OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

[SkyWestOKC]

The December 2009 statistics are available.

For the month (DEC):
OKC [Will Rogers]
*Aircraft Operations were down 15.56% (8930 from 10,575)
*Enplaned Passengers were down 1.47% (138,131 from 140,198)
*Deplaned Passengers were down 2.00% (131,121 from 133,794)
... Resulting in a net Passenger decrease of 1.73% (269,252 from 273,992)
*Enplaned Freight was up 12.67% (2,948,823 lbs from 2,617,120 lbs)
*Deplaned Freight was up 8.17% (3,403,023 lbs from 3,146,083 lbs)
... Resulting in a new Freight increase of 10.21% (6,351,846 lbs from 5,763,203 lbs)

PWA [Wiley Post]
*Aircraft Operations were down 5.17% (4,655 from 4,909)
(Note: Commercial and Air Taxi ops were up 16.42% and 16.52%)

For the year (2009):
OKC [Will Rogers]
*Aircraft Operations were down 5.51% (129,320 from 136,856)
*Enplaned Passengers were down 8.69% (1,688,743 from 1,849,436)
*Deplaned Passengers were down 9.12% (1,695,928 from 1,866,157)
... Resulting in a net Passenger decrease of 8.91% (3,384,671 from 3,715,593)
*Enplaned Freight was down 3.92% (32,620,424 lbs from 33,950,076 lbs)
*Deplaned Freight was down 0.98% (37,723,862 lbs from 38,097,537 lbs)
... Resulting in a new Freight decrease of 2.36% (70,344,286 lbs from 72,047,613 lbs)

PWA [Wiley Post]
*Aircraft Operations were down 5.75% (69,981 from 74,251)
(Note: Commercial and Air Taxi Operations were up 61.11% and 33.55%)

---

All statistics are based on the year before, not the month before. For example: The December monthly statistics are compared to December 2008, not November 2009.

Source: FlyOKC.com http://flyokc.com/releases%5C10-06%2...20Activity.pdf

[OUman]

Delta Connection will be adding additional flights between OKC and both, DTW and SLC. OKC-DTW-OKC will get one more for a total of 3 daily CRJ 900s and SLC will get one more as well for a total of two daily CRJ 100s/200s.

Source: DELTA Spring 10 N America Increase on 36 Routes AIRLINE ROUTE UPDATES

May not seem like much but when you're one of just 36 North American markets getting service increases on not one but two routes I'd say it's not too shabby, given the passenger traffic decreases. That too with CRJ 900s to/from DTW.

[Richard at Remax]

Im taking a frontier flight in late april to Orlando so hopefully it's not axed by then

[SkyWestOKC]

The advertising is helping the Frontier Orlando and Tampa flights. And the spring break flights seem to be selling OK. I think once this route gets some momentum they might extend the Orlando route or make it all year. With the proper flight times and advertising, the Orlando route will be a success.

We have the proper advertising now, but the flight times are still very poor for a market like OKC.

[Luke]

I'm loving the OKC-Tampa nonstop since I've moved to Tampa, friends and family will be able to visit easily without an annoying layover in Dallas or anywhere else.

I really hope the OKC-Tampa nonstop with Frontier succeeds.

Of course Orlando would work too, not too far from here.

[venture]

I would really like to see Frontier do more here. Add a flight to connect with the Midwest flights in Milwaukee, and also provide an alternative to UA/AA into O'Hare. Perhaps additional Florida service or even Cancun.

[ljbab728]

I would really like to see Frontier do more here. Add a flight to connect with the Midwest flights in Milwaukee, and also provide an alternative to UA/AA into O'Hare. Perhaps additional Florida service or even Cancun.

Rather than competing on flights to O'Hare, competing with Southwest to Midway would be better. They could be the only nonstop there. Cancun is a little more difficult. Until OKC gets a customs and immigration facility they would have to do the same thing the charter flights from here to Cancun used to do which is make a stop in DFW to go through customs and immigration.

[venture]

Rather than competing on flights to O'Hare, competing with Southwest to Midway would be better. They could be the only nonstop there. Cancun is a little more difficult. Until OKC gets a customs and immigration facility they would have to do the same thing the charter flights from here to Cancun used to do which is make a stop in DFW to go through customs and immigration.

I'm saying serve Milwaukee to compete against Chicago overall. Plus, Milwaukee makes sense being a hub that can offer connecting service on to other locations. Midway is only served from DEN for them, but does little else except offer an O&D market from OKC. Whereas Milwaukee would bring in additional connections to many cities. Route Map - Frontier Airlines

As far as CUN...I am really shocked that OKC didn't think forward some and allow at least a couple gates to be utilized for international flights to allow for charters. Granted, most cities we would have international service from offer pre-clearance...the INS seems to be having issues with Mexico from what I've been reading.

[SkyWestOKC]

It's funny - we have the National Customs and Border Patrol Training Facility on airport, yet we do not have our own customs facility. The Airport shot itself in the foot by putting the customs facility in the proposed East Concourse. We could have done something like SMF [Sacramento] and build a small customs facility with a jetway attached and staff it only when there is an international arrival coming in.

I also think a Milwaukee flight would do good. The only problem is the low O&D on the route: 25 passengers (12.5 each way) per day on average. Assuming Frontier would get 50% of that marketshare, that is about 6 passengers each way locally. This would be a 100% connecting flight - which does work in some extreme cases: Memphis, for example, has the exact same local traffic, but spread across ~150 seats (average 3x daily CRJ-200's (50 seat Regional Jet))

What they could do is reposition our Orlando/Tampa flights; give Kansas City or Austin our current flight times as they can support the seats better at that flight time. Instead, run Milwaukee-OKC-Orlando/Tampa-OKC-Milwaukee on the E190. If the flight left Milwaukee in the early morning, it would arrive here at around 10am, and be in Orlando at about 1pm or noon. It would be back in OKC by 4 or 5pm and be back in Milwaukee at about 8PM. That would require an entire airplane for the day, but that would work better than the current setup by far.

The flight would work if the flight times were better. Omaha has the good flight times, and their flight is getting extended year round, and ours is set to end on 18APR2010 unless things turn around. Spring Break is selling good, at least, Friday the 12th is.

[SkyWestOKC]

Salt Lake City to Oklahoma City to go to 3 flights a day beginning in April.

Source: OAG Changes 2/5/2010:AA/AM/AS/CO/DL/FL/UA/ZK — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net

[Celebrator]

Glad we're keeping Frontier service to Denver....it was announced today that Tulsa will lose theirs. See story: Republic Airways Announces Fleet Simplification Plan - MarketWatch

[ljbab728]

Glad we're keeping Frontier service to Denver....it was announced today that Tulsa will lose theirs. See story: Republic Airways Announces Fleet Simplification Plan - MarketWatch

Denver is our best served city based on competition with us now having United, Frontier, and Southwest flying nonstop. Airfare into Denver used to be very high but has become quite reasonable in the last few years.

[chrisok]

Frontier seems to have an off/on relationship with TUL. Looks like it's off again.

[venture]

Denver is our best served city based on competition with us now having United, Frontier, and Southwest flying nonstop. Airfare into Denver used to be very high but has become quite reasonable in the last few years.

Yes which means no airline is making money on them now because fares are too low to meet the illogical and stupidly unrealistic demands of the flying public, so we'll probably see more cut backs eventually. So nice of Southwest to dump more capacity in a market that didn't really need it. :-P

[venture]

Frontier seems to have an off/on relationship with TUL. Looks like it's off again.

Tulsa has never warmed up to Frontier and honestly, airlines need to get away from this need to serve both cities in the state. Serve the large market, and if people are attracted to the service, let them make the drive. We have people driving to Dallas and Wichita for lower fares and nonstop service to certain markets...concentrating on OKC vs. TUL should be a priority for any new entrant into the Oklahoma market.

Now on the flip side. We get larger aircraft, perhaps. If we get the Embraer 170s, it'll be a wash...I think the Dash 8 Q400s seat more or just the same. If they do the 190s which current make the Florida runs, then all the better.

[ljbab728]

Yes which means no airline is making money on them now because fares are too low to meet the illogical and stupidly unrealistic demands of the flying public, so we'll probably see more cut backs eventually. So nice of Southwest to dump more capacity in a market that didn't really need it. :-P

So the public is illogical and has stupid unrealistic demands? Well that is the reality of any business that deals with the public and it's always going to be that way. The business just has to adjust and deal with it. Having minimum airfares of $500.00 roundtrip to Denver was stupid and unrealistic a few ago too. When the airlines don't have competition they are going to have price points that in some cases could be considered gouging the public. Airlines are always going to have to adjust fares and capacity depending on competition. Some markets are always going to be overpriced and some are going to be underpriced. I don't think anyone would advocate that we go back to the days when the government controlled the prices that airlines could charge.

[venture]

So the public is illogical and has stupid unrealistic demands? Well that is the reality of any business that deals with the public and it's always going to be that way. The business just has to adjust and deal with it. Having minimum airfares of $500.00 roundtrip to Denver was stupid and unrealistic a few ago too. When the airlines don't have competition they are going to have price points that in some cases could be considered gouging the public. Airlines are always going to have to adjust fares and capacity depending on competition. Some markets are always going to be overpriced and some are going to be underpriced. I don't think anyone would advocate that we go back to the days when the government controlled the prices that airlines could charge.

I guess I look at it this way. For the past couple of years Southwest was not making money operationally except for the fuel hedging part of their business. Yet, they were using this advantage to drive air fares down by competitors. Not a big deal, its business...that's how it works. However, I agree the business has to adjust just like the passengers must be prepared to actually pay for the cost of travel. If anyone thinks a $59 or 79 fare actually pays for most of these one way flights, they are stupid. It is time to suck it up and pay the $150+ that it actually costs. In the long run then, this will drive demand down and allow more consolidation to occur in the industry - which is required. I think we are seeing a happy medium starting to occur right now though with bag and other ancillary fees. US Airways reported about $500M in income from these, which is similar to every other major. Southwest will likely finally give in over the next year or two as they are losing a massive amount of revenue while facing a continued rise in labor costs (thanks to the work for getting older and unions getting stronger).

[flintysooner]

Just traveled to Las Vegas and back the other day which was only my second time to fly since 2001. It was unpleasant enough for me that I plan to avoid air travel period.

[Lauri101]

I fly a lot for business and some for pleasure. I think that I've lowered my expectations which has helped decrease stress.

I still dream of a non-stop flight from OKC to DCA - sigh - nice dream.

[SkyWestOKC]

That would be nice, but with Southwest on Baltimore and United on Dulles, it might be a long shot. But maybe someone will try it. I would like to see Delta announce JFK to OKC and United announce San Francisco to OKC. Both are extremely possible with the current passenger numbers.

[venture]

About our only shot at DCA would have been US Airways, but I doubt we'll ever see them back in OKC.

[ljbab728]

Southwest will likely finally give in over the next year or two as they are losing a massive amount of revenue while facing a continued rise in labor costs (thanks to the work for getting older and unions getting stronger).

You could be right but I doubt it. I just read an article about Southwest being very pleased with their passenger count and revenue being up substantially. They attibuted the rise in large part to their policy of no baggage fees

[Larry OKC]

Southwest must be doing something right (true they came out ahead w/fuel deals as mentioned earlier). But also read they operate without going into debt? While other airlines are higher priced they have to keep adding on more and more extra charges and still are struggling to make a profit. Essentially, if SW flies there, thats the airline I am going to take without question.

[ljbab728]

Southwest must be doing something right (true they came out ahead w/fuel deals as mentioned earlier). But also read they operate without going into debt? While other airlines are higher priced they have to keep adding on more and more extra charges and still are struggling to make a profit. Essentially, if SW flies there, thats the airline I am going to take without question.

While I appreciate what Southwest does in terms of prices and competition, I really don't like flying with them. The idea of almost fighting for seat assignments like musical chairs doesn't appeal to me.

[venture]

Southwest must be doing something right (true they came out ahead w/fuel deals as mentioned earlier). But also read they operate without going into debt? While other airlines are higher priced they have to keep adding on more and more extra charges and still are struggling to make a profit. Essentially, if SW flies there, thats the airline I am going to take without question.

Umm what? Southwest has $3.3B in debt as of the end of 2009. Not that this is bad though, but they are in debt like any other airline. Operating margins continue to slide and their expenses increase. Their CASM (cost per available seat mile) is at 10.29 cents. Roughly 2 cents higher than companies like Frontier, and 1 cent lower than US Airways. So they are in the situation like most long standing airline of having their costs continue to rise, while newer airlines will be able force some pricing pressure.

However, like LJ stated - it is the product that Southwest offers that isn't attractive. They may have decent fares, they are *NOT* the lowest fare airline in the country (at times the highest on certain routes), but their in cabin service is barren. No you don't have to pay for bags, but you also have no in flight entertainment, reserved seat, etc. I'm sorry, I don't like waiting in line trying to deal with every redneck that chose to fly that day. My preferred company has been Frontier this past few years (yes, at the expense of my medallion level status with Delta) and I have no desire to change. The crews are great, the product is awesome compared to other airlines, and I've never had a problem with a flight. Yes I've dealt with delays, I've done that at any airline...but I always get where I'm going. My last trip on Southwest...my bag came out damaged and the crews were more interested in joking around than dealing with doing their job.

I also don't really care for the company that couldn't really care less for the market and provide nonstop markets that smaller cities have.