting a park and trails! The ironic part is, if it passes you get 30 more public safety officers. Now it is passed and OOOPPSS! We need to cut %12 of all personnel.

Midtowner, whether he makes an illogical conclusion to his premise or not, his situation is still dire. Let's look at your name Midtowner, if you live in mid town, you are covered pretty well and if a hand full of firefighters are terminated it won't really bother you because protection is good for you. What about the folks who live at SE 164th and Air Depot? There was a G.O. bond issue in 2007 to build a new fire statioin at SE 149th and Douglas to provide better protection, (does one citizen deserve better protection than any other?) yet it is not scheduled to be built for 10-12 years from now. Presently, the closest fire station is at SE 74th and Air Depot. How do you think they would like the limited manpower the already have coming from a great distance to be cut by %25? From 4 firefighters to 3.

The city has a rainy day fund that could cover any budget shortfalls. Somewhere around 50-70 million dollars. We are hearing that the recession is over, we should have the money to get us through without cutting any jobs.

[Midtowner]

ljbab728, we are not arguing the Maps3 tax here. We are only pointing out the methods used to sell it. Thank God we are getting a park and trails! The ironic part is, if it passes you get 30 more public safety officers. Now it is passed and OOOPPSS! We need to cut %12 of all personnel.

There was nothing disingenuous about the methods to sell it. Will MAPS 3 result in more revenue for police and fire? There is no one who can reasonably deny it. MAPS is not about this current fiscal year, or even the next or the next ten. It's about building a successful future for OKC -- leaving a legacy to our children and grandchildren.

Midtowner, whether he makes an illogical conclusion to his premise or not, his situation is still dire.

With or without MAPS, the situation would be dire. At least now, even apart from a general nationwide economic recovery, we have more hope than we would sans MAPS. No thanks to the unions, I might add.

[BigD Misey]

I'm sure i'm missing something, but just browsing through the thread...
It is possible that the Fire and Police Dept. would have experienced a LARGER percentage of layoffs had it not been for Maps. It could be as bad as Tulsa's issues or Fort Meyers, FL, and here in Dallas and Fort Worth, recently there have been significant cuts to both departments to bennefit the city's budget. It seems that these cuts are a natural result of cities that are trying to survive, and particularly cities that have experienced a recent sizable growth but now are dealing with an economic slow down.
Just sayin...no boubt the city knows the needs but why blame the mayor when likely the economy plays the larger role. It sounds like Maps has and will be a long term commitment to building the population and tourism/local interests which in turn builds the budget and from that come department improvements.
Just think about your own budget. Just because you know its a need doesn't mean you can just snap your fingers and make it happen. And while you know you need a new Washer or dryer, a new car will cost more yes, but it may benefit you more in the long run. So you opt for the car, and deal with the smaller budet item in a few months as you set aside what you can for the washer. Budgets are more immediate: Layoffs today but possibly mass hirings in a few months. Who knows what the future brings. Why blame the mayor. Thats making it a singular factor, when the budget is affected by multiple factors. Raise the voice, but no need to sling mud, when we ourselves likely couldn't do much better to quiet critics in the public forum.
False words from the mayors mouth...maybe, it has happened in politics before. But, now that the wheel is squeekin' get ready for some oil.
Give him a bit of time to show what he's made of.

[Mikemarsh51]

Midtowner, it is interesting that you can be right and wrong at the same time! Maps is about now and the future and most of the last seventeen years. Mr. Cornett made claims that the Maps use tax would provide certain benefits to public safety. The claim was made to sell it. Call that what you want, disingenuous most likely would fit into that catagory. Building something to leave our kids would most certainly include a safe city. Not one that has been picked clean to entice a would be hockey team.

And just to correct you again, Oklahoma City Police and Fire unions were on board with Maps from the beginning. Much to your dismay, we worked for the passage of the previous plans. Donating manpower and cash. So take your union-hating cry-baby antics somewhere else.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner, it is interesting that you can be right and wrong at the same time! Maps is about now and the future and most of the last seventeen years. Mr. Cornett made claims that the Maps use tax would provide certain benefits to public safety. The claim was made to sell it. Call that what you want, disingenuous most likely would fit into that catagory. Building something to leave our kids would most certainly include a safe city. Not one that has been picked clean to entice a would be hockey team.

It still remains to be seen whether the Use Tax will be used in such a way. My understanding was that at the time, that was an offer made by the city in order to gain the support of the unions, but the offer was rejected. I'm not sure how in that case, you could reasonably consider the city bound morally or otherwise.

And just to correct you again, Oklahoma City Police and Fire unions were on board with Maps from the beginning. Much to your dismay, we worked for the passage of the previous plans. Donating manpower and cash. So take your union-hating cry-baby antics somewhere else.

Were they or were they not on board with MAPS 3?