Trying to be gracious

[Mikemarsh51]

You didn't list me but I will chime in. I would remind you that it is on the city council docket next Tuesday to vote to implement the City managers lay offs of city personnel. Possible up to 29 firefighters, you are aware now. If we are a big league city and we don't want to lose momentum how do we explain these job losses. Some of you are gracious and I thank you for the private messages of yours, thank you and again congrat's.

[EBAH]

Iron76 is banned.

As for the others, I'm 100% willing to support whatever they're running up the flagpole to better fund police and fire.

I couldn't agree more, previous posts included. Honestly, the thing I'm celebrating tonight, in addition to the obvious excitement about the coming projects, is a constructive and cooperative tone returning to the board. I'll be happy to see in a month or two someone post a link or comment about the state of our police or fire services and see a discussion follow about how best to improve the situation, instead of descending in to a childish argument.

I too would be happy to support a bond issue, or small sales tax increase to augment the budget of our Police and Fire services. The thing that saddened me about the way this whole anti maps campaign was framed, was this "for us or against us" mentality. I am a whole hearted MAPS supporter, but I also know that our police and firefighters are the backbone of our city. We can't let the bad behavior of some obnoxious campaigners sour our feelings for our civil services.

[rcjunkie]

I'm actually ready to put all of this behind me and be the bigger man. I told a friend of mine (police officer) that I'd be just as fervently for a *permanent* tax increase to benefit emergency services as I was for MAPS and I wasn't kidding. If nothing else, I think police and fire have brought some serious issues to our attention -- issues which need to be addressed quickly. We won. Great. But what without top-notch police and fire departments, having the coolest toys in our city ain't gonna be worth much.

These emergency services really do need our support. Despite the wrongheaded approach of the union bosses trying to impose their will on the city, they did have real issues.

I hope we can all work together to address whatever issues need to be addressed with our emergency services. And if that means a tax hike? Then so be it.

Police / Fire already have a dedicated sales tax

[rcjunkie]

You didn't list me but I will chime in. I would remind you that it is on the city council docket next Tuesday to vote to implement the City managers lay offs of city personnel. Possible up to 29 firefighters, you are aware now. If we are a big league city and we don't want to lose momentum how do we explain these job losses. Some of you are gracious and I thank you for the private messages of yours, thank you and again congrat's.

Mikemarsh51, the votes have been counted and MAPS3 has passed, as a retired OKC employee, I will always support my fellow OKC Employees, Police/Fire/AFSCME and Management and will fight for what they need and deserve. Thanks for the congrats.

[Midtowner]

Police / Fire already have a dedicated sales tax

The data has been presented. The funds going into those departments clearly aren't getting the job done. You can either support slashing the pay of police and fire [and be laughed at] or you can support additional funding. They need it now. They cannot wait for future revenues to kick in.

Public safety ain't free. That's life in the big city. Either we can follow up this visionary MAPS vote with an additional permanent dedication of revenue to emergency services, or we can look forward to the middle class folks in this fine city leaving when it becomes too dangerous to raise a family here.

Things ain't getting better without more money for emergency services and there's no time like the present to start supporting such an issue.

[soonerguru]

The data has been presented. The funds going into those departments clearly aren't getting the job done. You can either support slashing the pay of police and fire [and be laughed at] or you can support additional funding. They need it now. They cannot wait for future revenues to kick in.

Public safety ain't free. That's life in the big city. Either we can follow up this visionary MAPS vote with an additional permanent dedication of revenue to emergency services, or we can look forward to the middle class folks in this fine city leaving when it becomes too dangerous to raise a family here.

Things ain't getting better without more money for emergency services and there's no time like the present to start supporting such an issue.

They're going to have to earn my support by showing some respect to the citizens who pay them. They have not shown this.

Also, they need to understand that their scorched-earth approach isn't the proper way to negotiate. We shouldn't just roll over for them after this little display of hubris. This isn't the appropriate way to "get" the city to negotiate.

[Doug Loudenback]

I'm actually ready to put all of this behind me and be the bigger man. I told a friend of mine (police officer) that I'd be just as fervently for a *permanent* tax increase to benefit emergency services as I was for MAPS and I wasn't kidding. If nothing else, I think police and fire have brought some serious issues to our attention -- issues which need to be addressed quickly. We won. Great. But what without top-notch police and fire departments, having the coolest toys in our city ain't gonna be worth much.

These emergency services really do need our support. Despite the wrongheaded approach of the union bosses trying to impose their will on the city, they did have real issues.

I hope we can all work together to address whatever issues need to be addressed with our emergency services. And if that means a tax hike? Then so be it.

Agree completely.

[Doug Loudenback]

They're going to have to earn my support by showing some respect to the citizens who pay them. They have not shown this.

Also, they need to understand that their scorched-earth approach isn't the proper way to negotiate. We shouldn't just roll over for them after this little display of hubris. This isn't the appropriate way to "get" the city to negotiate.

The best thing one can do with real or imaginary enemies is to make them friends. No need to gloat. Police and fire services are valuable to all of us and their needs should be met. The election is done and is in the past.

[Mikemarsh51]

Let me ask as nicely as I can to get Soonerguru's take on how we should proceed. The city has taken us to arbitration each year of the last 6. What is it that you would suggest we do? I hope you know how negotiations work? One side has a set of demands and so does the other. And you try to come to an understanding and an agreement. Yet the city has consistantly walked away with somewhat of a scorched earth attitude themselves. We can't take them to arbitration, so why is it we keep ending up there. Open for suggestions!!!

[Thundercitizen]

Let me ask as nicely as I can to get Soonerguru's take on how we should proceed. The city has taken us to arbitration each year of the last 6. What is it that you would suggest we do? I hope you know how negotiations work? One side has a set of demands and so does the other. And you try to come to an understanding and an agreement. Yet the city has consistantly walked away with somewhat of a scorched earth attitude themselves. We can't take them to arbitration, so why is it we keep ending up there. Open for suggestions!!!

Is there the slightest possibility that a revision in projected revenue sets the table for a more amenable "readjustment" in the City's/Mayor's in the approach to negotiations, now that MAPs has passed.

[soonerguru]

Let me ask as nicely as I can to get Soonerguru's take on how we should proceed. The city has taken us to arbitration each year of the last 6. What is it that you would suggest we do? I hope you know how negotiations work? One side has a set of demands and so does the other. And you try to come to an understanding and an agreement. Yet the city has consistantly walked away with somewhat of a scorched earth attitude themselves. We can't take them to arbitration, so why is it we keep ending up there. Open for suggestions!!!

You know, I would have taken your side, without a second thought, before Not This Maps. Crappy way to go about it.

I said at the time when your union was considering taking this approach that I would view it as an attack on the citizens, not City Hall. I still largely believe this.

There's a chance that your efforts to trash MAPS may have paid off, which would have hurt the citizens. Now you're asking me to just "get on board."

It's going to take some time.

[oneforone]

Don't judge every person in uniform for the actions of the group. I think every citizen should treat police and fire personnel with the respect you would expect them to give you.

For all we know, a large group of police officers and fire fighters helped pass MAPS. They just kept their mouth shut and went to work every day and acted as if they supported the issue. I know many people that work in union afflilated jobs that say "The company, school district, city, state, pay my check not the union." They carry a union card for the benefits of membership and not the politics.

If we citizens start turning hostile on police and fire, it may backfire. It could lead to strict enforcement of every law or a complete disregard for their duties. That 9.5 minutes could turn into 15 or 20 minutes.

Everybody needs to just move on to the next issue of the day and call it a win for OKC.

[betts]

The problem, as I see it, is that we don't really have enough information to assess who is "right" and who is "wrong" in your interactions with the city. To be perfectly honest with you, the word "union" always makes me suspicious that I'm paying too much. What is a fair salary, what are fair hours, etc. aren't easy things for us to understand. There are almost always two sides to every argument, and the truth is usually somewhere in between.

As I've said before, I have serious questions about the emergency response service the fire department has, and, looking at what other cities have done in reaction to the same problem, I think there might be alternate ways to address the problem. So then, my question is, does the fire department really need an extra 200 employees?

I agree that it's essential that we have good city services. Sometimes there's a disconnect, like there always is in life, between what we want and what we need. I cannot bring myself to assume a union knows what we need, so, I'm going to have to say that as an individual, I don't have enough data to know which side is definitely the right one, especially where the firemen are concerned. But, I'm willing to learn more and be educated. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, simply saying I cannot be sure you're right. However, if we're going to be voting on this issue, I will make sure I learn everything I can. That's as much of an olive branch as I'm willing to extend.

[Mikemarsh51]

Soonerguru, we have a 92% approval rating with our citizens, I may just have to believe you are in that 8%. and there is nothing I can do to change that. You keep speaking of the citizens. You seem to discount that I am part of that group as is the rest of my family of 5.

Here is what I'm all about. In 1999, we had 999 members. Today it is 937. Not the right direction for a big league city, they are threatening to cut more. I know this job I have done it for 25 years now. I'm yelling that something has to be done. We still have 3 brand new GO bond issue fire stations to build how in the world are we going to staff them?

[Mikemarsh51]

Betts bless your heart, our working conditions are not going to change. The city could not afford to change our hours because they would have to hire 1.5 more shifts. Ther not going to buy smaller trucks or send a smaller crew. You have to get passed that.
I have tried to present you with every piece of info I could. I have to say and I'm not being rude "you don't listen very well". You can look at all of my old posts and find out all you could want to know. I have presented you with information tirelessly.

[soonerguru]

Soonerguru, we have a 92% approval rating with our citizens, I may just have to believe you are in that 8%. and there is nothing I can do to change that. You keep speaking of the citizens. You seem to discount that I am part of that group as is the rest of my family of 5.

Here is what I'm all about. In 1999, we had 999 members. Today it is 937. Not the right direction for a big league city, they are threatening to cut more. I know this job I have done it for 25 years now. I'm yelling that something has to be done. We still have 3 brand new GO bond issue fire stations to build how in the world are we going to staff them?

Dude, you don't read what I write. I told you I've always been supportive of police and fire. Always.

That is until you threatened the future of this city by going after MAPS, which has been the best thing going in OKC for the last 50 years.

You will not acknowledge that your approach has pissed a lot of people off, people who have always been supportive of you. Why don't you acknowledge this? Was this Not This Maps campaign your idea or something?

I'm not sure what poll you're quoting, but a far sight fewer than 92 percent of citizens went along with your anti-MAPS crusade.

[betts]

Betts bless your heart, our working conditions are not going to change. The city could not afford to change our hours because they would have to hire 1.5 more shifts. Ther not going to buy smaller trucks or send a smaller crew. You have to get passed that.
I have tried to present you with every piece of info I could. I have to say and I'm not being rude "you don't listen very well". You can look at all of my old posts and find out all you could want to know. I have presented you with information tirelessly.

I think it's probably time for us to take a little break on this subject, and give everyone else here a break.

[Spartan]

If that's your attitude, I hope you're on the losing end of a 9 1/2 minute average response time for an emergency call...

Really -- even if you have the best of the best security systems, it's going to be about 15 minutes before the police can get to your house after someone kicks in your door.

How much of your stuff can be stolen in 15 minutes?

I spend a lot more than I would with a %.5 or %.75 or even %1 sales tax per year on security monitoring, which is of questionable value than I would spend to get adequate police and fire protection.

An additional sales tax for emergency services is really a no-brainer.

This is the reality about this kind of thing. Paying for security monitoring, or even a huge tax for public safety, it's not really going to financially benefit you in the long run because public safety is a proven money drain, different from the MAPS projects. A MAPS citizen oversight board isn't a union. The police and fire have union overlords.

And as for security, yeah there are people who that will benefit by preventing robberies. But the likelihood is that it won't happen to you. I would be a lot more likely to invest that money in the stock market or something, and then I wouldn't have anything to be stolen in the first place because all of my money is tied up long term in stocks anyway, and you can't steal those from my house or apartment. Paying for security monitoring is kind of like buying extending warranties on every single thing you buy. It's stupid, and it's financially unwise to waste your money like that.

Let's be honest, if someone's going to murder you, they're going to murder you. If you are so angry with me that you are going to kill me you will find a way to do it, because of the extremes of the act itself. The solution: don't piss anyone off that bad. If you're going to rob someone's house, you're going to do it, period. And anyone whose had the crappy luck to have their house robbed knows the God's honest truth about that.. once your stuff is gone, it's gone. The police aren't going to catch who did it.

If you pay for a massive overhaul of police, this is what you're going to get: there will be a speed trap hiding behind every single bush or sign. Cops will be tailing everyone after 9 pm and writing trumped up tickets to people who forget to signal for a lane change. Tell me how that cuts down on murders. Tell me how that cuts down on rape, robbery, larceny, and all the other bad stuff that happens. The answer is that it doesn't. The answer is that police work does not significantly put dents in that kind of stuff. The best thing that you can do is just create an environment where people don't murder, rob, rape, etc. We'd be better investing in LED lights to cover all dark alleys than a thousand police officers to patrol dark alleys, even if they stuck to dark alleys and not the speed traps that I know they'll just beef up if we add to their payroll.

[flintysooner]

Regardless of everything else said it is 1) just not right to me that firefighters who schedule vacations in advance should have to cancel them; 2) that we have only one or very few police on call for huge areas of the city; and 3) the acrimonious relationship that now exists as normal between the parties.

I think these are real problems. They've been raised by the union members. They've not been explained by any City representative I've written even though I've received nice replies and phone calls. I've talked to enough people on both sides however to make me believe the problems actually exist.

Frankly I believe these issues are more management problems that should have some kind of resolution available. In my personal experience union negotiations do not have to always be acrimonious.

I'd like to actually hear someone from the City side though explain these issues in some kind of reasonable, logical manner.

Maybe the problem is with the existing chiefs and/or the policies and procedures of the departments. I have no idea but so far it seems to me that no one else does either.

[BoulderSooner]

Soonerguru, we have a 92% approval rating with our citizens, I may just have to believe you are in that 8%. and there is nothing I can do to change that. You keep speaking of the citizens. You seem to discount that I am part of that group as is the rest of my family of 5.

Here is what I'm all about. In 1999, we had 999 members. Today it is 937. Not the right direction for a big league city, they are threatening to cut more. I know this job I have done it for 25 years now. I'm yelling that something has to be done. We still have 3 brand new GO bond issue fire stations to build how in the world are we going to staff them?

is that the right direction?? myabe 937 police could be the exact number we need as a city ... i don't know ... but i sure don't trust the police union to tell me how many we need ... Has the OKC police union ever said that you have enough employees?? in its history?? i would guess no .. because that is the nature of unions .. they always want more people and more money ..

while everyone else in this country is looking at how to makes things more efficient the unions want MORE .... i for one am not going to just hand them more money unless they can do 2 things .. 1 show that they can run more efficiently and 2. after 1. is done that they still need more personal

[PennyQuilts]

But I think I would like to take the opportunity to gloat for just a minute. Hey trolls, I hope you've enjoyed your time on OKCTalk!

Iron76, Wambo, Barnold, etc. I'm doing my happy dance right now.

I told you guys this was a quixotic effort on your part and will backfire ultimately. You tried to screw the citizens by killing MAPS, and now you've failed. Now, good luck coming to the citizens asking for help.

I still support what you do, but it will take me a while to get over your scorched-earth approach to MAPS.

After that post, they've got nuthin on you, Bubba. You just took a detour from the high road. I have already posted that I agree some of them shot themselves in the foot with their comments but come on, this isn't the time. Let it go.

[Redskin 70]

Let me ask as nicely as I can to get Soonerguru's take on how we should proceed. The city has taken us to arbitration each year of the last 6. What is it that you would suggest we do? I hope you know how negotiations work? One side has a set of demands and so does the other. And you try to come to an understanding and an agreement. Yet the city has consistantly walked away with somewhat of a scorched earth attitude themselves. We can't take them to arbitration, so why is it we keep ending up there. Open for suggestions!!!

Excuse me.................you cant take the city to arbitration????????????????///

Dont blow that snake oil around. title 51 is very clear on that issue.
Further, Most of your arbitrations have went against the city.
Maybe its not the city's fault as much as the unions.
You need to take a grand look at the pay and benefit schedule for OKC.
WIth pay and benefits it cost the city, ergo the taxpayers nearly $100,000 for 1 (ONE) position. Heck, health insurance alone for OKC is a killer let alone the other associated cost like retirement, social security etc etc etc

[betts]

Regardless of everything else said it is 1) just not right to me that firefighters who schedule vacations in advance should have to cancel them; 2) that we have only one or very few police on call for huge areas of the city; and 3) the acrimonious relationship that now exists as normal between the parties.

I think these are real problems. They've been raised by the union members. They've not been explained by any City representative I've written even though I've received nice replies and phone calls. I've talked to enough people on both sides however to make me believe the problems actually exist.

Frankly I believe these issues are more management problems that should have some kind of resolution available. In my personal experience union negotiations do not have to always be acrimonious.

I'd like to actually hear someone from the City side though explain these issues in some kind of reasonable, logical manner.

Maybe the problem is with the existing chiefs and/or the policies and procedures of the departments. I have no idea but so far it seems to me that no one else does either.

I agree with you, flintysooner. I just want to hear both sides. And I want to hear if anyone has been thoughtful in looking at personnel issues and whether there might be more efficient ways to use the employees we do have. Are there pet projects that haven't really been proven to be of value that utilize personnel? Are we top heavy in administration, always a concern in a department that contains government employees. Are there different ways we can utilize personnel that would make them more efficient? As I've said, before more is the answer, are we sure that different isn't at least partially the answer? That's all I want to know.

[loulang2000]

Soonerguru, we have a 92% approval rating with our citizens, I may just have to believe you are in that 8%. and there is nothing I can do to change that. You keep speaking of the citizens. You seem to discount that I am part of that group as is the rest of my family of 5.

Here is what I'm all about. In 1999, we had 999 members. Today it is 937. Not the right direction for a big league city, they are threatening to cut more. I know this job I have done it for 25 years now. I'm yelling that something has to be done. We still have 3 brand new GO bond issue fire stations to build how in the world are we going to staff them?

Please supply this information: In 1999 how many of the 999 members were "on the beat", out there patrolling and doing the day to day interactions, & how many were in admin? Today, how many of those 937 are admin vs field? Percentages would be better if you have it. -THanks

[gen70]

They're going to have to earn my support by showing some respect to the citizens who pay them. They have not shown this.

Also, they need to understand that their scorched-earth approach isn't the proper way to negotiate. We shouldn't just roll over for them after this little display of hubris. This isn't the appropriate way to "get" the city to negotiate.

Agreed.