Public safety #1

[rcjunkie]

RC,

We need the 4 rescue ladders that were axed for an apparent hockey team loan. Correct if I am wrong, but isnt that $ 3.2 million dollars (originally going to purchase 4 new rescue ladders) later to be diverted as a loan to a hockey team, supposed to be paid back to the city with interest.

If in fact that is the case, then why didnt we just loan this money to the hockey team out of the rainy day fund since it is going to be repaid with interest. Then take the money that we were supposed to purchase the new ladders with originally and simply purchase them.

I have read that if we did this, then somehow our bond rating would be affected. We have over $ 85 million dollars in the rainy day fund, over 10% of our whole citys yearly budget. How in the world is a measly $ 3.2 million dollars (that is going to be repaid with interest) going to amount to a hill of beans out of $ 85 million.

I again will restate that all we as a fire and police dept desire is adequate staffing and dependable equipment to meet the needs of the citizens of OKC.
Nothing more and nothing less.

If 65% of the city budget and a dedicated 3/4 cent sales tax cannot get this for public safety, then we definitely need to look at other alternatives as a permanent funding source. Anything less is not in the best interest of the citizens of OKC.

Or as everyone else, (City employees,people in the private sector, including small business owners), make better use of the funding they have, spend it wisely, take better care of what they have, make cuts where possible, etc; etc;

[Larry OKC]

First of all, Public Safety isn't just Police and Fire. Municipal Courts, and Animal Welfare are also part of, and included in, Public Safety, but somehow that fact always seems to get omitted. Secondly, I would like to see how they come up with the 65% number they claim.

Andy, it is true Animal Welfare & Municipal Courts are part of the category, but they are a miniscule amount of the total (4%, see below) so that may be why they aren't mentioned often.

The 65% claim is found in the 09-10 Budget Report (City of Oklahoma City | Budget and Finance) by clicking on the link near the top of the page:

On page 11 (19 of the PDF) there is a chart labeled General Fund Expenditures by Function and gives the following breakdown:

65% = Public Safety
17% = Public Services
9% = Culture & Recreation
9% = General Government

A definition of those categories can be found on pg 55 (64 of the PDF)

"These functions make up 53% of the operating expenditure budget."

Of that, here is the way it gets split up (from various places in the report, sorry but didn't get the pg numbers):

53% = Police ($150,288,322)
43% = Fire ($123,838,174)
1% = Animal Welfare ($3,793,155)
3% = Municipal Courts ($9,437,908)

Not sure why the difference between the initial 65% figure and the later 53% since both seem to be talking about the expenditures??

If not mistaken the above numbers include capital expenditures not just personnel etc. And it is talking about the expenditures, not the various funding sources...General Fund, Dedicated Tax (& the accompanying Use Taxes)

[rcjunkie]

Junkie, one of the problems with you having been in management is that you don't have a clue. Did they give you a crystal ball when you quit? I am just not sure how you have all of the answers about our funding, you were in charge of getting the grass mowed, right?

Your always so quick to turn defensive or belittle my 27 plus years of dedicated service to the City of OKC and it's citizens, anytime I have an opinion that differs from yours.

I have a few questions for you. Is it an inherited or learned trait, a genetic flaw, done of ignorance, done of arrogance, or do you use this to build up your obviously inflated ego, or does it make you feel like the better man ??

I'll admit that during my 27 plus years in the Parks Department that all I did was "cut grass", if you'll admit that all you've done during your career as a fireman is keep those "big red trucks all bright and shiny".

Take care, be safe and God Bless

P.S. if it makes you feel better, go ahead and attack, I'll continue to be the better man and give you that honor.

[Mikemarsh51]

Junkie as I looked back at our responses I laugh. You throw out genetics, learned traits or whatever. Yet you are the one who drops names, lets us know how many friends you have and where they or their wives work. Letting us know how you are privy to all the private information that is talked about.

You throw out some comments about how we need to manage our resources and make a few cuts here and there and all will be well. You are absolutley correct that this thread is about opinion. And my opinion is again you have no clue. If in fact you were the insider, mover and shaker, guy who has everyones ear. You would have been called upon by the Mayor and council to bring your unique skill set to solve the budget crisis. My guess is nobody is calling.

[Mikemarsh51]

Larry OKC, the 3.2 million dollars was loaned to SMG. They are the management company that manages arenas across the country and around the world, the biggest events happen at SMG-managed facilities.

1st Mariner Arena (Baltimore, Maryland)
American Bank Center Arena (Corpus Christi, Texas)
Arena Santiago (Santiago, Chile)
Atlantic City Boardwalk Hall (Atlantic City, New Jersey)
Bank of Kentucky Center (Highland Heights, Kentucky)
BankAtlantic Center (Sunrise, Florida)
Baton Rouge River Center Arena (Baton Rouge, Louisiana)
Big Sandy Superstore Arena (Huntington, West Virginia)
Blue Cross Arena (Rochester, New York)
BOK Center (Tulsa, Oklahoma)
Cabarrus Arena and Events Center (Concord, North Carolina)
Cambria County War Memorial Arena (Johnstown, Pennsylvania)
Canton Memorial Civic Center (Canton, Ohio)
CenturyTel Center Arena (Bossier City, Louisiana)
Coliseo De Puerto Rico (Hato Rey, Puerto Rico)
Covelli Centre (Youngstown, Ohio)
DCU Center Arena (Worcester, Massachusetts)
Diddle Arena (Bowling Green, Kentucky)
Dunkin' Donuts Center (Providence, Rhode Island)
Eastern Kentucky Expo Center (Pikeville, Kentucky)
Five Flags Center Arena (Dubuque, Iowa)
Florence Civic Center (Florence, South Carolina)
Ford Arena (Beaumont, Texas)
Ford Center (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma)
George M. Sullivan Sports Arena (Anchorage, Alaska)
Hershey Centre (Mississauga, Ontario)
Idaho Center Arena (Nampa, Idaho)
INTRUST Bank Arena (Wichita, Kansas)
Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena (Jacksonville, Florida)
John A. Carlson Center (Fairbanks, Alaska)
John Paul Jones Arena (Charlottesville, Virginia)
K-Rock Centre (Kingston, Ontario)
Kansas Coliseum (Wichita, Kansas)
Koenig-Pilsener Arena (Oberhausen, Germany)
Landon Arena (Topeka, Kansas)
Laredo Entertainment Center (Laredo, Texas)
Leeds Arena (Manchester, United Kingdom)
Long Beach Arena (Long Beach, California)
Lucas County Arena (Toledo, Ohio)
Manchester Evening News Arena (Manchester, United Kingdom)
Mellon Arena (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
Metroradio Arena (Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom)
Mid-America Center Arena (Council Bluffs, Iowa)
Mobile Civic Center (Mobile, Alabama)
Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum (Uniondale, New York)
Nationwide Arena (Columbus, Ohio)
New Orleans Arena (New Orleans, Louisiana)
North Charleston Coliseum (North Charleston, South Carolina)
Odyssey Arena (Belfast, Northern Ireland)
Oracle Arena (Oakland, California)
Oslo Spektrum (Oslo, Norway)
Paul E. Tsongas Arena (Lowell, Massachusetts)
Pensacola Civic Center (Pensacola, Florida)
Peoria Arena (Peoria, Illinois)
Pershing Auditorium (Lincoln, Nebraska)
Petersen Events Center (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
Rabobank Arena (Bakersfield, California)
Reliant Arena (Houston, Texas)
Richmond Coliseum (Richmond, Virginia)
Roberts Stadium (Evansville, Indiana)
Save Mart Center (Fresno, California)
Selland Arena (Fresno, California)
ShoWare Center at Kent (Kent, Washington)
Silver Spurs Arena (Kissimmee, Florida)
Sioux Falls Arena (Sioux Falls, South Dakota)
Sovereign Center (Reading, Pennsylvania)
The Arena at Gwinnett Center (Duluth, Georgia)
THE ARENA at The David L. Williams Southeastern KY Ag & Expo Complex (Corbin, Kentucky)
The Arena at the Don Taft University Center (Fort Lauderdale, Florida)
The Arena at the Dow Event Center (Saginaw, Michigan)
The Forum (Inglewood, California)
Times Union Center (Albany, New York)
Van Andel Arena (Grand Rapids, Michigan)
Verizon Wireless Arena (Manchester, New Hampshire)
Wachovia Arena at Casey Plaza (Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania)
Wolstein Center (Cleveland, Ohio)

They are a world wide company. I can't believe that they needed that money from the city to make the upgrades. I also think that maybe Bob Funk should have made them the loan or paid for the upgrades himself since he will own the team.

[rcjunkie]

Junkie as I looked back at our responses I laugh. You throw out genetics, learned traits or whatever. Yet you are the one who drops names, lets us know how many friends you have and where they or their wives work. Letting us know how you are privy to all the private information that is talked about.

You throw out some comments about how we need to manage our resources and make a few cuts here and there and all will be well. You are absolutley correct that this thread is about opinion. And my opinion is again you have no clue. If in fact you were the insider, mover and shaker, guy who has everyones ear. You would have been called upon by the Mayor and council to bring your unique skill set to solve the budget crisis. My guess is nobody is calling.

Thanks for your humble opinion, good luck on rebuilding the ego.
Remember, look a the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely, just like I'm sure you do at home!!

Got to go, phones ringing, it might be Mick or Chief Marrs!!

Take care, Be Safe and God Bless

[Larry OKC]

Larry OKC, the 3.2 million dollars was loaned to SMG. ... They are a world wide company. I can't believe that they needed that money from the city to make the upgrades. I also think that maybe Bob Funk should have made them the loan or paid for the upgrades himself since he will own the team.

OK, now I am confused (do you have a link by chance?) SMG manges the Cox (and Ford) for the City so in the City is loaning itself the money and has to be paid back? If it is a loan and the City is going to be paid back, at least that is preferred over just giving the money to them (doesn't help the Fire truck situation though). Why would the manager of the arena make the upgrades and not the owner (the City)? I agree that Funk should be paying for the upgrades but the precedent has now been set with the Thunder and owners of these teams aren't going to be paying.

[Larry OKC]

Wow, this does get a bet convoluted...the City owns the Cox, leases it to the "Authority" (a City entity) who in turn subleases it to SMG (who manages it for the City).

They are "borrowing" from themselves, $3,200,000 from the City and Schools Capital Projects Use Tax Fund (MAPS for Kids Use Tax) to be paid back over a period of 10 years (partially through a $2 seat tax on tickets sold).

But this all may be moot...

Oklahoma City Council wants new hockey team (Journal Record 12/16/09)

The proposed agreement includes a five-year lease with three-year renewals, and commits the city to about $4.5 million in improvements to the Cox Convention Center. But city council’s approval requires that Prodigal confirm an NHL team no later than Dec. 31

It is 16 days past that deadline and haven't seen any announcement on a confirmed (signed contract) AHL team.

[OKCGUY3]

There is only ONE Rescue Ladder that is operable south of the river! It is at SW 29th and Eastern. There are supposed to be 4. Whay isn't the media asking any questions???? What happened to all of the "things are great, the firefighters are overreacting and just wanting a raise" talk that was being shoveled out prior to the Maps vote? I wouldn't stay in any structure over two stories, no ladders to reach you in an emergency. The heavy tanker at station 33 is out of service. Hope no one out that way has a fire that requires more than 500 gallons of water. Many Engines in reserve equipment that is sub-par. More Rescue Ladders on the North side out of service. It is amazing that our great city is OK with ****ty fire protection!

[kevinpate]

There is only ONE Rescue Ladder that is operable south of the river! It is at SW 29th and Eastern. There are supposed to be 4. Whay isn't the media asking any questions???? What happened to all of the "things are great, the firefighters are overreacting and just wanting a raise" talk that was being shoveled out prior to the Maps vote? I wouldn't stay in any structure over two stories, no ladders to reach you in an emergency. The heavy tanker at station 33 is out of service. Hope no one out that way has a fire that requires more than 500 gallons of water. Many Engines in reserve equipment that is sub-par. More Rescue Ladders on the North side out of service. It is amazing that our great city is OK with ****ty fire protection!

Just curious. When was the last time the media was invited out for a press conference about equipment status, or an informal, no pun intended, fireside chat with the chief, union president, concerned citizen group. Or are such direct communications to media not permitted, all activity of NTM to the contrary. Not picking, not ribbing, just asking.

[OKCGUY3]

Not sure about the media involvement with the Fire Chief, Union President, etc...Not privy.

[andy157]

Just curious. When was the last time the media was invited out for a press conference about equipment status, or an informal, no pun intended, fireside chat with the chief, union president, concerned citizen group. Or are such direct communications to media not permitted, all activity of NTM to the contrary. Not picking, not ribbing, just asking.

KP, if my memory is correct, about 6 weeks ago the Union brought attention to the deplorable condition, and dilapidated state, of Fire Station # 7 to the media and the public, causing Couch, and the Fire Chief to have the come-aparts. Sadly, until someone gets injured, or worse, dies due to faulty run down equipment then from the City's perspective, it's all good.

[rcjunkie]

The title of this thread is Public Safety, which includes Police/Fire/Animal Control/Municipal Courts, there are a few that feel OKC's Public Safety is adequately funded (myself included), and the only ones claiming their underfunded is the few on here that are members of the OKC Fire Department. In my opinion, it sound's/appears to be more about sour grapes and want--want--want and not entirely about need.

[kevinpate]

KP, if my memory is correct, about 6 weeks ago the Union brought attention to the deplorable condition, and dilapidated state, of Fire Station # 7 to the media and the public, causing Couch, and the Fire Chief to have the come-aparts. Sadly, until someone gets injured, or worse, dies due to faulty run down equipment then from the City's perspective, it's all good.

Andy, forgive if my memory is spotty, but wasn't that the capitol hill area and didn't it come about as one of the last pushes prior to the maps3 vote?

Sorry I wasn't more clear. Since Maps vote came and went, there are comments reported here about failed inspections, inspections put on hold, canceled purchases, limited equipment availability for major sections of the city, etc.

I'm not picking, but from an outsider's perspective, most everything pre Dec. 8 was vote related. viable and non-viable arguments alike get lost, or even discounted or dismissed in the short memories once the votes get counted.

But most of what I reference above is post election. Y'all ain't likely to ever be involved in anything for me personally, but I do have friends in your coverage zones. Hearing about failed inspections, canceled ones, equip shortages and canceled equip sounds like a story all its own to me.

But it doesn't seem to me to be getting out there in anything resembling an official or even an unofficial but nonetheless organized manner. Perhaps it should is all I'm trying to note.

[Mikemarsh51]

Junkie as always you are absolutley correct, we just want, want, want and were mad we lost the Maps3 vote and don't forget it's all about our ego too.

[Mikemarsh51]

Larry OKC, I typed SMG in Yahoo and went right to it. Amazing that what appears to be a multi-national, multi-million if not Billion dollar a year company is getting a 4.5 million dollar loan from our city leaders.

[rcjunkie]

Junkie as always you are absolutely correct, we just want, want, want and were mad we lost the Maps vote and don't forget it's all about our ego too.

Glad you've finally seen the light my little firefighter buddy.
Maybe I would have a different opinion if all of this concern had been voiced prior to MAPS3, coincidence--I think not.

"Spend wisely and cut where you can"

Again, thats my opinion.

[Wambo36]

Maybe I would have a different opinion if all of this concern had been voiced prior to MAPS3, coincidence--I think not.

You need to realize that the MAPS3 election is over. Time to start basing your decisions and opinions on something else. Just a thought.

[Larry OKC]

Larry OKC, I typed SMG in Yahoo and went right to it. Amazing that what appears to be a multi-national, multi-million if not Billion dollar a year company is getting a 4.5 million dollar loan from our city leaders.

I can see where you are thinking SMG is getting the loan (really not trying to get bogged down in SMG's role in this but they seem to be nothing more than a middle-man for the City) but what I read in the City documents concerning the $4.5M Cox improvements, the "loan" isn't really going to SMG per se, it is being "loaned" by the City to the "Authority" (Oklahoma City Public Property Authority, a City entity). In fact, SMG isn't even mentioned as a "party". The agreement is entitled:

Cox Convention Center Renovation Agreement among the City of Oklahoma City, the Oklahoma City Public Property Authority, and Prodical Hockey LLC.

Where SMG seems to come into the picture is they are just the management company running the day-to-day operations of the Cox (like they do the Ford) and are the ones being authorized by the City to negotiate the lease with the owners of the hockey team (with Council's final approval). And they are responsible for collecting the $2 seat tax and making sure the Authority/City(MAPS for Kids Use tax fund) is paid back. At least that is my reading of it.

But like I said, this may all be a moot point since the lease improvements deal was only valid if an actual team was signed to contract by December 31 of 2009. No team, no deal so would presume that the $3.2M is back in the MAPS for Kids Use Tax Fund and still available for its original "intent".

The obvious problem I see here, is just like the infamous MAPS 3 Resolution of Intent (besides being non-binding) is the Council's intent can change on a whim. Wouldn't it be interesting if a anti-MAPS 3 Mayor got elected in the next round? (Very unlikely given Cornett's high approval rating). Of the current Council, there is already one confirmed and vocal Councilperson who is anti-MAPS 3. Two other pro-MAPS 3 councilperson's wards actually voted against it. That potentially brings the Council to 4 votes that could go against some of the projects and it would only take 1 more to switch things up. This doesn't take into account any changes on the Council itself. Things could easily turn during the next 7.75 years. Should be interesting to watch it play out.

But I digress...

The "no team, no improvements" plays against the City's claim in those documents that the improvements are for other things and are needed anyway. The way the language is written, hockey and specifically, an AHL team just seems to be incidental. Hmmm, where have I heard that before? LOL

[andy157]

I can see where you are thinking SMG is getting the loan (really not trying to get bogged down in SMG's role in this but they seem to be nothing more than a middle-man for the City) but what I read in the City documents concerning the $4.5M Cox improvements, the "loan" isn't really going to SMG per se, it is being "loaned" by the City to the "Authority" (Oklahoma City Public Property Authority, a City entity). In fact, SMG isn't even mentioned as a "party". The agreement is entitled:

Cox Convention Center Renovation Agreement among the City of Oklahoma City, the Oklahoma City Public Property Authority, and Prodical Hockey LLC.

Where SMG seems to come into the picture is they are just the management company running the day-to-day operations of the Cox (like they do the Ford) and are the ones being authorized by the City to negotiate the lease with the owners of the hockey team (with Council's final approval). And they are responsible for collecting the $2 seat tax and making sure the Authority/City(MAPS for Kids Use tax fund) is paid back. At least that is my reading of it.

But like I said, this may all be a moot point since the lease improvements deal was only valid if an actual team was signed to contract by December 31 of 2009. No team, no deal so would presume that the $3.2M is back in the MAPS for Kids Use Tax Fund and still available for its original "intent".

The obvious problem I see here, is just like the infamous MAPS 3 Resolution of Intent (besides being non-binding) is the Council's intent can change on a whim. Wouldn't it be interesting if a anti-MAPS 3 Mayor got elected in the next round? (Very unlikely given Cornett's high approval rating). Of the current Council, there is already one confirmed and vocal Councilperson who is anti-MAPS 3. Two other pro-MAPS 3 councilperson's wards actually voted against it. That potentially brings the Council to 4 votes that could go against some of the projects and it would only take 1 more to switch things up. This doesn't take into account any changes on the Council itself. Things could easily turn during the next 7.75 years. Should be interesting to watch it play out.

But I digress...

The "no team, no improvements" plays against the City's claim in those documents that the improvements are for other things and are needed anyway. The way the language is written, hockey and specifically, an AHL team just seems to be incidental. Hmmm, where have I heard that before? LOL

Thats what I find most troubling about Municipal Government, a deal is never really a deal.

[andy157]

Andy, forgive if my memory is spotty, but wasn't that the capitol hill area and didn't it come about as one of the last pushes prior to the maps3 vote?

Sorry I wasn't more clear. Since Maps vote came and went, there are comments reported here about failed inspections, inspections put on hold, canceled purchases, limited equipment availability for major sections of the city, etc.

I'm not picking, but from an outsider's perspective, most everything pre Dec. 8 was vote related. viable and non-viable arguments alike get lost, or even discounted or dismissed in the short memories once the votes get counted.

But most of what I reference above is post election. Y'all ain't likely to ever be involved in anything for me personally, but I do have friends in your coverage zones. Hearing about failed inspections, canceled ones, equip shortages and canceled equip sounds like a story all its own to me.

But it doesn't seem to me to be getting out there in anything resembling an official or even an unofficial but nonetheless organized manner. Perhaps it should is all I'm trying to note.

Point well taken, your right. I hope for your friends sake that they will not require the services of a Rescue Ladder anytime soon. Especially if they live South.

[rcjunkie]

You need to realize that the MAPS3 election is over. Time to start basing your decisions and opinions on something else. Just a thought.

Wambo, look at post #93, your buddy mikemarsh is the one that keeps bringing up MAPS, I just respond when he does, might want to remind him. Just a thought.

My opinions are based on facts and statements received from others. One fact, is that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of OKC's employees, yet they are allotted 65% of the General Fund Budget.

Remember: look at the budget, cut where you can, spend wisely.

[andy157]

Wambo, look at post #93, your buddy mikemarsh is the one that keeps bringing up MAPS, I just respond when he does, might want to remind him. Just a thought.

My opinions are based on facts and statements received from others. One fact, is that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of OKC's employees, yet they are allotted 65% of the General Fund Budget.

Remember: look at the budget, cut where you can, spend wisely.

The employees aren't allotted 65% of the General Fund budget.

[andy157]

Wambo, look at post #93, your buddy mikemarsh is the one that keeps bringing up MAPS, I just respond when he does, might want to remind him. Just a thought.

My opinions are based on facts and statements received from others. One fact, is that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of OKC's employees, yet they are allotted 65% of the General Fund Budget.

Remember: look at the budget, cut where you can, spend wisely.

You say for a fact that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of the total City Employees. WRONG. Just using Police (1,303) and Fire (984) and not counting the Animal Welfare and Court employees those 2 departments alone account for 2,287 of the 4,455. Thats 51.3%, not 45%. When you add in the A.W. and M.C. employees now we're talking closer to 53%, but thats not a fact, only a guess.

[rcjunkie]

The employees aren't allotted 65% of the General Fund budget.

The operating budget comes from the General Fund, I assume that pubic safety employees receive a paycheck every other Friday (some on Thursday with direct deposit), plus their negotiated benefits. Which by-the-way, Public Safety budget was increased by over 5 million this fiscal year to cover wage increases and health insurance increases.