CoCo Flow coming to Bricktown?

[Steve]

Alright... what's happening here is that it's difficult for even people like myself who are paid to track this day to day to keep up with the ups and downs of development, and I'm sure it's even more difficult for those who aren't.
So here's a quickie in the interim:
- Yes, Gary Cotton did have a crack team set up for the Cotton Exchange. But there was one weakness: Gary Cotton. Cotton was not a developer, and still isn't. And his plan required some heavy duty financing at a time when the banking industry was starting a freefall.
- The Candy Factory went all office (first floor will be retail) because that's where the money was for the developers. It's still business at the end of the day.
- Harding & Shelton: this one is still proceeding, but is scaled back, again due to the economy. They are remodeling the buildings that face the canal, something Spartan is seeking. But the underground parking and canal extension, for now, are on hold. Unlike Cotton's project, this one would have happened in full for sure if the economy hadn't nosedived.
- Lofts... I don't see large scale for-sale condos or lofts being developed anytime in the near future anywhere downtown. But we might see apartments...
- CoCo Flow: the space was empty for one year, not two. Go there tonight and report back on what you see (big hint here).
- Bricktown Holiday Inn. It's on hold as are hotel projects nationwide. The hotel industry is in its worst slump in decades.
- Overall leasing is UP in Bricktown. To be blunt, Spartan, you're operating on year-old information. That's not to say it's all rosy. French Hickman and Gary Cotton's properties stand out as being embarassments to observers I've spoken to.
Bricktown isn't perfect and it still has problems. But your prognosis is a bit too bleak.

[lhendrix]

Just got back from Bricktown. Coco Flow is Open. I had an amazing pecan truffle and a coffee drink especially made for me by Gene that was wonderfu. The store looks awesome, and chocolate production is underway. The great thing is you can observe the chocolate being made thru the glass windows surounding the candy making area.
The interior of the space has been upgraded and Gene and Kim have definitly added their personal touches. It was along time coming but worth the wait. Not sure what their hours are but I am sure they will be there late this evening. They have done an excellent job and worked very hard, especially since they had the space rented since April and are just now getting open. It took alot of hard work to pay rent when you aren't open. They breath new life into the Mideke and that part of Bricktown.
Hopefully next we will see living in the Mideke. One of the best views in Bricktown.
Happy New Year to all and don't forget to get your chocolate fix at Coco Flow in the Mideke Supply Company Building.

[Steve]

Congratulations Lynnette. I know it's a lot easier for folks to log in online and say "why isn't it all great and done now" vs actually getting deals done. When one considers the Bricktown Candy Company, Coco Flow and what's yet to come, Bricktown is definitely going to have a sweet tooth.

[lhendrix]

Try to get to Bricktown tonight if at all possible. If it is anything like last year there were thousands of people walking around. It was unbelievable. The hustle and bustle and they way our entire city handled it was just awesome. The crowds, the carriages, the the sound of the horses shoes hitting the bricks, the street lamps the entire atmosphere is an experience to remember. It reminds me how Great our city truly is and that prosperity and true urban living is well on its way. The tourism reminds me that we are a destination not a happenstance. Bricktown, the Historic 6 city block area of red Brick Warehouses and some brick streets is an amazing place with a true nostalgic feel. . I can't wait until I can call Bricktown Home.
For those of you who brave the cold bundle up warm and come on down and see Bricktown in one of its best moments. New Year Eve in Bricktown is the so awesome.
Hopefully see you there. The common area of the Mideke is open come on in and sit a spell and warm up. Watch the chocolate being made. enjoy...
Stay warm, stay safe Happy New Year to all.

[gen70]

Ysme

[Spartan]

Alright... what's happening here is that it's difficult for even people like myself who are paid to track this day to day to keep up with the ups and downs of development, and I'm sure it's even more difficult for those who aren't.
So here's a quickie in the interim:
- Yes, Gary Cotton did have a crack team set up for the Cotton Exchange. But there was one weakness: Gary Cotton. Cotton was not a developer, and still isn't. And his plan required some heavy duty financing at a time when the banking industry was starting a freefall.
- The Candy Factory went all office (first floor will be retail) because that's where the money was for the developers. It's still business at the end of the day.
- Harding & Shelton: this one is still proceeding, but is scaled back, again due to the economy. They are remodeling the buildings that face the canal, something Spartan is seeking. But the underground parking and canal extension, for now, are on hold. Unlike Cotton's project, this one would have happened in full for sure if the economy hadn't nosedived.
- Lofts... I don't see large scale for-sale condos or lofts being developed anytime in the near future anywhere downtown. But we might see apartments...
- CoCo Flow: the space was empty for one year, not two. Go there tonight and report back on what you see (big hint here).
- Bricktown Holiday Inn. It's on hold as are hotel projects nationwide. The hotel industry is in its worst slump in decades.
- Overall leasing is UP in Bricktown. To be blunt, Spartan, you're operating on year-old information. That's not to say it's all rosy. French Hickman and Gary Cotton's properties stand out as being embarassments to observers I've spoken to.
Bricktown isn't perfect and it still has problems. But your prognosis is a bit too bleak.

I realize for-sale residential is going anywhere for a while, I was suggesting some loft apartments. Rental units, such as The Montgomery or 5th Street Lofts. Bricktown has always had pent-up demand for lofts, from the days of Neal Horton and Don Karchmer, and has yet to add ANY lofts that are commercially available..over the 25 years or so that Bricktown has been a growing hotspot on the radar.

And you're right, I'm absolutely operating off of year-old information. I don't have any inside connections, I don't talk to people who are doing stuff anymore, I only get to know what is reported on. Most times when I head home to take a break from school I am surprised at how far everything has come. This time I just expected a little more, or maybe I've gotten overly used to a real estate climate where everything is still a go for the most part.

And that's not to blame you or anyone else in the press, perhaps there hasn't really been anything official enough to actually report on--aside from the proprietors of CoCo Flow doing an interview and then asking to not get any attention in the media.

I realize the reason Ainsworth and Moore switched to top floor-only for lofts after saying they would have several floors of lofts was because the money was there. I am not an economist and I have no idea which would be more lucrative..I know you could probably charge quite a premium for lofts in Bricktown, but new office space in Bricktown commands high rents as well. I'm just saying--Bricktown's languishing at the moment is probably due to a lack of rooftops in the area.

Nobody really lives in Bricktown. There are probably around a hundred people that have been added in the last year around downtown living in newly finished units in other areas, so you can tack that onto a small existing downtown population. It's not enough to support much retail, and for the most part Bricktown has had to stop relying on suburbanites flowing into Bricktown because these people with cars perceive a parking problem..and I would argue more of them are going to MidTown and other neighborhoods these days. So with this in mind, the difference in lofts and offices really comes down to what's best for the district. Just getting residential established in Bricktown at this point would go a long ways towards helping the district overcome the drought it's been in.

Oh and by the way, top academic wordsmiths have instituted a ban on blaming everything under the sun on the economy. Likewise, the phrase, "in these economic times," has now been banned. We'll have to find another scapegoat for why people can't get off downtown projects that aren't condo..

Wordsmiths, avoid these words.. | Reuters

[Steve]

Spartan, I understand your disappointment...
Top academic wordsmiths aren't living in the real world (in all likelihood they're living on college campuses where they're only just now about to be hit with budget cuts that will really hurt).
I know of developers who have invested a lot of money getting projects to construction design stage and would file for building permits today if only they could get financing. These projects were not in Bricktown, but within a stone's throw.
The banking industry is a mess, and combined with some draconian new FHA rules on condo mortgages, the economic crash is indeed shutting down downtown residential development.
I guess we're just seeing two different things. I go to Bricktown these days and see ACM students day and night. I see more retail than before. I see some property owners beginning to fix up their canal front buildings, finally realizing the day of the sweet flip is over and that they need to find tenants that might not be a Ruth's Chris Steakhouse. I'm seeing new businesses opening despite the economy.
Will some of them fail? You bet - Bricktown still has its share of restaurants and clubs whose owners are foolish enough to think Bricktown is a sure thing. But others seem to be faring well.
Before you dismiss Bricktown retail, visit Put a Cork in It, the Red Dirt Emporium, and the Bricktown Candy Company. Before you dismiss the progress of redevelopment, take a look at the Candy Factory and the Banjo Museum.

[lhendrix]

Bricktown will have more residential very soon. As Steve points out the banking industry is in a mess. And to top that off the building in Bricktown are so old they have to be brought up to code to develope the top floors. For example the Mideke has to have a second fire escape built at the cost of around a 250,000. Funding for projects such as that are hard to secure with local banks and to my knowledge there is no type of funding to help investors who have sunk everything they have and then some into Bricktown. I have asked around for information on Grants for historicial preservation, Loans with low interest or any other assistance out there. Basically if you purchase a building in Bricktown you are on your own. Thereis no government assistance. Not to mention the city cuts no one slack, property taxes are sky high, BID tax is added onto that. You do the math. It is a catch 22 when it comes to developing some of the old building especially if you aren't independently wealthy and trying to develope. It takes time for building owners to pay for projects from their hip pocket. People who are impatient with the developing time line might understand basically Bricktown is on its own. We can't even get the city to address the disrepair of the Gas Street Lamps which are so much a part of Bricktowns Atmosphere. We were told they were a "Pandoras Box." Installed from what I have been told by Bricktown Association,not sure how they were paid for or any terms, I do know ONG has spare parts and they were involved but today they have been neglected and don't work. There is much to address in getting and keeping Bricktown in shape I do wish the Street Lamp issues were resolved and they all could be lit. They add so much atmosphere. Bricktown i(the orginal six block area of Red Brick Warehouses) is on the move but it takes time, money and patience.
It will be worth the wait.

Coco Flow was open New Years Eve and a huge hit. They were customers in and out all evening, people hanging in the common area of the Mideke. The atmosphere as very warm and inviting.
Hope to see more "Mom and Pop stores go in.

[Steve]

Lynette, I think it helps folks a lot to hear this and see the other side. It also seems to me that with Bricktown being a huge net contributor to the downtown tax increment financing district (and Core to Shore being a huge net draw), it shouldn't be difficult to get the city to use a small fraction of TIF to pay for the gas lights.

[LakeEffect]

Lynette, I think it helps folks a lot to hear this and see the other side. It also seems to me that with Bricktown being a huge net contributor to the downtown tax increment financing district (and Core to Shore being a huge net draw), it shouldn't be difficult to get the city to use a small fraction of TIF to pay for the gas lights.

I don't think the gas lights are historically accurate, so should we even bother? Why not just make sure we have working (electric) street lights? Something to think about...

[lhendrix]

I agree the as lights aren't historically accurate but they look awesome and I am sure there is a huge financial investment in them as well. The gas lights just add to the atmosphere of Bricktown. Keeping them and restoring the broken ones would definitly be far less expensive than removing and replacing. Perhaps the existing lights could be converted to Electricic not sure on that . Definitly ONG would be willing to work with whomever accepts responsibility for the lamps So far no one accepts responsibility. Many property owners would be willing to take care of their own even pay the gas if we just knew what was in the "Pandora's Box Exactly." ONG was kind enough to repair the one at the Corner of Main and Oklahoma after last years huge ice storm. It doesn't light up but it has been repaired and the broken glass replaced. ONG purchased inventory to keep these lights going and then there was some sort of issue and I guess things just go put on the back burner. I myself would like to see someone take responsibility for the lights to make sure they are nice and working. Again I think property owners and business owners would consider being a part of this, information is very sketchy. The ONG official I spoke with was very informative and supportative though.

Gary is fixing to light up our Alley and take responsibility for getting it in decent shape. What we must remember in Bricktown is our alleys are also Streets. People use them as walk ways and cut thrus driving. Some of them look bad and downright trashy. Hopefully with the New Year things will continue to change and Bricktown will be better with each passing day.

[Steve]

The gas lights have been a part of Bricktown now for 30 years. Who is to say they are not a part of Bricktown's history now? Point is, the city has had an intriguing approach to how it allocates TIF funds. I'm hearing concerns about this both with Bricktown and Automobile Alley.

[lhendrix]

I think the term "in these Economic times" is definitly a good term to use and with no disrespect to the acadamic wordsmiths I think the term fits the situation the economy is in. The term In these Economic times is a realstic term and if the wordsmiths have banned it as blaming everything on the economy I suggest the wordsmiths study the economy alittle more. Mark Snead, Economist for the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City and lead office of the Denver Branch of the Federal Reserve (Mark is formerly the director of the OSU Economic Research department) would disagree with the wordsmiths. These are tough economic times and there are many things to blame on the economy and wordsmiths who think this term as an excuse should maybe take a course in Economics. Tough economic times are here and going to stay for awhile and have an impact on all aspects of our lives. Thats a reality not an excuse.

[Spartan]

Why don't you go out to Deer Creek or Edmond and tell me that "these economic times" dictate the economy.. It's called lacking the imagination, belief, or dedication that downtown can develop further.

What is reality and what is excuse?

The excuse is that the economy is the reason projects aren't happening, not the ability of developers to get projects off or willingness of people to take a chance.

The reality is that development always happens. Nothing is ever going to cause a complete development shutdown in OKC. Even in the late 80s when OKC was a lot worse off than right now, stuff barely still got through.

The excuse is that, because of "these economic times," development in downtown is at a standstill and virtually impossible.

The reality is that federal lending rules are making it more difficult to get lending on residential condo projects no matter what market you are, sort of punishing areas that showed restraint during the bubble.

The excuse is that the same rules that apply to residential projects apply to everything. Have suburban homebuilders been affected by these lending changes? What does having condo units pre-signed for have to do with retail?

The reality is that some retailers have frozen expansion, others haven't, most are beginning to reconsider expansion. That, and that the suburban homebuilders are building as rapidly as ever.

This has been like a quarter of a football game where downtown keeps getting shutout and turning the ball over to the suburbs.

[Steve]

Spartan, Deer Creek is blessed with real estate comps but even there development has slowed down. I know of brand new shopping centers - nice ones - that are empty in nw OKC and Edmond. And ask Jeff Speck if suburban homebuilders are building as rapidly as ever. That's a false statement, plain and simple. It's wrong.
I've been to Deer Creek and development there is slowing as well. Spartan, with all due respect, I've got to ask: before you judge downtown developers, how many of them have you spoken to person to person? If none, with all due respect, your grasp of reality vs. excuse is questionable.

[Spartan]

Yeah, also with all due respect, that was the response I was expecting next..

[bluedogok]

There is nothing really "new" going on in Downtown Austin either, the only things going up at the moment is what was already funded prior to the credit collapse. There are projects that were announced prior that are "still going" but at a snails pace because they can't get the next step financing at the moment. There is also abundant commercial vacancy in Austin, not in Downtown but in Austin overall and that affects developers because most lenders look at overall vacancy since their projects are competing against the whole metro area and not just one particular area.

It is only going to get worse because since most banks are tied together much tighter now than they were 25 years ago, lending overall is tighter. When the oil bust happened it was much more of a local banking market and that hurt OKC (and other oil oriented areas) but didn't hurt the rest of the nation as much. Now with everything so tied together lending in relatively healthy areas is affected by the unhealthy areas. We have quite a few projects that look good, the pro forma could work even with interest rates/fees and they still can't get money.

Right now commercial lending hasn't had it's big bust yet, most development loans are going to start coming due soon and most will not be able to refinance because of the credit squeeze and lowered values. I am afraid it is going to get worse before it gets better.

The reality is no one develops with their own money, they develop with investors money or loans and most of them are sitting on the sidelines hoarding because they are unsure of what is going to happen next in both the financial markets and in politics. The political is reality because the gov't tends to be reactionary instead of proactive when it comes to rules and regulations and investors are spooked about what is going to come out of Washington next, so of course they penalize areas that didn't crater because they have to do something about the places that did and most of those are higher populated areas. Part of the problem is investors themselves and when things are going great they throw money at any scheme that has the slightest potential of making money and then when the bottom drops out they panic and hoard. The money is not flowing and that is typical of the boom/bust cycles that all economies go through. This is nothing new and it will take awhile for everything to shake out, those of us who have been through them before understand this and having patience is the about only thing that you can do about it.

[gamecock]

Wife and I stopped by CoCo Flow this evening at 5:15PM; unfortunately, they were closed. I guess we should have checked the hours, but Saturday evening seemed like a safe bet.

[jbrown84]

Spartan, do you have proof that suburban development is happening as rapidly as it was before the economic downturn?

[Steve]

I'm withdrawing from this discussion because quite frankly, I like Spartan and I think he's got a great blog and I don't want this to end up with a debate anything but that. But Spartan, hopefully we can still get together before you leave so we can compare notes in person. Sorry I wasn't able to swing it earlier. Debates are cool - we're challenging each other's perspectives and that's always healthy.

[lhendrix]

Spartan,

I looked up the word Excuse in Webster. The word used as a verb means to remove blame from or make apology for. I just don't see many Bricktown owners making excuses for why they aren't continuing development. Most have real concerns and a real concern is not an excuse. Developers are fighting daily battles with things you have no information about. First and foremost we should be giving those guys who have stuck their neck out and spent large sums of money to purchase Bricktown Property a huge applaus. If it were an easy task everyone would be doing it. Fact is most people who own property in Bricktown want to Develope and would develope if they had the funding secured... Thats not an excuse that is a fact. Business owners financially strong on paper are even having difficulty in these "tough economic times.That is reality not excuse.
People who stick their neck out and spend millions are definitly not excuse makers. They are doers. Sometimes projects such as a major development takes time.. You should give these guys credit where credit is due. Until you have walked a mile in someones shoes it is really hard to know what really goes on. Securing funding for development s is hard. Banks want you to jump thru hoops to obtain financing, City wants you to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars(which most would if loans were easily obtainable) just to get your development going. The city cuts no one any slack and offers no kind of financing assistance for Bricktown Development or any type of tax break. Unless you are some big name such as Bass Pro. As you probably know, Stimulus money has gone down river. It is ashame we have so much in Bricktown and no federal or state loan assistance to take it to the next level. Our historicial district is well on the way to being saved but the journey is long the price is costly. Those who work hard, plan and do alittle each day will be very successful. Please Spartan, take a look from the developers eyes and you might just see when banks aren't lending and people arent independently wealthy things take time.

[Steve]

One final note (I know, I promised to withdraw): there are some developers in Bricktown who really don't know what they're doing and even in the best of times they weren't getting anything done and still wouldn't if the banks were flush with cash to lend. I won't name names on such individuals, but they're out there. But there are plenty of others that would be further along if not for the evaporation of financing.

[Spartan]

I'm withdrawing from this discussion because quite frankly, I like Spartan and I think he's got a great blog and I don't want this to end up with a debate anything but that. But Spartan, hopefully we can still get together before you leave so we can compare notes in person. Sorry I wasn't able to swing it earlier. Debates are cool - we're challenging each other's perspectives and that's always healthy.

No no not at all Steve! People who know me know that I probably enjoy debates way too much. I mean let's be honest, anyone who's not an insider but considers themselves a close follower of Downtown--at least 70% of what they know comes from you, Steve, if not more.

I just can't help but drive past the corner of Reno and Lincoln and see that sign up right now that says "Financing Provided by Kirkpatrick Bank" and shake my head and think of all of the other great projects that I wish any bank would have provided financing for.

And it would be even more interesting to see what bank was smart enough to put financing up for The Hill, and see what projects they've turned down for financing. But you can never get that deep without a lot of insider information at the bank, so we'll never know.

By the way I did swing by CoCo Flow tonight before they closed and got some goodies. I'm not a big sweet tooth kind of guy (Ma' Roberts is tho) but it looks like they know what they're doing. I liked the red lighting they had around the front entrance, and it will be interesting to see what they do after it's time to take Christmas lights down.

It was good to see that space open, and on the upper floors above CityWalk they had the lights on and there were a handful of people I could see walking around up there.

I have a lot of respect for not naming names and singling out inexperienced developers. I wish that the developers that are experienced were offering help to guys like Gary Cotton, because it's clear as day that whatever happens on that corner is also good for everyone from Jim Brewer to Avis Scaramucci to Randy Hogan. I think it's reasonable to say, "I wish people that don't know everything weren't making bold statements."

But from my perspective, the bottom line is I like to know what's going on--I'm very interested in the process, and I understand it, esp the design phase and planning aspects, a lot more than the typical Joe does, despite that I'm only supposed to know as much as the average Joe regardless. What I do is make guesses, and I get a lot wrong, I get a lot right..my track record is probably none too good, but when there's not a lot of information is when the guesses really start flying.

When I'm trying to predict or call any future developments the best I can do is take last year's information and try and guess where that might have been headed. Last year (as in 2009) was a different chapter than 2008 with a completely different economic climate for sure, but there is still continuity. There were still plans that ended like this: ...

I overuse the ellipses a lot in my writing, but figuratively, I hate them. I like periods, which is not something anyone would know from reading anything I write LOL..

[kd5ili]

Bricktown: Candy Factory Lofts renovations: 8 st: 14 units: 60,000 SF office]

A bit off topic here...ok, way off topic, but does anybody know if/when they are going to open that board back up to allow you to register? I have been trying for quite some time now, but it keeps stating that "registration is clased at this time".

-Chris-

[Spartan]

Hey Chris.

Funny you ask, I'm actually the guy behind that board. It might happen one of these days, it's just that nobody behind it was really still interested in posting and the freeze on registrations was mainly to preserve the board in case there is a need to bring it back again at some point. There were days with dozens and dozens of spam bots invading the site in a single day, even with the captcha thingy which these spam bots figured out. So no new posts, but no new spam ruining it either is the trade off.

Right now I'm interested in trying out how "urban-minded" OKC Talk can be. I've had a good time debating with the larger group of people over here and I would hate for it to look like once again I'm running some sort of "competition" for OKC Talk.. for what it's worth I think the old OkMet board is at least a good record book of "last year's news" since the topics were so well organized and analyzed.