We always talk about Dallas...

[circuitboard]

Dallas, come's up quite a bit in this forum. I was being curious in the Dallas development forum (basically the OKCTALK of Dallas/ftw) and stumbled upon this development in Fort Worth.....Fort Worth has come along ways, this is a great development, would love to see something like this in OKC. If you click to the 3rd and 4th pages, already has pics of completed projects.

Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum - Fort Worth - West 7th in Cultural District

lol mispelled always in the title, no way to change? =P

[soonerguru]

That's a very cool mixed-use development, even if it is a bit "faux city" a la the "West Village" 'hood in Dallas.

Still, it beats anything happening in this town development-wise.

[Spartan]

7th has some flaws..the Camp Bowie/7th/University 6-way intersection was a bad idea..they could learn from OKC's use of roundabouts for some intersections. FW is doing a LOT of good things though.

7th is very walkable. Remains to be seen how successful the development is since it was just finished. Feels more like Classen Curve, but with residential on top.

No offense to FW, but "Dallas" also refers to them..I know it's not fair.

[mugofbeer]

Geez, I lived in DFW for 13 years and I know of few people in that area who equate Dallas with Ft. Worth. They are cities as different as night and day.

Ft. Worth was quite depressed for a very long time until Charles Tandy (of Radio Shack fame) and Sid Bass bought up blocks of the area and redeveloped it with their own money - kind of a "if you build it, they will come" approach that wasn't feasible to the bankers at the time.

Ft. Worth is also blessed with a handful of very wealthy long-time benefactors on the scale of what Devon and Chesapeake do today.

[progressiveboy]

Geez, I lived in DFW for 13 years and I know of few people in that area who equate Dallas with Ft. Worth. They are cities as different as night and day.

Ft. Worth was quite depressed for a very long time until Charles Tandy (of Radio Shack fame) and Sid Bass bought up blocks of the area and redeveloped it with their own money - kind of a "if you build it, they will come" approach that wasn't feasible to the bankers at the time.

Ft. Worth is also blessed with a handful of very wealthy long-time benefactors on the scale of what Devon and Chesapeake do today.

Agree! Fort Worth is blessed with the Amon Carter Museum and the Kimball Art Museum. They have 5 different museums in their district. They just finished and opened up the new Children's Science Museum, in which I hear great reviews. In addition, the acoustically acclaimed Bass Performance Hall for top notch performances and shows! Their Japanese inspired water gardens and many other cultural gems!

[ourulz2000]

Fort Worth people > Dallas people

[Spartan]

Agree! Fort Worth is blessed with the Amon Carter Museum and the Kimball Art Museum. They have 5 different museums in their district. They just finished and opened up the new Children's Science Museum, in which I hear great reviews. In addition, the acoustically acclaimed Bass Performance Hall for top notch performances and shows! Their Japanese inspired water gardens and many other cultural gems!

Many people don't know this, but the Cultural District in Ft Worth is actually the nation's 2nd largest collection of museum space. 1st is the National Mall in DC. That's just what Ft Worth claims though..and idk how they figure that out. I know that Houston's museums are obviously a lot more prominent than anything in Dallas or Ft Worth, and they're probably a little bit more spread out across a square mile area rather than in a tight, compact core of a few blocks like D/FW.

It's easily acknowledgeable that Ft Worth is a completely different city than Dallas. It's been said that Dallas is the last eastern city and Ft Worth is the first western city, and I tend to agree with that. Dallas proper is becoming more and more like Chicago with its density, its traffic, its skyrocketing home values, its cultural institutions, its universities (SMU, UD, and UTD among others) and its general sense of flashiness. Dallas is a very glitzy, glamorous city. That's not to say that Dallas is becoming Chicago exactly..it's still a very unique place. The only thing that has always and will continue to always characterize Dallas is bigness.. big hair, big skyscrapers, big money, big cars, big SUVs, big steaks, big shopping malls, big trees, big highways, and so on and so forth.

Ft Worth is a city that, unlike Dallas, doesn't forget the fact that it exists here on Earth. Ft Worth has the "aint half bad" version of everything Dallas has. Dallas has SMU, Ft Worth has TCU, Dallas has the Nasher Sculpture Center, Dallas MOA, and incredible new Center for the Performing Arts..Ft Worth has Kimbell, Amon Carter, and Bass Hall. And personally I'd rather take Bass Hall over the starchitecture in the Center for the Performing Arts.

Ft Worth has a lot of cool areas with a lot of momentum, infill going on around TCU, the Trinity River bank in downtown is an area where a development boom has long been a reality unlike the Oklahoma River, big projects like West 7th or Race Street or the old Montgomery Ward building are linking downtown to the Cultural District, and the area just south of downtown with a lot of medical buildings is lighting up with mixed-use development. Then the Ft Worth Stockyards have always been a good postcard.

FW has come a LONG ways, and it doesn't get the credit it deserves. I think the simple fact that everything in FW is always being compared to its Dallas counterpart is a case in point example. Same as OKC has come a LONG ways, and not getting the credit it deserves, still has a lot of work to do in order to look progressive compared to Dallas. FW and OKC are both very much in the shadow of Dallas, and as far as I'm concerned, OKC "feels" just as close to DTD as FW does..that's a curse that makes it hard to do "Big League City" things sometimes. It may also allow for some great Thunder/Mavs rivalry games like last night from what I hear.

[metro]

Wow, impressive development in Fort Worth. Just reminds me how much farther we have to go, even if it is "faux" urban.

[BG918]

This development would fit in very well in Campus Corner, along University Blvd., or in midtown OKC.

[ljbab728]

This development would fit in very well in Campus Corner, along University Blvd., or in midtown OKC.

While the general idea would be nice for Campus Corner, anything of this scale would totally overwhelm that area. It's just too large.

[bombermwc]

Counter to Spartan, I'd take the intersection to a round about any day. Round abouts take up too much valuable space. Yeah, you can make up a little "town square park-ish thing" at each one, but who cares. I'd rather take the density. It's not like they are going to plan on the place having a high amount of car traffic. Obviously they are designing it as pedestrian, not vehicular....park your car in the garage and walk your fat rear to where you're going.

Looks like a really nifty project though. I agree with others that FTW doesn't get the credit it deserves. If you haven't driven on that side of town, you haven't seen the amount of residential cash flow that is heading that way too. FTW proper compared to Dallas proper.....FTW is moving up. I'd much rather live there right now.

[Spartan]

I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that FW is moving up whereas D isn't? Hmm.

I hear what you're saying about roundabouts as opposed to confusing intersections, and although I'm a big roundabout fan I agree in general you have some points..but in this specific instance of 7th/University/Camp Bowie in FW you don't. I would question whether you've ever been to the intersection in fact, considering you suggested it doesn't handle a high amount of traffic.

That is actually an incredibly busy intersection. Camp Bowie is like the NW Expressway, University is like Classen, and West 7th is like NW 23rd.. all converge right there at the same intersection, and it's a mess. As a result of how confusing it is, especially without any lane markings through the middle of the intersection to guide cars, I always see a wreck there and I always get a little bit confused myself.

I like the idea a whole lot of doing a large mixed-use project right there around the high-profile intersection, especially considering the affluent neighborhoods surrounding the area and all of the cultural institutions nearby. But a roundabout would be infinitely better there, similar to the roundabout in Houston's Museum District where Main Street, Montrose Blvd, and Hermann Drive all converge on the edge of Hermann Park. Great setting there.

[circled9]

Why oh why do we always want to keep up with some city in Texas. Why cant we take the lead and let them follow us? Texas should always be considered as Baja Oklahoma.

If we wanted to be like another city, I can certainly think of a lot of cities in the world to copy other than Dallas.

Obviously I am not a big fan of the Longhorns or Cowboys either.

[Spartan]

Unfortunately I think blissful ignorance of Texas is being schizophrenically detached from reality..

[skyrick]

I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that FW is moving up whereas D isn't? Hmm.

I hear what you're saying about roundabouts as opposed to confusing intersections, and although I'm a big roundabout fan I agree in general you have some points..but in this specific instance of 7th/University/Camp Bowie in FW you don't. I would question whether you've ever been to the intersection in fact, considering you suggested it doesn't handle a high amount of traffic.

That is actually an incredibly busy intersection. Camp Bowie is like the NW Expressway, University is like Classen, and West 7th is like NW 23rd.. all converge right there at the same intersection, and it's a mess. As a result of how confusing it is, especially without any lane markings through the middle of the intersection to guide cars, I always see a wreck there and I always get a little bit confused myself.

Don't forget little Bailey Ave at that intersection. With Bailey, Camp Bowie, 7th east and west bound, University north and south bound, that's six streets at the same intersection. For me, Bailey causes the most confusion when trying to turn west at that intersection.

[BDP]

would love to see something like this in OKC.

You gotta talk to OCURA about that. They have had mixed use projects proposed and I don't think they have selected one yet. I guess Legacy sort of fits the mixed use criteria, but it still screams suburban and was severely compromised.

The mayor and city manager pretty much put the breaks on new mixed use in bricktown. Lower Bricktown is pretty much done, unless they decide to rethink the seemingly invaluable surface parking.

At the end of the day, Oklahoma City has chosen to not build new modern mixed use for unknown reasons. To date, it hasn't even really tried. If they develop the park like they have the rest of the core, you may never see it.

[westsidesooner]

It would be nice to see a development like that incorporated into the new core to shore plans. I know they think that would cut into the bricktown "experience" but it wouldnt really have to. They could have a small theatre, or a public market, more stores that would be handy for all the new housing.....drug store, photo store, etc.... and restaurants incorporated into it. From the plans on c2s it looks like they are planning some pretty dense housing on the south and southwest side of c2s.....(south of union station) and all those new residents could use some local establishments. We all know theres not much south of the river now. Or even directly west of the main park and (planned) convention center

[Spartan]

You gotta talk to OCURA about that. They have had mixed use projects proposed and I don't think they have selected one yet. I guess Legacy sort of fits the mixed use criteria, but it still screams suburban and was severely compromised.

The mayor and city manager pretty much put the breaks on new mixed use in bricktown. Lower Bricktown is pretty much done, unless they decide to rethink the seemingly invaluable surface parking.

At the end of the day, Oklahoma City has chosen to not build new modern mixed use for unknown reasons. To date, it hasn't even really tried. If they develop the park like they have the rest of the core, you may never see it.

This is a really good post, BDP. You're spot on about how this city has made the choice to not do mixed-use development.

[mugofbeer]

This is a really good post, BDP. You're spot on about how this city has made the choice to not do mixed-use development.

Has the city made that choice or have no developers stepped up to the plate with a project?

[soonerguru]

Has the city made that choice or have no developers stepped up to the plate with a project?

mug,

AS has been pointed out before -- even in this thread -- OCURA (the city) chose non-mixed use projects over mixed use projects, such as when they approved the abortion The Hill over a nice mixed use concept by Anthony McDermid.

There are other examples.

[Spartan]

Yeah, you can't really say better developers didn't try..

[bombermwc]

Except, Spartan, it appears that they are trying to change the use of the streets here. In essence, trying to tell people that they shouldn't be using their cars. It may currently be a busy intersection for cars, but that doesn't mean that the city is wanting that to continue.

With that many streets intersecting at one place, yeah it's weird, but I'd rather see Bailey closed there and I'd probably convert 7th to a one way or something. Basically, I'd like to see camp and combine into the western side of 7th, and only intersect with university...making into a 4-way instead of 6. There need to be main roads here without all the extra crap at ever block to clog it up. I might would even play a little anti-car here and completely close off the road to car traffic in the district. That side is small enough (just a couple block), to park and walk. That gives the stores SOOOOO many more options on things they can do...and festivals have far more freedom as well.

[Spartan]

That would be worth looking into. I don't think you'd be able to use any more right of way with the way the area is developed with either mixed-use stuff or museums, but I can see the potential for closing off or limiting 7th and getting rid of Bailey, kind of like how badly I want to get rid of E.K. Gaylord. The problem with turning 7th into a pedestrian mall is that I believe that's what they've done with 8th already..7th really just borders the back of the West 7 development.

[David Pollard]

Don't want to be pedantic, but could you please correct the spelling in the title of this thread?

[BDP]

Has the city made that choice or have no developers stepped up to the plate with a project?

The city has made the choice at least twice. The Hill and The Overholser project. Both were chosen over competing mixed use developments. Neither are any where near completion and likely will never be completed as proposed. This is in addition to a mixed use project east of the ballpark that the mayor and city council squashed before it even got out of the idea phase.

So, not only has the city not chosen mixed use projects, it has chosen compromised and, to date, uncompleted projects over proposed mixed use projects.

If I had any hesitation over voting for MAPS3, OCURA is why. All of the MAPS projects have been a success, imo. However, this city has repeatedly failed to fully leverage that success into private developments that really raise the city's quality of life and competitive position through increasing the lifestyle options. I cringe when I drive by the Legacy, Lower Bricktown, the Hill and the old Mercy lot. Those projects have all really failed to fully capitalize on the changes brought to the core by MAPS and are the epitome of OCURA incompetence. Even if they were never compromised, they still weren't even designed with the focus on building an urban community.

Even more than the canal, the park and its surrounding developments will once again have a chance to really create an urban living option in Oklahoma City. But if the same people are making the decisions and enforcing those decisions as to what developments are chosen, then we may miss out on another great opportunity to raise the city's profile.