Trying to be gracious

[MsProudSooner]

I don't live in OKC but it seems the the rank and file of the Police Department and the Fire Department put their faith in a campaign proposed by their union leadership....................and it backfired on them. It's not the first time this has happened to a union and it won't be the last. A good move on the part of the police & firemen would be to elect new union membership. This would go a long way towards mending fences with the city & the citizens.

A vote for MAPS 3 wasn't a vote against policemen & firemen. No one disagrees that they have staffing problems. It's time for the police & fire department to work with the city & it's citizens to come up with a creative way to solve the problem. Keep in mind that you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Trying to defeat MAPS 3 was a vinegar approach.

[flintysooner]

I agree with you, flintysooner. I just want to hear both sides. And I want to hear if anyone has been thoughtful in looking at personnel issues and whether there might be more efficient ways to use the employees we do have. Are there pet projects that haven't really been proven to be of value that utilize personnel? Are we top heavy in administration, always a concern in a department that contains government employees. Are there different ways we can utilize personnel that would make them more efficient? As I've said, before more is the answer, are we sure that different isn't at least partially the answer? That's all I want to know.

Exactly and I don't feel it is asking too much from the City to speak to those question.

That's especially true now that we have managed to pass MAPS 3.

Originally Posted by soonerguru
They're going to have to earn my support by showing some respect to the citizens who pay them. They have not shown this.

Also, they need to understand that their scorched-earth approach isn't the proper way to negotiate. We shouldn't just roll over for them after this little display of hubris. This isn't the appropriate way to "get" the city to negotiate.

I'm not trying to be intentionally argumentative but I respectfully disagree with this statement.

For one thing the men and women who serve as police officers and firefighters have already proven themselves by virtue of their jobs for me. Nothing more is needed.

For another I am going to chalk up the disrespect that I've seen from both sides to passion about the election. I do believe that firefighters and police officers are also citizens and should be accorded the same leeway that everyone else gets when it comes to campaigns.

And yet another point is that their side lost the election. Beating a dead horse is just not something that I find worthwhile.

There is a lot to be said for forgiving and moving on and we do depend upon these entities for a good deal.

Better to get everyone mobilized to figure out what the problems are and to solve them.

[mugofbeer]

Another point is taking a look to see how the rank and file reacts to the loss. If they come out as vocal and radical as the union leadership then that can evoke one reaction. However, if as I suspect, a large number of them really don't support the union's scorched-earth tactics, then we can have a much more civil and constructive dialogue.

[Wambo36]

But I think I would like to take the opportunity to gloat for just a minute. Hey trolls, I hope you've enjoyed your time on OKCTalk!

Iron76, Wambo, Barnold, etc. I'm doing my happy dance right now.

I told you guys this was a quixotic effort on your part and will backfire ultimately. You tried to screw the citizens by killing MAPS, and now you've failed. Now, good luck coming to the citizens asking for help.

I still support what you do, but it will take me a while to get over your scorched-earth approach to MAPS.

Sorry I missed the dance. Bed time and all. I don't know what I did to deserve the troll designation. If disagreeing with your position is all it takes, so be it. I've tried to put forth my side of the argument in a respectful way. If it didn't come across that way, I apologize. No hard feelings here. Congrats.

As far as the postings as to our dealings with the city, we're fairly limited on our end. We beat them in arbitration almost every time we go there. That's the extent of our recourse. They then have the option to take us to court. We have beaten them there also. Now the last option, after they have lost in the first two forums, is to take us to a vote of the people. If we lose in arbitration it's game over for us. I think the fact that we almost always beaten them, when judged by an independent arbitrator, should tell you something about their tactics. Not whining, just informing. Once again, Congrats.

[megax11]

The greed shown by the police and fire knows no bounds.

What I don't get is how 60 million a year plus a percentage of tax revenues isn't enough for both, fire and police.

That's 30 million for both, and how is that 30 million a piece being used so far? I don't see 30 million dollars worth on both ends, being put to good use, and they both want more?

Yeah, I'd like to see exactly how the 60 mil+ is alotted as is.

[bornhere]

What police and fire did was no different than what the chamber did. As has been pointed out elsewhere on OKCTALK, the convention center was on the MAPS3 agenda because the chamber refused to support it if it didn't have a convention center.

[mugofbeer]

A convention center is something that is naturally MAPS related. Hiring more police and fire isn't. That is a permanent expense to the city and must be paid for out of some form of permanent tax revenue. Its like the stupidity of hiring police and fire out of a bond issue - the expenses and the revenues don't match.

Plus, there's a lot of stuff said on here that isn't gospel. Where is it written other than by someone on here that the COC wouldn't support MAPS3 if a convention center wasn't included?

[flippity]

But I think I would like to take the opportunity to gloat for just a minute. Hey trolls, I hope you've enjoyed your time on OKCTalk!

Iron76, Wambo, Barnold, etc. I'm doing my happy dance right now.

I told you guys this was a quixotic effort on your part and will backfire ultimately. You tried to screw the citizens by killing MAPS, and now you've failed. Now, good luck coming to the citizens asking for help.

I still support what you do, but it will take me a while to get over your scorched-earth approach to MAPS.

you weren't trying THAT hard to be gracious.

[andy157]

The problem, as I see it, is that we don't really have enough information to assess who is "right" and who is "wrong" in your interactions with the city. To be perfectly honest with you, the word "union" always makes me suspicious that I'm paying too much. What is a fair salary, what are fair hours, etc. aren't easy things for us to understand. There are almost always two sides to every argument, and the truth is usually somewhere in between.

As I've said before, I have serious questions about the emergency response service the fire department has, and, looking at what other cities have done in reaction to the same problem, I think there might be alternate ways to address the problem. So then, my question is, does the fire department really need an extra 200 employees?

I agree that it's essential that we have good city services. Sometimes there's a disconnect, like there always is in life, between what we want and what we need. I cannot bring myself to assume a union knows what we need, so, I'm going to have to say that as an individual, I don't have enough data to know which side is definitely the right one, especially where the firemen are concerned. But, I'm willing to learn more and be educated. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, simply saying I cannot be sure you're right. However, if we're going to be voting on this issue, I will make sure I learn everything I can. That's as much of an olive branch as I'm willing to extend.

A friendly FYI, it's not the Fire that needs an extra 200, that's the Cops #s. I don't know if the Police need an extra 200 or not. Right now though, if Fire had what the tax CALLED for, and what the City IS COLLECTING the tax for, and CLAIMS to be paying for they would not be in that bad of shape. They will need quite a few more when the 3 new stations are built. But as I have said here over and over again(whoops Brad Neece can nail me on that...oh well)it has been 10 years and they have not started the first 2, if that trend continues the staffing for the last 3 won't be needed for another 15 or 20 years.

[andy157]

Please supply this information: In 1999 how many of the 999 members were "on the beat", out there patrolling and doing the day to day interactions, & how many were in admin? Today, how many of those 937 are admin vs field? Percentages would be better if you have it. -THanks

Go read Dougs blog. The great MAPS 3 debate I think it is

[andy157]

I don't live in OKC but it seems the the rank and file of the Police Department and the Fire Department put their faith in a campaign proposed by their union leadership....................and it backfired on them. It's not the first time this has happened to a union and it won't be the last. A good move on the part of the police & firemen would be to elect new union membership. This would go a long way towards mending fences with the city & the citizens.

A vote for MAPS 3 wasn't a vote against policemen & firemen. No one disagrees that they have staffing problems. It's time for the police & fire department to work with the city & it's citizens to come up with a creative way to solve the problem. Keep in mind that you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Trying to defeat MAPS 3 was a vinegar approach.

Nobody wants to believe this. Maybe they do not care. Maybe they're just not hearing. Maybe they do not want to hear. But the fact is this. Firefighters Union President Phil Sipe DID NOT force the Firefighters to oppose MAPS, nor did the Executive Board. At the Union meeting he presented and offered the pros, and the cons, the whats, and what ifs. After that the members, by majority vote, MANDATED that the Union oppose MAPS.

[proud2Bsooner]

Nobody wants to believe this. Maybe they do not care. Maybe they're just not hearing. Maybe they do not want to hear. But the fact is this. Firefighters Union President Phil Sipe DID NOT force the Firefighters to oppose MAPS, nor did the Executive Board. At the Union meeting he presented and offered the pros, and the cons, the whats, and what ifs. After that the members, by majority vote, MANDATED that the Union oppose MAPS.

Doesn't matter now. Damage done. People voted.

[andy157]

Doesn't matter now. Damage done. People voted.

Well then I guess it doesn't matter.

[Midtowner]

Nobody wants to believe this. Maybe they do not care. Maybe they're just not hearing. Maybe they do not want to hear. But the fact is this. Firefighters Union President Phil Sipe DID NOT force the Firefighters to oppose MAPS, nor did the Executive Board. At the Union meeting he presented and offered the pros, and the cons, the whats, and what ifs. After that the members, by majority vote, MANDATED that the Union oppose MAPS.

And if the 'no' campaign not been run in such a scorched earth manner, y'all wouldn't have these issues with image.

For me, it's just business and politics. Other folks take it much more personally.

[delvecio44]

I'm glad to see that you support police and fire. I will tell you why police officers will never be willing to give up three 10 hour shifts with out a fight. 1 the shifts all over lap. 3rd over laps 1st by 30 min. 1st over laps 2nd by 1 hour. 2nd over laps 3rd by 4hrs 30 min. There are many reasons for this. No laps in coverage when one shift is getting off the other is coming on and there are always police in the field. That way if you are a bad guy you cant increase you odds of getting away with commiting a crime at shift change. Also second and third shift over lap for 4hrs 3o min. this is to put two shifts out when the highest number of calls is coming in. It also gives every officer in patrol every other weekend off for time with thier family even if guy is just out of rookie school. If you happen to work 3rd shift you can also still have friends and family outside of cops. Otherwise how would you go from a day time sleep pattern to a night time sleep pattern in two days with out staying awake for 24hr strait? I wish the public who dont have police ties would take a little time to learn more about why they did what they did. Would you be willing to give up your freedom of speech for your job? The union is there only voice. They love this city and its poeple. If you have a question I will do my best to get it answered for you without any political filtering just a street cops point of view. the guy you could get when you call 911.

[flintysooner]

I'm glad to see that you support police and fire. I will tell you why police officers will never be willing to give up three 10 hour shifts with out a fight. 1 the shifts all over lap. 3rd over laps 1st by 30 min. 1st over laps 2nd by 1 hour. 2nd over laps 3rd by 4hrs 30 min. There are many reasons for this. No laps in coverage when one shift is getting off the other is coming on and there are always police in the field. That way if you are a bad guy you cant increase you odds of getting away with commiting a crime at shift change. Also second and third shift over lap for 4hrs 3o min. this is to put two shifts out when the highest number of calls is coming in. It also gives every officer in patrol every other weekend off for time with thier family even if guy is just out of rookie school. If you happen to work 3rd shift you can also still have friends and family outside of cops. Otherwise how would you go from a day time sleep pattern to a night time sleep pattern in two days with out staying awake for 24hr strait? I wish the public who dont have police ties would take a little time to learn more about why they did what they did. Would you be willing to give up your freedom of speech for your job? The union is there only voice. They love this city and its poeple. If you have a question I will do my best to get it answered for you without any political filtering just a street cops point of view. the guy you could get when you call 911.

Thanks. I really did not know any of this and appreciate reading your comments. It makes more sense to me now.

[jbrown84]

Don't judge every person in uniform for the actions of the group. I think every citizen should treat police and fire personnel with the respect you would expect them to give you.

I don't think anyone is advocating disrespecting the individuals, but instead hesitating to cooperate with the unions that took on these tactics.

Soonerguru, we have a 92% approval rating with our citizens,

You might need to take another survey after the last few weeks.

I'm with betts. I'm willing to hear out both sides on this. I'm not convinced that more manpower is the only solution. We need to hear out other options, then decide what to do.

[Midtowner]

I wish the public who dont have police ties would take a little time to learn more about why they did what they did.

I actually did this and I'm glad I did. Other departments have these alternative shifts and the officers in those departments have extremely high divorce rates and other problems.

I think OKC does a great job in attracting top quality police officers and to continue to do so, we have to make the total package something which is appealing.

[barnold]

Sooner,

That was gracious? I’m glad I’m not around your house at Christmas time. I see you really dug deep for that one. Sorry for the late response but I’ve been out with the rest of the “goon” squad at the fire station today and I don’t get the opportunity to post until later in the evenings. (Been trying since 5pm)

Let me start off with congrats to those that were in support of maps 3. I hope that all the hopes and dreams of it come true and create thousands of jobs and increase the tax revenue for the city. As I’ve said all along “I support the maps projects but not the most recent one”. The voters have spoken and now it’s our job to the city leaders accountable for what they have promised.

As a longtime lurker of Okctalk but only frequently a poster; aka troll, I would like to thank all those longtime residents of this site that usually contribute their opinions and post accurate and fair information. Doug is at the top of the list regardless of the issues. It was only due to the lies, half truths and basic nastiness of some of the pro maps people that I even got involved in posting to this forum. As a follower, I’ve always been able to read thru the nuts that post radical thoughts and ideas in the various forums and have been able to find the truth by following the evidence. While I didn’t expect to be treated with “kit” gloves when I began posting, I was surprised by the ignorance of many supposed informed and frequent posters. I been on both sides of the “blue collar”, “white collar” and know how the game is played to suit the side that you are on at the moment. I’m glad to hear some of the reason posted by those here not wanting to throw out the baby with the bathwater post election time. Many here are “union” bashers; many are unaware of what their police and fire personnel do for a living and I suspect that many have never had to play the politics game with they city. I have had the opportunity to do so for the past 23 years and can tell you first hand that sometimes it’s not pretty. But that’s really a topic for another post.

I wanted to tell all of you “thank you” for igniting the fire (so to speak) in me to respond to any of the topics that I believe I have adequate knowledge and opinion of in the future. Rest assured that you will begin to see my sometimes “strong and passionate” opinion of those things that I know to be true; and to call out the “nut and liars” that try to influence those cold and timid souls that know neither victory nor defeat.

FYI- The City of Oklahoma City broke ground on new Fire Station #6 today. It was part of the 2000 bond issue that was approved by our gracious and supportive public that we serve; even when they aren’t very happy with us. They are why we exist. Not the city leadership that sometimes mires the facts. But I’m sure we’ll get to discuss things like here shortly.

Hoping all stay warm on this cold night.

[Midtowner]

barnold, I hope you stick around. I think that having direct contact with fire and police is valuable for the public. Sometimes it's just a heck of a lot better to get your facts from the horse's mouth than it is to get it from the PIO.

Thank you for your service.

[barnold]

Midtowner,
Thank you for the invite. As I said, I've watched for a long time but am just now getting involved and intend to stay involved.

I agree, it's much easier to make informed decisions when you have the facts from all sides. To that end, the general public has always been free to come into any fire or police station, schedule ride alongs or get really involved in the inner workings in the citizens academies. Unfortunately they only run a handful of these each year and are limited in size.

[kevinpate]

...
FYI- The City of Oklahoma City broke ground on new Fire Station #6 today. ...
Hoping all stay warm on this cold night.

Where is the location for new Station 6?
Staying very warm, but bama based son couldn't help but send a plug that since it was 72 earlier, he had to open a window and shut down his heater.
I told him that's how love/hate moments happen and to be safe until he gets home for the holidays later this month.

Good Christmas coming up. All three kiddos home, granddaughter home, grandson to be also here (well, duh.)

Peace out.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner,
Thank you for the invite. As I said, I've watched for a long time but am just now getting involved and intend to stay involved.

I agree, it's much easier to make informed decisions when you have the facts from all sides. To that end, the general public has always been free to come into any fire or police station, schedule ride alongs or get really involved in the inner workings in the citizens academies. Unfortunately they only run a handful of these each year and are limited in size.

It's tough to do that when most folks have to work. I for one had the privilege of covering a lot of the activities of the Edmond FD for several months when I was working on my undergrad at UCO (I was an anchor/reporter for the UCO news program). I learned a lot about the local fire department, how things worked, etc.

It's amazing how intense and in depth and constant training is at the Edmond FD. I can only assume OKC is the same.

As far as police go, I've been planning (but haven't quite gotten around to) a ride along with a fraternity brother for quite some time. I've heard some pretty amazing war stories from my friends who interned with the D.A.'s office about their ride alongs.

I have tremendous respect for our emergency services and I hope that as a city, we can give them whatever they need to get the job done.

[barnold]

Kevinpate,
New station 6 is going to be located just NE of Bass Pro site. It is being cleaned up by the OERB since it used to be an old oil well site. Actual construction on the building should begin in about 3 wks. or so. It will replace the old #6 which used to sit just north of Presby hospital on Lincoln.

Could be worse weather, heard from a FF friend of mine in Green Bay and they had 14" of snow on the ground at 10am and were expecting 40mph winds tonight.

[barnold]

Midtown,
I frequently work with the Edmond FD since my second job is training firefighters. They put just as much time and effort into staying trained and ready as the OCFD does and are good to work with.
Understandable about time commitments. My wife and kids would shoot me if I took on another project. They're just happy that I drew off for Christmas this year. 1st time in over 20 years that I've been scheduled to work it that I'll be off.