We always talk about Dallas...

[Spartan]

The problem is that there's not a way to attack OCURA. There's no way to put them on the hot seat and get them to start doing what we want them to do. I've been to an OCURA meeting before, they don't actively solicit input from the community in the way that City Council and Planning Commission do. In fact OCURA meetings are really hard to find.

[MikeOKC]

The problem is that there's not a way to attack OCURA. There's no way to put them on the hot seat and get them to start doing what we want them to do. I've been to an OCURA meeting before, they don't actively solicit input from the community in the way that City Council and Planning Commission do. In fact OCURA meetings are really hard to find.

I know that OCURA members are appointed by the mayor. Can the mayor not ask for greater transperency and offer a program to accomplish that? I would think that's good use of the bully pulpit.

As for the thread, I spend time in the DFW metroplex and am amazed at the rate of growth all over, but bowled over at the things going on in and around Ft. Worth. I don't get over there much but when I do there is always something new to see. The 'new urbanist' development looks like it will be really nice based on the plans in this thread. I live part-time (one of my three-city haunts) in what some on the forum call a "faux urban" district (Shops at Legacy) and absolutely love it there.

[Spartan]

See I'm the opposite. I get down to Dallas about 5-6 times a year, and I only get to see Ft Worth about 3-4 times a year.. Dallas is the one that just amazes me every time I go back down there.

Last time I was down there in December I was amazed at how DOWNTOWN was completely gridlock at 3 am..some very cool new clubs open in the heart of downtown. Very vibrant after hours. That kinda brought it full-circle for me, because I've gotten accustomed to being amazed at various parts of Uptown Dallas and other projects along the red line (DART)..

[MikeOKC]

See I'm the opposite. I get down to Dallas about 5-6 times a year, and I only get to see Ft Worth about 3-4 times a year.. Dallas is the one that just amazes me every time I go back down there.

Last time I was down there in December I was amazed at how DOWNTOWN was completely gridlock at 3 am..some very cool new clubs open in the heart of downtown. Very vibrant after hours. That kinda brought it full-circle for me, because I've gotten accustomed to being amazed at various parts of Uptown Dallas and other projects along the red line (DART)..

I guess I meant because I see Ft. Worth less often, there's a lot of time for things to have happened. As for Dallas, it's a constant machine. The DART and the development/re-development it's spawned along the Red Line has been quite dramatic to watch. The number of entertainment/living districts are mind boggling. Dallas is not a compact Boston, but it offers a bit of everything. I've never understood the Dallas haters, I like it much better than many other so called "great cities."

[progressiveboy]

See I'm the opposite. I get down to Dallas about 5-6 times a year, and I only get to see Ft Worth about 3-4 times a year.. Dallas is the one that just amazes me every time I go back down there.

Last time I was down there in December I was amazed at how DOWNTOWN was completely gridlock at 3 am..some very cool new clubs open in the heart of downtown. Very vibrant after hours. That kinda brought it full-circle for me, because I've gotten accustomed to being amazed at various parts of Uptown Dallas and other projects along the red line (DART)..

Agree! The only real issue I have living in Dallas is the traffic nightmare. It makes up with so much to offer single people and families as well. Dallas is not afraid to go out and continually reinvent itself or to land well paying jobs. Just in last weeks DMN rumour has it that 2 major corporate relocations may take place one from the east coast and the other from the west coast. It constantly amazes me the continuation of building and growth in Dallas. Some of my friends in OKC always say, I can't stand the traffic and gridlock in Dallas. I tell them I am not fond of it either, however, you "cannot" depend on comfort to make you a living.

[Spartan]

Being successful in Dallas, and Houston to an even greater extent, requires a certain type of proactive (almost aggressive) personality that takes advantage of opportunities. It's like that with everything, from job hunting, to shopping, even simply driving to work.. Here's the reality.. no city has ever successfully spun "relaxing lifestyle, low stress, low traffic" into a productive economic development pitch. Those cities with traffic and stress--you know what?--people learn to deal with those issues.

Maybe people shouldn't have to drive from Moore/Norman to Penn Square or Quail Springs for decent shopping. When I was at OU I actually worked as an asst manager at a store in Penn Square, and that commute got real old real quick..hated it. In Dallas and Houston decent shopping, good restaurants, etc are all in YOUR part of town. So traffic is worse, but nobody is driving all the way across Houston day in day out like people are in OKC, which I would contend, is even more of a hassle.

As for a "great city" I don't see how Dallas, or at least Houston, aren't considered among the "great cities" of the country. Houston is the nation's 4th largest city and has the 3rd largest number of embassies and consulates, culture and arts that are incomparable except to New York, and more languages spoken per capita than any other place in the US. Northerners that go out of their way to belittle Houston because they think it's nothing but sprawl are so out of touch it's not even funny. Houston, with its light rail and haphazard development and urban parks and 3rd most skyscrapers, is a VERY urban place.

[mugofbeer]

See I'm the opposite. I get down to Dallas about 5-6 times a year, and I only get to see Ft Worth about 3-4 times a year.. Dallas is the one that just amazes me every time I go back down there.

Last time I was down there in December I was amazed at how DOWNTOWN was completely gridlock at 3 am..some very cool new clubs open in the heart of downtown. Very vibrant after hours. That kinda brought it full-circle for me, because I've gotten accustomed to being amazed at various parts of Uptown Dallas and other projects along the red line (DART)..

Sorry, but I gotta cry BS on the gridlock at 3AM statement. Dallas has a lot going for it and it has far more in it than OKC, but it also has 4x the people - but after living there for 13 years, there's no gridlock at 3AM and there hasn't been since the end of the wild OU-Texas weekends on Commerce St. Dallas has plenty of problems, like any city. It's downtown is virtually dead at night. The areas of life such as West End and Deep Ellum have mostly died away for the newer uptown areas. If you have gridlock at 3AM in downtown Dallas, it is likely something you don't want to be involved in.

[Spartan]

That's a very pecksniffian, almost judgmental, opinion. Generally you're not far off, but the area around the Lizard Lounge between downtown and Deep Ellum was pretty active. I prefer Greenville Ave personally, but DTD is getting there.

[mugofbeer]

LOL Pecksniffian???

No, I have no doubt downtown Dallas is finally starting to show some life with all the condo conversions (now, probably apartment rentals with the economic slowdown). The Lizard Lounge isn't downtown, is it? Its towards Greenville past Deep Ellum?

[Spartan]

You don't know what pecksniffian means? Well that just ruined the conversation..

[mugofbeer]

Is it anything like codswallop?

[dismayed]

That's a very pecksniffian, almost judgmental, opinion. Generally you're not far off, but the area around the Lizard Lounge between downtown and Deep Ellum was pretty active. I prefer Greenville Ave personally, but DTD is getting there.

Hey Lower Greenville in the University Park area is one of my favorite parts of Dallas too. Really cool scene.

Agree that Dallas and Ft. Worth are realities apart from one another. When I lived in Dallas the local Dallasites all seemed to refer to the place as Ft. Worthless.

[mugofbeer]

With Hurts, Useless and Dredford in between.....nothing beat west FLower Mound and its acreages. I miss it.

[skyrick]

With Hurts, Useless and Dredford in between.....nothing beat west FLower Mound and its acreages. I miss it.

Flower Mound is rapidly expanding toward 377 & 35W. When I moved to DFW in '88 FM had one stoplight. It's almost as bad as Allen/Frisco now.

[dismayed]

With Hurts, Useless and Dredford in between.....nothing beat west FLower Mound and its acreages. I miss it.

Haha, Useless! I hadn't heard that one before... love it!

[BigD Misey]

Spartan...
I've been reading your posts and totally agree. Dallas has experienced new construction and regrowth in its interior through purchases of large plots with low income apt demolition and aquisition of undeveloped areas. There is as much construction and development now as there was back in the 80's.

Contributing to this is the influx of both east and west coast companies that are offsetting the telecom corridore crash. The breif surge of profitable years for energy companies and oil companies helped as well.

Whats missing is the cultural and agricultural allure of Ft worth. Conversely, it seems Ft worth is slowly loosing the corporations which has anchored the city for decades, and has largely contributed to its downtown. Ft worth still remains the place to 'hang out' for now, but in another decade with the progress that is being made down here, its just a matter of time until Dallas becomes the big brother to FT Worth in both buiness and culture.

Having said that, living in Dallas for over a decade this is NOT one of the great cities by a long shot. It has a lot to offer but, when compared to NYC, San Fran, St. Louis, Chicago or even Austin, those cities have much more to offer in my opinion.

[Spartan]

Is it anything like codswallop?

In the sense that it sounds goofy, yes.

[soonerguru]

Sorry, but I gotta cry BS on the gridlock at 3AM statement. Dallas has a lot going for it and it has far more in it than OKC, but it also has 4x the people - but after living there for 13 years, there's no gridlock at 3AM and there hasn't been since the end of the wild OU-Texas weekends on Commerce St. Dallas has plenty of problems, like any city. It's downtown is virtually dead at night. The areas of life such as West End and Deep Ellum have mostly died away for the newer uptown areas. If you have gridlock at 3AM in downtown Dallas, it is likely something you don't want to be involved in.

mugofbeer speaks the truth.

Downtown Dallas is dead. Completely. No pulse after dark. No restaurants downtown. Deep Ellum is a shell of its former self.

I'm hoping for a Deep Ellum resurgence, though!

[BigD Misey]

As far as the Core to shore project... i think if they were to completely build it out, that would certainly be exciting, but... i feel there are a couple of things missing that other cities have and contribute to a sustained downtown atmosphere that are desired. I will use my favorite city as an example.

Chicago has so much to offer in its downtown.
When you compare Chitown to BIGD and OKC here are a few things to consider:
1. Corporate presence
2. Industry
3. Infrastructure
4. Accessibility - (Air, train, water, Interstate travel and locality)
5. history & Culture
6. Education
7. Beauty, generally modern and cleanliness
8. Social attractions and events
9. Safety

Chicago has it all and mostly downtown too!
Dallas has most of the 1st 4 and number 8 too. But lacks 5,6 some of 7 and 9. (The buildings and feel of the town is very modern, contemporary) Dallas is CERTAINLY NOT KNOWN for its downtown post secular life, thats for sure! Had they struck a deal with Jerryworld, that likely would have changed, but as it is, its the worst aspect of the city. I do not FEEL safe in most parts of downtown and i think they are working hard to resolve that but have a long way to go. Dallas has only a couple of venues to visit downtown: Dallas World aquarium (top notch!) Nasher Sculpture Center and the grassy knoll, none of which i would travel to at night. (Well maybe the Nasher center, but only with a group). West End isnt what it was a decade ago and Deep Ellum is just about raunchy.
Chicago has patrons on the streets of Mich. Ave until 10-11pm and my wife and i felt safe at almost every moment. The reason: All of the ground floors of the buildings are retail…Stores and Restaurants and people are there!
Dallas has: Amer. Airlines center/Victory plaza and only during games. Neighborhoods like Knox/Henderson, Mockingbird, Addison and the like. But even they are not areas where one would 'roam' or linger from shop to shop. Project 180 will set things up in OKC where downtown can be like Chicago. But this leads me to the missing elements i mentioned at the outset.
OKC is missing 5,6 and 7. Short of moving the museums downtown and building a new large college downtown, what can be done? What would keep visitors returning, visiting and lingering in OKC like with Chicago? Maps 3 is addressing number 7 a little bit with core to shore projects like the new convention center and central park and the river improvements but it has a long way to go. I feel comfortable roaming through bricktown at any time, but not through downtown proper.
If project 180 is successful and most downtown buildings use storefronts for restaurants and shops it will make a HUGE difference! More people would linger in downtown proper and may feel comfortable walking to the Civic Center or Museum of art from the hotels as opposed to driving. The central park in front of the New Convention center will not be enough. I think it should be enclosed on the west side by a line of new mixed use development to give it a safe feeling at night. Even if it is just one block wide and only between the Boulevard and Union station, it would be an emense difference.
I asked myself: What would motivate a person to live in the proposed mixed use apts and condo’s?
If the developers of these mixed use properties in the Core to Shore proposals start small, like they did here in dallas, I think they can inspire change. In Dallas they started with a small stretch of two streets: State and Thomas (off of Mckinney). 3 and 4 story apt and condo’s over retail. A roaring success. That stretch is always bustling. Lo and behold, Mckinney Ave got a shot in the arm and the city has also proposed an over the freeway park that will connect Mckinney Ave & Pearl st. with the Art and Nasher museums. Very walkable from State st.
Next stop…the rest of downtown! But I think the city had to see it in action before they bought in. That may be the case with OKC too!