Streetcar

[Kerry]

Agreed, I go to 10 a year and with the exception of any in Vegas, the general location around the convention had zero influence on my decisions to go or on my decisions on what to do recreationally while I was at a convention.

And yes, this includes 2 that happen right here in OKC, one usually at the Biltmore and the other at the Cox center.

You might think differently if your convention planner picked a real crappy place with nothing safe for you to do after 5PM.

http://www.genesisarena.com/
(don't let the picture on the web site fool you - it is in Gary, IN)

[fuzzytoad]

You might think differently if your convention planner picked a real crappy place with nothing safe for you to do after 5PM.

Genesis Center - The Largest Meeting Facility in the Northwest Indiana & South Suburban Chicago AreaS
(don't let the picture on the web site fool you - it is in Gary, IN)

Like I said.

1 at the Biltmore and 1 at the Cox Center.

I've gone to Conventions in Wisconsin, -25 outside with nothing at all to do but drink in the hotel bar or sleep. It didn't change my mind about returning to go to the same convention there again. I went because of the subject matter of the Convention, not because of the location.

If there was a Rodeo Belt Buckle Art Convention in a city with the most beautiful Streetcar system in the world, every possible shopping experience and breathtaking natural beauty in the form of parks and artwork, I still wouldn't go because I have zero interest in the subject matter of the Convention.

[Urban Pioneer]

I was at the streetcar conference in Fort Worth on Friday. Rick Cain, Larry Hopper, and myself went down there to represent the city. It was a very enjoyable event.

One of the most striking things I heard came from the former Mayor of Charlotte. He was talking about new schools that Charlotte had built and how he wished that the development of the light rail should have interefaced with the school in lieu of school buses.

I got to thinking about this. I guess older children use the subway in New York. It probably helps develop independence. It occurred to me that we still are two years off before we start on the downtown school. Why not consider interfacing it with the streetcar?

Re-posting this because it got lost. What do people think about schools meshing with transit? Should kids use a local transit system instead of school buses?

[Spartan]

My opinion is that many people are overthinking this process. There is no one perfect desicion on the planning of the convention center. I have been to various convention centers around the country and I was never greatly influenced by any of the things being discussed as to what I would want to do after arriving as to seeing other parts of the area or how I would get there.

I agree with this. From a convention goers perspective the specifics about the convention center don't matter nearly as much as they do to the locals who have to live around it. That's why ALL of the bells and whistles it gets need to be directed at the local community around it and NOT conventions. The reality is that conventions are not going to come to OKC specifically because we have this certain feature with our center and another center doesn't, or because the interior looks a certain way as opposed to the interior at the DLL Convention Center (Pittsburgh) or whatever.

The reality is that convention centers get up or down consideration, is it a nice center, or is it not a nice center. Period. Then they will consider the strategic advantages of the city, whether the center is adequate to host the event, and the most important thing they'll weigh is the proposal from the city to host the event. Whether the convention center has a streetcar stop in the middle of it, a food court in the heart of, just a real bona fide convention fortress, makes no difference whatsoever.

Convention goers adapt to whatever city they're in. A convention in God-awful Phoenix (although it's getting a LOT better and more urban there) is just the same as a convention in Minneapolis. You might enjoy the idea of being in Minneapolis a lot more (as long as it's summer), but still, you get the idea from a practical standpoint..

[jbrown84]

I think such things may affect where a convention chooses to locate more so than whether a convention attender comes. And it's also about having the best environment when can when they get here, even if they would have come either way.

what if we designed a convention center that built on the Columbus center, that looked like and interacted with the street just like any Bricktown or A-Alley block but was in fact, actually a convention center. That's where I think the solution to the convention center problem lies, is in masking the typical superblock structure as something else.

I'm 100% with you on this.

[soonerguru]

Whether or not people attend a convention in OKC is not the issue. The issue is we want them to have a great time while they're here so they will go back home and brag about how cool OKC is. It's really not that complicated.

Or, is the suggestion that we shouldn't care anyway 'cause if they're coming to the squaredancing convention they're coming to square dance and won't care anyway? I think that's a lousy way of looking at things.

For the record, we should build the coolest convention we can afford in the most sensible location.

[Spartan]

I just did this for something else I'm working on right now, but thought it would be cool to post it here, too.

[krisb]

Re-posting this because it got lost. What do people think about schools meshing with transit? Should kids use a local transit system instead of school buses?

I went to Bermuda this past summer for my anniversary. They don't even have school buses there. All of the students ride public transit.

[Kerry]

I don't think it is practical to expect school children to ride mass transit to school. Some might be able to do it but it would be nowhere near a majority. I would say 1% at best. Now if the street car was to serve a University campus you might have some decent ridership from students.

[rcjunkie]

I read an article where schools in Kentucky were looking at implementing a plan to charge for bus transportation, I think this would be a fair solution to the ever increasing cost of transporting kids to and from school.

[Spartan]

I don't think it is practical to expect school children to ride mass transit to school. Some might be able to do it but it would be nowhere near a majority. I would say 1% at best. Now if the street car was to serve a University campus you might have some decent ridership from students.

I agree. Keep in mind that we're not talking about a high school or middle school, that won't be what MAPS for Kids builds downtown. The MAPS for Kids money is for a downtown elementary school, to be specific. I like the idea in concept, but I just don't feel comfortable having elementary school kids ride the streetcar alone, same as I wouldn't feel comfortable having elementary schools kids drive themselves home or walk a mile alone in the suburbs. I know some kids do, my dad always liked to tell me how he did it every day in the sleet and the snow and the -40 degrees (in Houston), but let's be real here.

Now if we're talking about students at the OHC, OCU Law, or perhaps even OCU eventually, yeah that could be a HUGE plus. I ride the C-Train at least once a day in Calgary, because it has a stop about half a mile from my apartment and I can ride for very little into downtown. Once I cross the Bow River and I'm in downtown I can ride for free and go about my day. It's amazing all of the diversity I see on the train.. people of all different races, creeds, occupations, ages, etc..

[Platemaker]

Posted by Ocklawaha in the comments section of the Moving Forward article:

"Also, it should be noted that NO other city is broadcasting more Anti-Jacksonville crap then OKC, as the media there is having a Jaguar/Jacksonville/Failed Everything Feeding Frenzy."

Where is he getting that 'crap'??

[jbrown84]

What???? What on earth is he talking about?

[Urban Pioneer]

I agree. Keep in mind that we're not talking about a high school or middle school, that won't be what MAPS for Kids builds downtown. The MAPS for Kids money is for a downtown elementary school, to be specific. I like the idea in concept, but I just don't feel comfortable having elementary school kids ride the streetcar alone.

With that knowledge I guess the streetcar could still be used but with the parents taking them to school. Maybe say, dropping them off on the way to work.... or some future grocery store or something. If we want to develop a truly sustainable urban lifestyle within OKC, then we need to think urban.

[Spartan]

Well I'm the last person that needs to be told to think urban, and yeah parents could use the streetcar to drop their kids off, but let's not assume streetcar will make little kids more independent. Parents still need to take their kids to school and pick them up.

[Kerry]

Urban Pioneer - what you are envisioning would require numerous high-rise condos and apartments to supply a steady stream of elementary students year after year. I don't think that will happen in OKC for a very long time

[Urban Pioneer]

Then who exactly is the elementary school planned and financed going to serve? I agree about the length of time. But if our existing schools prove anything, the buildings are often 40 years old or later. So why not plan for the future since this is all new construction?

[PLANSIT]

Downtown is a stronghold for SINKS and DINKS. The need for a school seems a tad bit premature. And frankly, if a school is planned correctly it shouldn't need very much in terms of long distance transportation. Kids can and should walk/ride their bike.

C2S seems like the only area that will see the critical mass of families to warrant an elementary school. IMO.

Urban, ask L. Hopper if COTPA has ever tried the school approach.

[Kerry]

Then who exactly is the elementary school planned and financed going to serve? I agree about the length of time. But if our existing schools prove anything, the buildings are often 40 years old or later. So why not plan for the future since this is all new construction?

I wasn't talking about a school having enough students to support it. I was talking about a street car line having enough children within a reasonable distance of the rails to make the street car a viable transportation method. It seems unrealistic to ask a family to drive a mile to a street car stop, let their 9 year old get out, and ride the street car the last 1/2 mile.

[fuzzytoad]

It seems unrealistic to ask a family to drive a mile to a street car stop, let their 9 year old get out, and ride the street car the last 1/2 mile.

It's no more unrealistic than expecting scores of people to drive a mile(or more) into downtown to park and ride the streetcar a 1/2 mile to get to work, or to go to the park.

[Kerry]

It's no more unrealistic than expecting scores of people to drive a mile(or more) into downtown to park and ride the streetcar a 1/2 mile to get to work, or to go to the park.

Hold on. You are talking about two different things here. It is totally realistic to expect someone to drive in from Edmond, park their car in Bricktown for dinner, and then take the streetcar to the Performing Arts Center. It is also totally reasonable to expect someone from OU medical to take the streetcar to Bricktown for lunch. The difference is people aren't parking at school - they are only dropping off and picking up.

Once the tracks are laid, residential density will increase along those lines, but there won't be any critical mass elementary school children. You might have a few but I would bet no more than 1% of a 700 student elementary school.

[fuzzytoad]

Hold on. You are talking about two different things here. It is totally realistic to expect someone to drive in from Edmond, park their car in Bricktown for dinner, and then take the streetcar to the Performing Arts Center. It is also totally reasonable to expect someone from OU medical to take the streetcar to Bricktown for lunch. The difference is people aren't parking at school - they are only dropping off and picking up.

I fail to see the difference. Instead of dropping off and picking up at the school, they'll drop off and pick up at one of many streetcar stops.

[Kerry]

I fail to see the difference. Instead of dropping off and picking up at the school, they'll drop off and pick up at one of many streetcar stops.

Exactly - so why would you do that and have your 9 year old child wait for a streetcar that might not arrive for 5 to 10 more minutes when you can drive another 45 seconds and drop them off at the front door. 'Kiss and Gos' work well for mom and dad going to work but not so well for elementary school kids.

[Trailrunner]

Regarding the "hub", keep in mind that we want the streetcar to be the nexus for the future Regional Transit System- commuter rail. So, more than likely that might be somewhere between the new boulevard/convention center and the Bricktown/SanteFe Station.

Here's something really cool to think about.

As Urban points out, the rail hub is almost certainly going to be located on the north-south Santa Fe line. Obviously, the terminal area of the hub for commuter rail, Amtrak, High-Speed rail will be located above-grade on the elevated rail area. But what about the streetcar and other possible future light rail?

The unusual nature of having an elevated commuter rail terminal actually would allow for the development of an at-grade light rail (streetcar) terminal under the commuter rail terminal. Streetcars would move through the hub by connecting inside an indoor terminal area. Direct connection between the commuter rail terminal above and light rail terminal below would be provided by escalators and elevators (for ADA complaince) leading up and down from the passenger platforms.

A bi-level terminal like this would be functionally very efficient as a rail transit hub and would open up all kinds of possibilities with regard to transit passenger services. If done right, we could end up with one of the best and most unique rail transit hubs in the region.

[fuzzytoad]

Exactly - so why would you do that and have your 9 year old child wait for a streetcar that might not arrive for 5 to 10 more minutes when you can drive another 45 seconds and drop them off at the front door. 'Kiss and Gos' work well for mom and dad going to work but not so well for elementary school kids.

Why? For the same reason you might not want to suck up 10-20 minutes of your lunch break waiting on the streetcar. Or standing out in the cold at night for ten minutes after dinner in Bricktown when you could drive to the Performing Arts Center in 4 or five minutes.

To support the mass transit system in OKC. The one you all voted for and can't wait to start using.. Oh, unless your child has to wait, or its cold, or wet, or whatever other excuse you want to use that can be applied to *everyone* who could potentially ride the streetcar, or bus.