Public safety #1

[OKCGUY3]

The four new Rescue Ladders that were being ordered to replace the four that are 15yrs old have been canceled. So much for public safety being number 1 priority. That didn't take long. We are getting a hockey team though!

[mack1520]

Guess I just don't see the connection. BTW, when do tickets go on sale?

[kevinpate]

Is this in some part a tradeoff re the previous concern for pending manpower reductions that went away?

[metro]

Private vs. Public, don't let the union robots control you

[Midtowner]

Goolge this:

non sequitur.

[onthestrip]

Shouldn't ladders have a longer life than just 15 years anyways?

[LakeEffect]

I'd like to hear more of an explanation. Maybe something from the Chief's office?

[Spartan]

Guess I just don't see the connection. BTW, when do tickets go on sale?

NewsOK

I think it's kind of ironic that the new team will be an Edmonton Oilers franchise.. that means I will have to hate them, no matter what.

And what does "Prodigal Hockey" even mean? That sounds like a great name for an alternative punk band. Is Bob Funk the new front man for a punk band? The name works, the face doesn't..he'd have to lose the cowboy hat and go all Leon Russell, but a man of his age could easily make it happen. He might have some very special insight on the typical "down with the man" message that "Prodigal Hockey" would scream, especially considering for most of his life, he has been "the man."

Oh sorry, what were we talking about? Sorry I didn't mean to distract from incoherent anti-MAPS angry bantering (hey, didn't we already have the election?).

[Mikemarsh51]

Mack1520, The Mayor said public safety was the number 1 priority. Now we are giving a yet to be named hockey team 4.5 million in improvements for the Myriad and not replacing fire apparatus.

Kevinpate, I believe it is.

Metro, there is one full time employee at the union hall and a couple of administrative staff. I don't think anyone is controlling anybody.

Onthestrip, the industry standard for fire apparatus is 10 years frontline and another 10 as a backup. They rarely last that long when the lowest bid vehicle is purchased. Although we have had some really good luck with E-one from Florida. We got screwed by Boardman with the last 2 sets of fire engines we bought from them, they were crap. We did score a great deal from E-one recently, we were able to purchase a demonstrator ladder from them for about $160,000.00. Which was about half price for a great back up rig. Our last 4 fire engines cost a little over $400,000.00 and the ladders that were canceled were going to cost approx $675,000.00. Right now we have 7 fire engines and 3 ladder companies at the shop. OCFD has 35 fire engines, 13 rescue ladders, 1 medium rescue unit, a underwater rescue/recovery vehicle w/ 2 boats and 2 donated SeaDoo's, 2 Haz mat units, 15 brush pumpers and 6 Battalion command vehicles. We also have a massive fleet of support vehicles

Cafeboeuf, 297-3314, call them you will most likely get to talk to Deputy Chief Clay. I'm sure he will answer any questions you have.

[LakeEffect]

Cafeboeuf, 297-3314, call them you will most likely get to talk to Deputy Chief Clay. I'm sure he will answer any questions you have.

Thanks, but I'll pass on that, Clay isn't as forward with info as Bryant, in my past experiences.

I was more trying to make the (passive-aggressive) point that people should post back-up information when making such claims, especially on OKC Talk after the Maps 3 election.

[LakeEffect]

Was the order canceled, or just deferred due to the economic conditions?

[rcjunkie]

Shouldn't ladders have a longer life than just 15 years anyways?

Not when the NOT THIS MAPS People are trying to make "something out of nothing".

I guess you have to give them credit for something, but talk about kicking a dead horse, hell, even Mark Shannon has thrown in the towel and moved on.

[barnold]

rcjunkie,
I believe it's just not having a short memory, nor kicking a dead horse. While they aren't cutting (laying off) any currently employed personnel, they are also not hiring any more. I got to witness the Mayor pledge (9 times an hour) that maps 3 will not hurt public safety and will actually help it. I don't think that those very public statements he made along with David Prater, the Gov. etc. will fall by wayside and just go away. But I also am not so foolish to believe that the assistance comes immediately. It may take a little while. But the city has already started robbing "peter" to pay "paul"; only to create issues that will also effect public safety.

[mack1520]

Looks like OKCGUY3 has thrown in the towel too. He came in, took a post election swipe at MAPS3 and hasn't been heard from since. Thank goodness there are others willing to take on his cause.

[OKCGUY3]

Haven't "thrown in the towel" just have a life other than computer chat!

As for follow up information, here goes:

For the last Maps project, the Fire Dept was able to use the use tax to order rigs for a replacement program to keep up with an aging fleet. This same use tax was used to order 4 new fire trucks. Tuesday, the City Council voted to recind the use tax for new fire rigs, and use it instead to remodel the Cox center to appease a Hockey League. Not saying there is anything wrong with wanting a Hockey team! However, they didn't just use the already appropriated money for the fire trucks and then turn around and find another source for public safety. Rather, the order was cancelled in the bid process and now the Fire Chief must go to City Council to ask for rigs on an as needed basis. Hello, if we need them, then we don't have a year to wait on the whole bidding process and purchase order approval after the fact. So, as it stands, there are no fire trurcks ordered or being ordered or approved for order to replace the four that have been canceled.

WARNING, THIS POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PAST MAPS ELECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The artical selection below is from the following link.

The Journal Record - Article
About $1.3 million for the project are already available from revenue sources dedicated to Cox Convention Center capital improvements. City officials said the balance of the committed funds, about $3.2 million, will come from the city and schools capital projects use tax fund with repayment from revenues generated and collected by SMG under an extended use license agreement with Prodigal and other Cox center events.

[Spartan]

Haven't "thrown in the towel" just have a life other than computer chat!

As for follow up information, here goes:

For the last Maps project, the Fire Dept was able to use the use tax to order rigs for a replacement program to keep up with an aging fleet. This same use tax was used to order 4 new fire trucks. Tuesday, the City Council voted to recind the use tax for new fire rigs, and use it instead to remodel the Cox center to appease a Hockey League. Not saying there is anything wrong with wanting a Hockey team! However, they didn't just use the already appropriated money for the fire trucks and then turn around and find another source for public safety. Rather, the order was cancelled in the bid process and now the Fire Chief must go to City Council to ask for rigs on an as needed basis. Hello, if we need them, then we don't have a year to wait on the whole bidding process and purchase order approval after the fact. So, as it stands, there are no fire trurcks ordered or being ordered or approved for order to replace the four that have been canceled.

WARNING, THIS POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PAST MAPS ELECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The artical selection below is from the following link.

The Journal Record - Article
About $1.3 million for the project are already available from revenue sources dedicated to Cox Convention Center capital improvements. City officials said the balance of the committed funds, about $3.2 million, will come from the city and schools capital projects use tax fund with repayment from revenues generated and collected by SMG under an extended use license agreement with Prodigal and other Cox center events.

I take back my flippancy earlier. Thanks for a more thought-out post.

I agree with you on the issue. I myself I'm starting to get annoyed at City Hall consistently doing nothing ALL YEAR but say one thing and do another. They said the use tax would go towards public safety, and as much as I love a good hockey fight, that's not public safety. I'm upset about the non-urban projects that are going around all over downtown. I'm upset that buildings are being torn down. I'm upset over the crappy quality of the Bricktown fire station ("The best project for the lowest bid" my arse). I'm upset about the City's reversal on BIDs and capital projects. Are we suddenly anti-capital projects? I'm upset that we're not going to get a real advisory committee more than likely.

Yes, I'm glad MAPS3 passed. That's the one bright spot, but we need to be doing better in everything else. Our city government IS compromising its integrity and falling sub-par compared to the standard that Ron Norick built up as mayor.

So if the use taxes won't go towards public safety, what will the repayment from SMG and "Prodigal Hockey" go towards? That will be at least $500,000 a year as a part of this deal.

[onthestrip]

A couple of things.

The 4+ mil used for improvements to the Cox Center will be a money maker. They secured a new lease and in return are making improvements. A business decision really.

As for the use tax. Maps3 has not started collecting taxes yet and wont until April, I think. So the use tax that is going to public safety isnt being collected yet. Patience.

[kd5ili]

We did score a great deal from E-one recently, we were able to purchase a demonstrator ladder from them for about $160,000.00.

Jeez, did you have to help them dispose of some bodies or something?

Sweet deal...wish we could stumble onto something like that.

-Chris-

[kevinpate]

A couple of things.

The 4+ mil used for improvements to the Cox Center will be a money maker. They secured a new lease and in return are making improvements. A business decision really.

As for the use tax. Maps3 has not started collecting taxes yet and wont until April, I think. So the use tax that is going to public safety isnt being collected yet. Patience.

The use tax in question, if I understand correctly, is a presently collected use tax, not the companion use tax that will occur alongside of MAPs 3 when M3 begins next year.

As for a money maker, the improvements appear to be more expensive than the base term lease payments if I read correctly (I skimmed and may not have.) Wouldn't it take well into the lease renewal periods, if such option are exercised at all, before there is a breakeven?

I'm not anti-hockey. I'm not a NTMer, I'm not even a resident who needs y'alls Firedawgs or their trucks I do think canceling, rather than deferring, an existing order for four trucks seems a tad odd.

As for my earlier Q, hadn't seen the article linked at that time, and I was wondering if the cancelled order was a simple temp tradeoff of choosing manpower over equipment this FY since there had earlier been talk of a possibility for a few equipment teams going dark.

Trading men for trucks for a short term is one thing. But closing off an in place updating program in hopes of returning hockey to OKC, yet again, seems to be another.

Maybe it's because I don't understand hockey, but it seems an odd choice to me.

[Larry OKC]

...As for a money maker, the improvements appear to be more expensive than the base term lease payments if I read correctly (I skimmed and may not have.) Wouldn't it take well into the lease renewal periods, if such option are exercised at all, before there is a breakeven? ...

My quick and dirty math showed that it will take about 11 years to "breakeven" on the lease/improvement cost. Thats the initial 5 year lease and the 2@3 yr extensions. This also presumes that the $300K/yr rent completely covers game day expenses and is profit to the city (it isn't). Most likely it is like the Thunder lease where the City only makes $12K a game above expenses. This is in addition to the fact that we have yet to "break even" on the $60M under the 1st MAPS (will just start to do that about the time the new Convention Center opens, when it will take 25 years (with the Chamber's max economic impact multipliers used) to break even on it. Actually 35 years from now since it will be 10 years before it is open.

[andy157]

The use tax in question, if I understand correctly, is a presently collected use tax, not the companion use tax that will occur alongside of MAPs 3 when M3 begins next year.

As for a money maker, the improvements appear to be more expensive than the base term lease payments if I read correctly (I skimmed and may not have.) Wouldn't it take well into the lease renewal periods, if such option are exercised at all, before there is a breakeven?

I'm not anti-hockey. I'm not a NTMer, I'm not even a resident who needs y'alls Firedawgs or their trucks I do think canceling, rather than deferring, an existing order for four trucks seems a tad odd.

As for my earlier Q, hadn't seen the article linked at that time, and I was wondering if the cancelled order was a simple temp tradeoff of choosing manpower over equipment this FY since there had earlier been talk of a possibility for a few equipment teams going dark.

Trading men for trucks for a short term is one thing. But closing off an in place updating program in hopes of returning hockey to OKC, yet again, seems to be another.

Maybe it's because I don't understand hockey, but it seems an odd choice to me.

Kevinpate, you are correct. The use tax in question was companion to the MAPS 4 KIDS tax. It is also a portion of the $60 million that the Mayor and Councilman Marrs claimed had been spent on Public Safety since 2001

[andy157]

I take back my flippancy earlier. Thanks for a more thought-out post.

I agree with you on the issue. I myself I'm starting to get annoyed at City Hall consistently doing nothing ALL YEAR but say one thing and do another. They said the use tax would go towards public safety, and as much as I love a good hockey fight, that's not public safety. I'm upset about the non-urban projects that are going around all over downtown. I'm upset that buildings are being torn down. I'm upset over the crappy quality of the Bricktown fire station ("The best project for the lowest bid" my arse). I'm upset about the City's reversal on BIDs and capital projects. Are we suddenly anti-capital projects? I'm upset that we're not going to get a real advisory committee more than likely.

Yes, I'm glad MAPS3 passed. That's the one bright spot, but we need to be doing better in everything else. Our city government IS compromising its integrity and falling sub-par compared to the standard that Ron Norick built up as mayor.

So if the use taxes won't go towards public safety, what will the repayment from SMG and "Prodigal Hockey" go towards? That will be at least $500,000 a year as a part of this deal.

Where will the $500K go? Spartan that's a good question. Six months to a year from now after we've all forgotten about it who knows. Out of sight, out of mind.

[Larry OKC]

My quick and dirty math showed that it will take about 11 years to "breakeven" on the lease/improvement cost. Thats the initial 5 year lease and the 2@3 yr extensions. This also presumes that the $300K/yr rent completely covers game day expenses and is profit to the city (it isn't). Most likely it is like the Thunder lease where the City only makes $12K a game above expenses. This is in addition to the fact that we have yet to "break even" on the $60M under the 1st MAPS (will just start to do that about the time the new Convention Center opens, when it will take 25 years (with the Chamber's max economic impact multipliers used) to break even on it. Actually 35 years from now since it will be 10 years before it is open.

In addition...this was from the Oklahoman blog back in July of this year

Terms of the proposed new lease… | Blazers

There will also be a team store where AHC will receive 100 percent of the gross revenues.

The terms have been negotiated and accepted with the intent and principal purpose of relocating an AHL team to Oklahoma with approval of the AHL.

And finally, renovations to the Cox Center:

Ice plant, loge boxes, VIP and STH club, upgrade to locker rooms, improvements to meeting rooms, additional team storage as well as the team store as well as improvements to how the advertising will be displayed and the lighting, among other things.

Is all of that included in the $4M?

[betts]

Depends on how you look at this. Do we usually expect to break even on any public works designed for leisure time activities? We will never break even on the new park, nor have we broken even on any parks created by the city. I seriously doubt we will ever break even on the Civic Center, and probably haven't and won't on the Brick either. But, when have we broken even on a road we've created that wasn't a turnpike, or a city building, or an airport? I think this whole "break even" concept should either be applied to everything we build with taxpayer money or nothing. Since we'll never break even on the majority, let's stop worrying about two.

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with this, but the mayor's public offer of use taxes to fund new employees was rejected by the unions prior to the vote. So, I don't know if it's completely fair to assume that he would have to be held to that offer. I'm not saying it's right to use the use tax for the Cox Center, just that we shouldn't expect to break even. Also, I may be reading it incorrectly, but it looks like the Myriad may be getting the use tax from MAPS for Kids and/or the Ford Center MAPS, not the MAPS 3 use tax which won't start being generated until April. Does anyone else read it that way?

[kevinpate]

Depends on how you look at this. Do we usually expect to break even on any public works designed for leisure time activities? We will never break even on the new park, nor have we broken even on any parks created by the city. I seriously doubt we will ever break even on the Civic Center, and probably haven't and won't on the Brick either. But, when have we broken even on a road we've created that wasn't a turnpike, or a city building, or an airport? I think this whole "break even" concept should either be applied to everything we build with taxpayer money or nothing. Since we'll never break even on the majority, let's stop worrying about two.

Just my opinion!

Someone earlier opined spending the money on improvements and not the planed trucks was in line with the expenditures being for a moneymaker. The breakeven arose on whether such a justification was applicable.

Was it bad to kill off the planned purchase of firetrucks for this? Not for me to decide. Does it seem inconsistent with the many acknowledgments that public safety is very important? At least a bit.

Shoot, I wondered if it was a temp tradeoff for no layoffs at first, as I hadn't heard the hockey story at the time I asked on that possibility.

Also just my opinion.