Maps 3 - Time For Decision

[soonerguru]

Doug,
Its not because I dont believe in or want OKC to progress.
Its I dont trust the elected officials.
They cant seem to deliver city services as it stands now.
We're in a budget shortfall, we're asking the low income and fixed income to pay for this for a lot longer then previously.
The mass transit portion for example is a small size, and most likely not alleviate any traffic jams or heavy use areas.
Let them come to us with smaller projects and we can judge the progress as we go.
Why are we going for the convention/tourism dollar only?
If in addition with MAPS we had a more diverse population and lose the "redneck" mentality that still bubbles inside a sizable population here in OKC.
Do you know what in addition grows a city?
Its the welcome mat towards diversity,& creative people.

MAPS 3 is what will deliver us the diversity and make this place a better city for creative people. Thanks gmwise for your support of MAPS 3!

[kevinpate]

> Why are we going for the convention/tourism dollar only?

For the same reason other communities do. Outside dollars come in, get spent and the folks spending those then depart. Your community benefits from those dollars. And in addition, the residents also have access to the facilities.

A beauty of MAPs is you're by and large not relying on covering interest on debt (though yes there is some), so your costs are down.

You're relying on outsiders to help raise the money, one estimate I've seen is in the 30% range for all MAPs dollars come from touristas and other out of towners, commuters and generic passer throughs.

So while MAPs is not solely about bringing in tourista funds, every dollar that does come from outside OKC is a dollar not needed for an OKC resident.

On a much smaller scale, it's why Norman has a new conference center and hotel, by far the nicest in our county and for miles and miles except for downtown OKC. We also want dollars from elsewhere coming into our community, so the developer for the Embassy was heavily courted to come here with it.

I like our growth down here, and I like what OKC is doing up there, and I think positive growth in OKC also helps us in Norman.

[Popsy]

Good grief Wise, you have aligned yourself on the "redneck" side of the Maps3 issue and you seem to be complaining about it bubbling inside a sizable population here in OKC. Seems to me that diversity has a place for rednecks also. Or do you feel you are one of the creative people that is not being welcomed? I do not understand your position. The people you claim not to trust are the people that "we the people" elected. If you do not trust them for something specifically, you need to start a recall petition.

[Doug Loudenback]

GMWise, as I said, I have no illusion that anything I've written will prompt anyone who has already decided to vote no to change his/her mind. My audience was those who are undecided.

[gmwise]

> Why are we going for the convention/tourism dollar only?

For the same reason other communities do. Outside dollars come in, get spent and the folks spending those then depart. Your community benefits from those dollars. And in addition, the residents also have access to the facilities.

A beauty of MAPs is you're by and large not relying on covering interest on debt (though yes there is some), so your costs are down.

You're relying on outsiders to help raise the money, one estimate I've seen is in the 30% range for all MAPs dollars come from touristas and other out of towners, commuters and generic passer throughs.

So while MAPs is not solely about bringing in tourista funds, every dollar that does come from outside OKC is a dollar not needed for an OKC resident.

On a much smaller scale, it's why Norman has a new conference center and hotel, by far the nicest in our county and for miles and miles except for downtown OKC. We also want dollars from elsewhere coming into our community, so the developer for the Embassy was heavily courted to come here with it.

I like our growth down here, and I like what OKC is doing up there, and I think positive growth in OKC also helps us in Norman.

I am just saying the high cost of fuel, the health and security concerns as well as the cutbacks companies and individual have make most recently.
Tourism and the Convention business is NOT a sure thing.

[soonerguru]

I am just saying the high cost of fuel, the health and security concerns as well as the cutbacks companies and individual have make most recently.
Tourism and the Convention business is NOT a sure thing.

Nothing is a sure thing. But we do have a track record and the ability to project within a certain margin.

Our tourism dollars have grown exponentially. With a nice convention center capable of holding larger events, we will get more convention business. This is good for our economy because guests spend money here, pay room taxes, pay sales taxes, give a boost to our service industries, shop our retail stores, etc.

There is not much downside.

Of course, we also could get hit by a giant meteor.

[gmwise]

Good grief Wise, you have aligned yourself on the "redneck" side of the Maps3 issue and you seem to be complaining about it bubbling inside a sizable population here in OKC. Seems to me that diversity has a place for rednecks also. Or do you feel you are one of the creative people that is not being welcomed? I do not understand your position. The people you claim not to trust are the people that "we the people" elected. If you do not trust them for something specifically, you need to start a recall petition.

If you want MAPS3 to include what I define as diversity, you need to rid yourselves of people like Sally Kern types.
Its not the only thing but when you have backwards people like that.
They set Oklahoma and Oklahoma City back years if not decades.
It is already hard to encourage some to consider moving here to work at local employers

[soonerguru]

If you want MAPS3 to include what I define as diversity, you need to rid yourselves of people like Sally Kern types.
Its not the only thing but when you have backwards people like that.
They set Oklahoma and Oklahoma City back years if not decades.
It is already hard to encourage some to consider moving here to work at local employers

Who is on Sally Kern's side? Not me. And if I had to guess, I would be willing to bet Mrs. Kern is as anti-MAPS as she can get.

FWIW, the anti-MAPS crowd seems to be a bastion of rednecks.

[Doug Loudenback]

If you want MAPS3 to include what I define as diversity, you need to rid yourselves of people like Sally Kern types.
Its not the only thing but when you have backwards people like that.
They set Oklahoma and Oklahoma City back years if not decades.
It is already hard to encourage some to consider moving here to work at local employers

Not disagreeing with what you said about Ms. Kern, but she's not a member of the city council and hopefully never will be.

[gmwise]

Not disagreeing with what you said about Ms. Kern, but she's not a member of the city council and hopefully never will be.

No, thankfully, that bitch is a resident of Warr Acres.

[Doug Loudenback]

No, thankfully, that bitch is a resident of Warr Acres.

Thank you Jesus!

[betts]

Personally, I believe that it's things like MAPS that help diversify us. Many of the projects would appeal to the so-called "creative class". It should make our city appeal to those who are the antithesis of people like Sally Kern.

[okcpulse]

There are people like Sally Kern in every city in this country. it is what it is. We give Sally way too much attention, moreso than the general population who is Oklahoma-unaware.

[Doug Loudenback]

There are people like Sally Kern in every city in this country. it is what it is. We give Sally way too much attention, moreso than the general population who is Oklahoma-unaware.

That's so, but Kern is a high-profile special case. Ignore the roaches and they merely multiply. The squeaky clean guardian of our morality and witch-burner from Warr Acres (who, in the national press, is unfortunately NOT identified as being from Warr Acres but instead is identified with Oklahoma City) has brought derisive national and in one instance international attention to our city on at least two occasions that I'm aware of.

She equates my representative in the state Legislature, Al McAffrey, as being more dangerous to American society than Muslim terrorists. I've never met him, but from what I've observed from a distance he is a class act. I cannot begin to describe the depth and strength of my contempt for Rep. Sally Kern, even though I've not met her, either.

It is simply not sufficient to ignore her. It is incumbent upon us to publicly and aggressively repudiate her and what she stands for at every turn. At least, that's my opinion.

[soonerguru]

There are people like Sally Kern in every city in this country. it is what it is. We give Sally way too much attention, moreso than the general population who is Oklahoma-unaware.

There may be fundy nutjobs in Chicago, Seattle, Portland, New York, Boston, etc., but they don't keep getting reelected -- and indeed, aren't getting elected in the first place.

West OKC/Warr Acres/Bethany is a pretty special place in that regard.

And yes, Betts, you are right about MAPS being a positive catalyst to draw and retain the creative class to our city. It will be very effective in that way.

[Larry OKC]

Our tourism dollars have grown exponentially. With a nice convention center capable of holding larger events, we will get more convention business. This is good for our economy because guests spend money here, pay room taxes, pay sales taxes, give a boost to our service industries, shop our retail stores, etc.

There is not much downside.

I was in general agreement about the Convention Center (though it polls badly because most don't see it as anything they will end up using). It is because of that I supported it. Along the lines of what you were saying, any out of area and especially out of state money is a good thing.

But the downside is it costing us more than we are getting in return? Even if the projected numbers from the Chamber are correct, including the economic impact multiplier effect factored in (6 to 7 times). It will take 25 YEARS (see below)

Doug and I had the following exchange in the Great MAPS 3 debate:

...As the the convention center, I disagree. I am persuaded that a convention center can and does generate lots of money to the local economy. The only questions are (1) how much, and (2) is the amount worth the expense to put the city in a position to garner much larger conventions than we can presently attract? With a convention center smaller than Tulsa and Wichita, we are presumably missing out on convention revenue. That fact doesn't answer #2, but I'd suppose it's answer to be "yes."

The answer to #1 may be in the Chamber's Convention Study:

In recent years, the Cox Center has been responsible for generating an estimated average of $592,000 annually in city sales tax receipts...

So for the $60M in Myriad/Cox upgrades under MAPS 1, we are getting $592K per/year directly. To keep the math simple, presume that none of those tax $$$ would have existed without the upgrades. The $60M was completed 10 years ago in 1999. Quick and dirty math indicates a total of 101 years to for those two numbers to equal out. If the economic impact multiplier is used the number drops but still takes a long time. Rule of thumb says economic impact is the amount of NEW money being spent multiplied by 6 or 7 times (which most of the C.C. business is NEW money and lets presume that it is 100% NEW money). It brings it down to just under 15 years. The Cox will have JUST started paying for itself a few years before it is replaced and we start the cycle all over again.

From the Chamber's study for the new C.C.:

It is estimated that the operations of a new convention center could increase annual tax collections in these specific areas to approximately $1.6 million in city sales tax receipts...

(That's 2.7 times what we get with the Cox, sounds great but when you include the additional cost, not so much).

#2. So, how many years before the new C.C. cost/revenue numbers meet? Quick and dirty math indicates it will be 175 years. Even if talking total economic impact, presuming the full 7 times, that decreases the 175 years down to 25 years. (This is just for the Phase 1 under MAPS 3, when you add in the additional cost for Phase 2 in MAPS 4 or whatever, the time gets extended even further).

mugofbeer asked:

Is the $600K (to round off) of tax receipts directly from rentals of the Cox Facilities or does that include the directly-related receipts from Hotel/Motel taxes, rental car taxes, sales taxes from shopping and restaurants, etc?

Only had the partial quote when I made the initial post. Here is the complete paragraph (Chamber's Convention Study, page 16).

In recent years, the Cox Center has been responsible for generating an estimated average of $592,000 annually in city sales tax receipts; and hotel occupancy taxes totaling $212,000 used for State Fairgrounds improvements, $141,000 used for the Oklahoma City Convention and Visitors Bureau and $35,000 for sponsoring special events. It is estimated that the operations of a new convention center could increase annual tax collections in these specific areas to approximately $1.6 million in city sales tax receipts, $580,000 in revenue for State Fairgrounds improvements, $386,000 in funding for the OCCVB and $97,000 to help sponsor special events.

Some of the others mug mentioned (shopping and restaurants, etc) would be covered in the economic impact multiplier which brings the point where the cost and the revenue eventually meet down but still a long time.

[gmwise]

That's so, but Kern is a high-profile special case. Ignore the roaches and they merely multiply. The squeaky clean guardian of our morality and witch-burner from Warr Acres (who, in the national press, is unfortunately NOT identified as being from Warr Acres but instead is identified with Oklahoma City) has brought derisive national and in one instance international attention to our city on at least two occasions that I'm aware of.

She equates my representative in the state Legislature, Al McAffrey, as being more dangerous to American society than Muslim terrorists. I've never met him, but from what I've observed from a distance he is a class act. I cannot begin to describe the depth and strength of my contempt for Rep. Sally Kern, even though I've not met her, either.

It is simply not sufficient to ignore her. It is incumbent upon us to publicly and aggressively repudiate her and what she stands for at every turn. At least, that's my opinion.

Exactly!

[betts]

Exactly!

I'm with you on this issue. However, not being a resident of Warr Acres, I don't know what the public sentiment in her district is. I wonder what the chances of unseating her might be.

[gmwise]

Alot easier if churches are required to be audited.
I suspect her husband's congregation is contributing to the church, and somehow is engaged in money laundering, maybe even paying for the signs.The bodies and so forth.
I say this because we had a political candidate come to our church several years ago and told us how to do it, he was a right winger..justice was served, he lost.

[jbrown84]

We would all love for MAPS 3 project number 9 to be the construction of a new home for Kern back in Idaho, but that's not gonna happen.

[gmwise]

We would all love for MAPS 3 project number 9 to be the construction of a new home for Kern back in Idaho, but that's not gonna happen.

I was thinking a family vault.

[Richard]

Did we forget that last summer several triathletes got sick from swimming in the nasty OKLAHOMA RIVER!! Now tell me that you would go do the water rapids, this will be a project that will not be built !

[JLCinOKC]

The whitewater project won't be connected to the river. It will not use river water.

[Midtowner]

Did we forget that last summer several triathletes got sick from swimming in the nasty OKLAHOMA RIVER!! Now tell me that you would go do the water rapids, this will be a project that will not be built !

That issue has been fixed. The problem was caused by effluent runoff from the stockyards and it will no longer be an issue.

That said, the water running in any river adjacent to any city in the world is bound to be funktastic.

[rcjunkie]

Who is on Sally Kern's side? Not me. And if I had to guess, I would be willing to bet Mrs. Kern is as anti-MAPS as she can get.

FWIW, the anti-MAPS crowd seems to be a bastion of rednecks.

When someone calls to schedule a convention at our new downtown convention center, I doubt that they their plans will be cancelled if Sally Kern is in town--GOOD GREIF