Tulsans finally getting it?

[OUGrad05]

What exactly is the mayoral sitution there? How do people feel about Taylor, then this new guy? What is he promising?

I'll attempt to answer your questions while addressing soem of what soonerguru has posted...

UP, according to a lot of insiders I know there, Taylor would have been reelected if she had chosen to run again, despite the very vocal opposition.

Since Bartlett supported Taylor during her run, a lot of folks I know there don't believe much will change. I agree, but for different reasons.

The angry Tulsa folks think there's a plutocratic conspiracy running the city. They may be somewhat correct but the real problem is the factionalism.

The people in the suburbs there really don't give a whit about downtown. Also, they think their 'burbs are superior to the city despite the fact there would be no employment base there if the city weren't there.

A lot of the constituencies view the Midtown, elite class as the barons and baronesses who make all the decisions. Thus they are highly skeptical of their city governance. That won't change with Dewey Bartlett, Jr.

They also have a lot of ultra-conservative suburbanites and South Tulsans who don't believe in any kind of taxes, and who are so radical as to support the dissolution of public education, so they struggle passing any city improvement tax packages.

As much as I would like to see it change, I don't believe it will until OKC is visibly 100 percent better to even the most delusional Tulsan, and that may take another ten years. By that time, they will be very far behind and OKC will be working on MAPS 4.

I a not sure who you were talking to but most I know were not going to vote for Taylor again despite having voted for her initially. But really its all speculation since she chose not to run again. I am not sure she would have been re-elected.

Bartlett has basically received a city that is in disrepair and dealing with major corruption problems. However, he is part of the normal Tulsa political class so for this reason I am very skeptical of him changing much if anything. It is unfortunate the choices for mayor were so poor...but then again I could be and hope I am surprised in the long run with Bartlett's performance...

Sooner is correct if by factionalism he means major political factions (ie left and right) essentially being unwilling to work with eachother, which is what Tulsa has been dealing with for 15 years now. You have one group that wants a tax on everything and another group that will oppose any hint of any tax increase no matter how noble or justified it may be.

Actually people in the suburbs care about downtown tulsa, I do especially, since I work there, but most folks I talk to are pleased with the BOK center but very disappointed with the disjointed manner in which Tulsa has chosen to develop land within the IDL.

Sooner is exactly right about the elite class ruling tulsa and awarding major contracts to buddies/friends/family despite it costing the tax payers huge sums of money. Bartlett is part of this class and as a result viewed with skepticism (at least from me and many others I talk with).

Sooner is again right on the tax issues, but keep in mind many people are very skeptical given the corruption issues that have erupted in Tulsa over the past decade...you would be to if your money was spent/squandered/handed out in such an irresponsible manner.

I was hoping we'd have a couple of very different mayoral candidates pop up for Tulsa this time around, we did not. That means we have at least 4 more years (again I'm a bartlett skeptic, i could be proven wrong) before the city is truly moved in the right direction. I hope I am wrong as my wife and I both work in downtown Tulsa and love visiting some of the restaurants/pubs downtown. But the city has a long way to go to catchup with OKC or even make the forward progress on the scale OKC has seen the last 15 years.

[MikeOKC]

I've listened to this argument for decades and am SO tired of it. I think we're lucky to have two great cities in this state. I've always found the bickering somewhat juvenile and like two competing high schools. Silly.

[OUGrad05]

I've listened to this argument for decades and am SO tired of it. I think we're lucky to have two great cities in this state. I've always found the bickering somewhat juvenile and like two competing high schools. Silly.

They really should be cheering eachother on, unfortunately, at least up here in TTown thats not the case. There is a lot of disdain for OKC which is just silly in my opinion.

[soonerguru]

I've listened to this argument for decades and am SO tired of it. I think we're lucky to have two great cities in this state. I've always found the bickering somewhat juvenile and like two competing high schools. Silly.

MikeOKC,

I for one would love to see Tulsa realize its amazing potential, but it is squandering. There is absolutely nothing juvenile about pointing this out.

On the other hand, it is my distinct impression, verified constantly by the clients I work with throughout the City of Tulsa, that there is a genuine resentment toward OKC. Ask an honest Tulsan and they will confirm it to you. There is a little bit of the "little brother" syndrome up there, which they try to mask with a very unconvincing superiority complex.

[soonerguru]

I'll attempt to answer your questions while addressing soem of what soonerguru has posted...



I a not sure who you were talking to but most I know were not going to vote for Taylor again despite having voted for her initially. But really its all speculation since she chose not to run again. I am not sure she would have been re-elected.

Bartlett has basically received a city that is in disrepair and dealing with major corruption problems. However, he is part of the normal Tulsa political class so for this reason I am very skeptical of him changing much if anything. It is unfortunate the choices for mayor were so poor...but then again I could be and hope I am surprised in the long run with Bartlett's performance...

Sooner is correct if by factionalism he means major political factions (ie left and right) essentially being unwilling to work with eachother, which is what Tulsa has been dealing with for 15 years now. You have one group that wants a tax on everything and another group that will oppose any hint of any tax increase no matter how noble or justified it may be.

Actually people in the suburbs care about downtown tulsa, I do especially, since I work there, but most folks I talk to are pleased with the BOK center but very disappointed with the disjointed manner in which Tulsa has chosen to develop land within the IDL.

Sooner is exactly right about the elite class ruling tulsa and awarding major contracts to buddies/friends/family despite it costing the tax payers huge sums of money. Bartlett is part of this class and as a result viewed with skepticism (at least from me and many others I talk with).

Sooner is again right on the tax issues, but keep in mind many people are very skeptical given the corruption issues that have erupted in Tulsa over the past decade...you would be to if your money was spent/squandered/handed out in such an irresponsible manner.

I was hoping we'd have a couple of very different mayoral candidates pop up for Tulsa this time around, we did not. That means we have at least 4 more years (again I'm a bartlett skeptic, i could be proven wrong) before the city is truly moved in the right direction. I hope I am wrong as my wife and I both work in downtown Tulsa and love visiting some of the restaurants/pubs downtown. But the city has a long way to go to catchup with OKC or even make the forward progress on the scale OKC has seen the last 15 years.

It sounds like we largely agree, but I want to clarify a couple of points:

1. I believe the situation is so dire that whoever is mayor has to try out-of-the-box taxation approaches, because the citizen voters are so opposed to tax increases. Honestly, things were in dire shape when Taylor took over, and I'm not sure whose fault it is besides the citizens themselves. I know they blamed Taylor's two predecessors as well. The common denominator to the dysfunction is the citizens; I'm sure they'll be hating on the new mayor in short order, just as many were hating on Kathy. To his credit, it is possible in my mind that Bartlett will be a better conciliator than Taylor, which wouldn't take much (she's anything but a conciliator!)

2. I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment about the ruling class running Tulsa, but I acknowledged that many people, yourself included, believe this to be true.

3. Another issue you touched on is that Tulsa has partisan mayoral elections, and OKC doesn't. Looking at Tulsa's situation, this is obviously a terrible idea. My one and only knock on Cornett is that he pursued a partisan approach during his initial election. Who knows who the political advisor is who suggested this, but it was a moronic move that is potentially very detrimental going forward. Please, pray God, don't let this happen in OKC.

4. Regarding the suburban voters' support for Tulsa, while I'm sure there are many people like yourself who do support progressive initiatives to move Tulsa forward, the overall suburban vote has been opposed to these things, such as the river improvement vote a year or so ago.

[OUGrad05]

MikeOKC,

I for one would love to see Tulsa realize its amazing potential, but it is squandering. There is absolutely nothing juvenile about pointing this out.

On the other hand, it is my distinct impression, verified constantly by the clients I work with throughout the City of Tulsa, that there is a genuine resentment toward OKC. Ask an honest Tulsan and they will confirm it to you. There is a little bit of the "little brother" syndrome up there, which they try to mask with a very unconvincing superiority complex.

This sums it up nicely.

[OUGrad05]

It sounds like we largely agree, but I want to clarify a couple of points:

1. I believe the situation is so dire that whoever is mayor has to try out-of-the-box taxation approaches, because the citizen voters are so opposed to tax increases. Honestly, things were in dire shape when Taylor took over, and I'm not sure whose fault it is besides the citizens themselves. I know they blamed Taylor's two predecessors as well. The common denominator to the dysfunction is the citizens; I'm sure they'll be hating on the new mayor in short order, just as many were hating on Kathy. To his credit, it is possible in my mind that Bartlett will be a better conciliator than Taylor, which wouldn't take much (she's anything but a conciliator!)

2. I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment about the ruling class running Tulsa, but I acknowledged that many people, yourself included, believe this to be true.

3. Another issue you touched on is that Tulsa has partisan mayoral elections, and OKC doesn't. Looking at their situation, this is a terrible idea. My one and only knock on Cornett is that he pursued this approach during his initial election. Please pray God don't let this happen in OKC.

4. Regarding the suburban voters support for Tulsa, while I'm sure there are many people like yourself who do support progressive initiatives to move Tulsa forward, the overall suburban vote has been opposed to these things, such as the river improvement vote a year or so ago.

Yeah for sure, Taylor took over a ****ball and did a far better job than LaFortune, at least IMO. While I wasn't here for much of Lafortune's reign I have done a tone of reading on Tulsa and its prior mayors when we moved up here. And it will definately take some out of the box thinking.

I believe if the city would get rid of the corruption and make all contracts public on a website that would help tremendously. When for example, road contracts are inflated by 30 or 35% to line someone's pockets, people resent it, and therefore resist tax increases (as I'm sure all of us would). The fact is Tulsa is going to require a tax increase of some sort to fix its ailing infrastructure. Rooting out corruption alone will not fix the problem because the city is so far down the road of decay it will take major investment to get it back on track. A sales tax increase would be beneficial and it would require 100% openness on the entire city budget.

Tulsa has been ruled largely by an innercircle of a political class, Lafortune, Taylor and Bartlett are all a part of it in some form at some level. But then again we may simply disagree, which is fine...

The mayoral elections up here are extremely partisan and the debates in general were mediocre, there is a local radio station 1170 (conservative station in general) that has great local talk and had some superb mayoral debates with good questions asked of all three major candidates.

I wouuld support progressive tax initiatives but you're right many will not, I think this could change if Tulsa were more open and less partisan with their tax collections and projects.

[Doug Loudenback]

I've just been browsing over at TulsaNow.org. Man, those guys over there really hate us. I didn't stir the pot, no point. Oh, well ...

[OUGrad05]

I've just been browsing over at TulsaNow.org. Man, those guys over there really hate us. I didn't stir the pot, no point. Oh, well ...

They're not all raging morons

[BG918]

I'm from Tulsa but live in Norman, work in OKC. I still think Tulsa is the nicer place to live but love the progress OKC has made and continues to make. That being said I hope to move back to Tulsa someday but at the same time enjoy living down here.

[MikeOKC]

MikeOKC,

I for one would love to see Tulsa realize its amazing potential, but it is squandering. There is absolutely nothing juvenile about pointing this out.

I didn't mean that pointing out particular things are juvenile. I meant the decades long battle between OKC and Tulsa --- in general! I also have been around enough in my 50 years to know that this isn't a one-way thing. I see just as much resentment toward Tulsa from OKC, it may run in cycles as to who does more finger-pointing, but it's a two-way street. I think that kind of generalizing (from both cities) is what's juvenile. The fact is that Oklahoma City and Tulsa are two great cities and, as a state, we should be proud of them both.

[kevinpate]

They really should be cheering eachother on, unfortunately, at least up here in TTown thats not the case. There is a lot of disdain for OKC which is just silly in my opinion.

Not really a Tulsa issue. More an East of Hwy 75 issue, and to a lesser degree an E of Hwy 177 issue, though that's decidedly lighter until one crosses over Hwy 75.

[In_Tulsa]

As much as I would like to see it change, I don't believe it will until OKC is visibly 100 percent better to even the most delusional Tulsan, and that may take another ten years. By that time, they will be very far behind and OKC will be working on MAPS 4.[/QUOTE]

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

[Steve]

Groan. This thread has once again proven as effective as its predecessors in doing nothing to advance the discussion. I'm out.

[Spartan]

I think you have to be able to appreciate the irony in how, from an OKC perspective, anything less than bowing down to the superiority of MAPS and Bricktown and all things OKC would mean Tulsans aren't "getting it." If they aren't bowing down, they just don't "get it" do they?

Of course the only thing that surprises me is that the proud people in OKC actually seem surprised that Tulsans, who also have just as much to be proud of, aren't going to just bow down and start crying about how they wish they could have a Bass Pro and a Toby Keith's Bar and Grill in their downtown..

[Doug Loudenback]

Groan. This thread has once again proven as effective as its predecessors in doing nothing to advance the discussion. I'm out.

I seem to recall someone saying,

For the past few years it seems as if everytime I look at a story involving downtown Tulsa, the folks up there can’t help taking some sort of pot shot at Oklahoma City. And yet I rarely hear Oklahoma City folks taking pot shots at Tulsa.

Who done it? Click here.

[Steve]

Yeah, you got me there.... but you've got to admit I took a direction not taken before - I tried to help Tulsa find another city to obsess over. Looking back at that poll, I was disappointed those voting in Tulsa were choosing Wichita. Kansas City has so much more potential.

[bluedogok]

They don't care about potential, they wanted someone they knew they could "beat". There is no way they could even compete with KC.

[Spartan]

Tulsa seemingly prefers to pick fights with cities that are relatively flat and treeless. KC may be even flatter than OKC but is not treeless. So Tulsa won't ever be picking a fight with KC because it won't be able to fall back on its green, naturally beautiful landscape.

[soonerguru]

Doug beat me to it.

Steve, are you feeling cranky tonight? I don't find this thread to be particularly contentious or off base.

[Steve]

I might be a bit cranky. Doug already brought me down to size...

[soonerguru]

Tulsa seemingly prefers to pick fights with cities that are relatively flat and treeless. KC may be even flatter than OKC but is not treeless. So Tulsa won't ever be picking a fight with KC because it won't be able to fall back on its green, naturally beautiful landscape.

KC is not flat. It is actually quite hilly, possibly as hilly or even more so than Tulsa.

[mugofbeer]

OKC may be relatively flat and sometimes dusty, but Tulsa should be most concerned that they'll find themselves left squarely in our dust....

[okcpulse]

Okay. When, honestly, when, was OKC ever "sometimes" dusty? Are we talking about the occasional thin dust from west Texas that blows through on an advancing cold front? I've seen worse in New Mexico.

Of the 27 years I spent growing up and living in central Oklahoma, exactly what dust are we talking about? Is it a figure of speech? A metaphor?

There isn't even any desert terrain to make it dusty. The local vegetation doesn't even support a dusty environment. Don't mean to be analytical, I just really think people need to kick the 'dusty' reference. It literally holds no water.

[Swake2]

I simply do not understand the need by so many in Oklahoma City for people in Tulsa to think OKC is the most wonderful place on earth. Here’s a hint, most people live in a city because they like the place for whatever reason, and don’t live in another city because their perception is that the other city is somehow a lesser location. People in Oklahoma City are going to almost always prefer Oklahoma City, and people in Tulsa will not. And you know what, that’s ok.

As for some of the statements in this thread, they are way off base. Tulsa is not exactly “being left in the dust”, Tulsa like almost all cities in this economy is having budget issues. When the economy recovers so will tax revenues. The BOK Center is a huge hit. Tulsa’s version of the Skirvin had it’s grand reopening last week. We have two other hotels on the way downtown, one a new high rise hotel across the street from the BOK Center. Tulsa’s newly redone and expanded convention center is due to be completed within the next month. The new baseball stadium opens in April. There are two downtown residential conversion projects under construction right now with another on the way and a new addition to the Tribune building due to start construction soon. And that’s just downtown.

. The Arkansas River is still seeing huge improvements; The Riverparks reconstruction is nearing completion. The Aquarium is expanding again, Riverspirit casino is about to start a hotel tower, Riverwalk Crossing II is nearly finished along with a residential section.

As for roads, work is starting. Tulsa is starting on construction right now on it’s half billion dollar plan to rebuilt streets and the state is finally spending real money to fix the highways in the Tulsa area. In other areas Tulsa has a brand new Hard Rock casino. TPS has spend hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade schools in the last ten years or so and it’s about to float the largest school bond issue in state history. OU and OSU in Tulsa along with TU have had huge expansions.

I think this is just mostly news you miss because of badly biased and anti-Tulsa media, specifically (really only) the Oklahoman as evidenced by that idiotic blog by the fawning OKC cheerleader Lackmeyer.

That same Oklahoman has sold you a turkey of a Maps plan, the only truly worthwhile project is the transit part, that’s going to be a huge game changer. But you need to really beware that Core to Shore with the park and convention center don’t suck all the momentum and business out of Bricktown by dumping millions of square feet of retail and office space on the market, a market that already is going to struggle with the addition of the Devon tower.