Oklahoman offers ‘paid volunteer leave’ for employees campaigning for MAPS 3

[iron76hd]

Hey, I'm for MAPS! But I fail to see why other people supporting MAPS can't admit that this crosses the line. It's an incestuous relationship involved with electoral politics, and whether that's for a candidate or for an initiative with lucrative contracts....it's wrong.

At least mike can admit it! like little sheep you all are....BAAAAAAA

It's bad folks no matter what side you are on. Follow the money! It's a shame. This City is in trouble as long as our current leaders foster this CLOSE city government/Private business relationship. The lines get blurred to easily and then citizens get left behind.

If we were voting for something that could MAKE this city money. Like a NASCAR track or the largest amusement park in the world. I'd understand a little more and I'm not a NASCAR fan. Voting for MONEY pits? I just don't understand this stuff. I guess people from all around this country are going to come to OKC and use our FREE park, trails, and aquatic centers....LOL..What a joke.

That's what's happening. Why do you think they've garnered every connected person they can think of and are running dramatic speeches and commercials.

Oh well. A few short days and we'll be done. Whether it's MAPS YES OR NO. The same disgusting relationship will be steering this city and not it's citizens. Only a select few and that's truly a shame.

[soonerguru]

At least mike can admit it! like little sheep you all are....BAAAAAAA

It's bad folks no matter what side you are on. Follow the money! It's a shame. This City is in trouble as long as our current leaders foster this CLOSE city government/Private business relationship. The lines get blurred to easily and then citizens get left behind.

That's what's happening. Why do you think they've garnered every connected person they can think of and are running dramatic speeches and commercials.

Oh well. A few short days and we'll be done. Whether it's MAPS YES OR NO. The same disgusting relationship will be steering this city and not it's citizens. Only a select few.

No, it won't be a select few. When MAPS passes it will be due to the will of the voters. And we will all benefit when our city's tax base expands, our property values rise, our city becomes more of a destination for visitors and new residents, and we have more economic opportunity.

Who really cares who is involved with the planning if it benefits our city?

Oklahoma City is on a roll, and there's no reason to stop now. Our best days are ahead, and we are going to pass MAPS and keep moving forward.

[tehvipir]

what is really sick is "PAID VOLUNTERR TIME OFF" that is sick that this world has come to PAYING people to volunterr because they dont care enough about thier issues to do it for free.

I think everyone can agree on that

I and i know hundreds of no people have VOLUNTEERED MANY hours I riks losing my part time job because i have spent all my free time trying to keep my DREAM job that i have had since i was 4. but thats ok since you get a park you can sit in in the tall grass because the parks department took a budget cut and already cant maintain it.

I am glad to see some people against the OKLAHOMAN on this. I would understand if they gave both equal sides of the story instead of runing a 4 page bash on the fd. thats sad.

but i guess no matter where you look you will never have media that is truely nuetral and that sucsk for both parties.

I have lost much sleep over our 40 personal budget cut because my neck is on the chopping block and my family has suffered as well. All we want is more needs instead of wants. put more fireman on the streets to help the manning. have you noticed for the past 2 months of so there has been 1-5 FIRE A DAY in OKC. some crews make multiple fires. while yes thats what we get paid for and i am glad god gave me the opportunity to be where i am in this city working for you guys but sometimes being able to go on vacation is nice too. shoot a day off without being told the day before you have to come in would be nice.

same with police. we want help. lets get our parks department up to par so the day that we come out of a 12% sales tax revenue decrease for 9 straight months we can build a park.

Just because some of the stuff doenst get built right now doesnt mean we are going to quit. I myself would love some of the stuff it offers but not at this time.

It sad to see the mayor lie to the citizens to turn them against the fd in which is only here for the citizens and are some of their only healthcare.

Well i really hope maps fails and the city ca sit down and see what happened and reorganize and attack this again a different way with different features. until then i am going to be stressing as the Jan 1 2010 budget cuts take affect, not to mention the 3-4% budget cuts in JULY 2010 as well.

has anyone heard of a "taxpayers Lawsuit" just wondering if there is one. I do know that in 1989 a 3/4 cent sales tax was passed to give OCFD 200 additional firefighters to what they had then. well we are at the number, what happens if they lay off 40 and we fall below that number. isnt that a violation of the city by collecting taxes when the funds are to go someplace but those positions are lost. just wondering. i nkow some are lawyers around here.

really please vote no.

[soonerguru]

have lost much sleep over our 40 personal budget cut because my neck is on the chopping block and my family has suffered as well. All we want is more needs instead of wants. put more fireman on the streets to help the manning. have you noticed for the past 2 months of so there has been 1-5 FIRE A DAY in OKC. some crews make multiple fires. while yes thats what we get paid for and i am glad god gave me the opportunity to be where i am in this city working for you guys but sometimes being able to go on vacation is nice too. shoot a day off without being told the day before you have to come in would be nice.

Your department has sustained a 2 percent cut, the same as all city government. TWO PERCENT. IN the WORST ECONOMIC CONDITIONS SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

No pay cut. No layoffs. Not even furloughs.

You don't live in reality if you think this is bad. For people in state government, the average budget cut is 12 percent. People are being furloughed. People are getting fired. People are working overtime without pay.

Get a grip. Even people in the private sector are suffering.

We know how much cops and fire get paid. They get paid well, as they should.

This recession will end, and if MAPS is passed, our city will continue to grow its revenue base, and pay raises and additional personnel will be possible.

[tehvipir]

NO PAY CUT NO LAYOFF NO FURLOUGHS. ar you kidding the mayor has threatned all that on us. Fire gets paid well as you make your rank the same as the military or any other job. I understand people in the private secotr is suffereing but how is hiring a bunch of mexicans who cant speak english going to help the economy? those truley are the only ones who want the kinds of jobs that maps will creat in any near futures. dont believe me. go talk to the paving crews. wait they are to poor for your likes. our city has grown

[tehvipir]

and we have not been alowed to increas personal to a safe number. WHY CANT YOU SEE THIS. probalby becuase your job does nothing more then answer phione, place on hold. take message. repeat. oh and grab the newspaper fo your boss to read. i now understand.

[soonerguru]

and we have not been alowed to increas personal to a safe number. WHY CANT YOU SEE THIS. probalby becuase your job does nothing more then answer phione, place on hold. take message. repeat. oh and grab the newspaper fo your boss to read. i now understand.

My job is really nothing like this.

[tehvipir]

EXACLTY> i dont know what goes on in your job and you dont ours. so when we say we need help from the people we serve we hope that they realize that we know our job better than the MAYOR or his helpers do.

[soonerguru]

NO PAY CUT NO LAYOFF NO FURLOUGHS. ar you kidding the mayor has threatned all that on us.

Wow. I'm sorry you're threatened. But for the rest of us, IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. Quit acting like you're so put upon compared to everyone else. You're not. And you don't seem to have any sympathy for anyone else.

Please remember that there are people who are going through this now and are suffering through the holiday.

There are currently no furloughs or pay cuts of OKC public safety employees. There are, however, many of those -- up to and including layoffs -- for many state employees and people in the private sector.

Also, you are making the FALSE assumption that OKC pro-MAPS voters would not support police and fire in your efforts to be better staffed. I admit you're making it harder to support you because you are trying to destroy an initiative that will help our city for your own personal needs. This is highly annoying. You can't see it because you're on the inside.

Why do you assume OKC citizens don't want to help you? Why do you insist on taking it out on MAPS? Can you not see how destructive -- and counterproductive -- this is?

MAPS failing will not lead to a raise for public safety.

I think you're seriously misguided and that your union leadership has made a major mistake in taking this approach.

[tehvipir]

ITs not about a raise. i dont care about my salary. i care about staffing. Maps will come back if it gets shut down. so if in march we made a propsition to RAISE taxes and give it to fire on top of this they citizens would go for it? NO they wont thats why a majority vote no. TAXES. I feel bad for the people that got laid off, my brother included many freidns in the oil field who have seen a decline. i understand Of course i dont want to be laid off. WHO WOULD.

like i said i want maps to fail not because my union told me to. (i not much a union person. bad respresentation when i was a child) i am doing this to hope the the MAYOR and CITY council sees what is needed why do we need to build grandstands at the boat house. let aubry. those are the things that makes you wonder.

[soonerguru]

ITs not about a raise. i dont care about my salary. i care about staffing. Maps will come back if it gets shut down. so if in march we made a propsition to RAISE taxes and give it to fire on top of this they citizens would go for it? NO they wont thats why a majority vote no. TAXES. I feel bad for the people that got laid off, my brother included many freidns in the oil field who have seen a decline. i understand Of course i dont want to be laid off. WHO WOULD.

like i said i want maps to fail not because my union told me to. (i not much a union person. bad respresentation when i was a child) i am doing this to hope the the MAYOR and CITY council sees what is needed why do we need to build grandstands at the boat house. let aubry. those are the things that makes you wonder.

This is not about building grandstands at the boathouse. If you think it is, I don't think we can have a reasonable conversation.

You want your staffing needs met now, and you will do anything to do it, including punishing the citizens by working to defeat MAPS.

1. Working to defeat MAPS does not solve your staffing problems. It doesn't address your staffing problems. It has no bearing on your staffing problems.
2. MAPS is not and has never been a funding source for city personnel. It is and always has been about developing infrastructure to improve the quality of life in our city.
3. Your efforts to defeat MAPS are creating enemies among constituencies that would normally support your efforts and needs.
4. If MAPS passes, and our city continues its momentum as a tourism destination as well as a destination for new companies and PEOPLE, the tax base will grow. This is the source of revenue that gives you a paycheck.

If you cannot sensibly address these questions, you're being dishonest with yourself and everyone on this board.

[tehvipir]

i can address all of them.
i think maps defeat will get the city to sit down and see what the city needs IE more fire personal and firestations that a study showed the city need for the size.

just becuase something has NEVER been used for a funding source doesnt mean it cant be. maybe we need to prioritize where our $777 millon is being spent. the boathouse grandstands was just an example to me of somethin that chesapeak should do. not the city. my opionion. i feel that the big companies are using the city to help them out more than anyone else. they arent as big as they are being dumb.

If people get mad at me and wont support me because of my PERSONL opions then shame on them. does that mean i shouldnt talk to my freinds who voted obama because i dont believe in his values. we arent against MAPS, we are against this maps right now. I am a transplant here but from what i saw with maps for kids.. awesome. lets give them more.

If our city is as recession proof as i have heard then we will grow. our sales tax revenue has been down 12% for past 9 months straight and they were hoping but doubtful that black friday would help. i didnt hear anything post then. tax base will grow when the programs that generate taxes come in. ie convention center, but when we have to compete with the lawns being mowed or grass being cut of a 70 acre park ontop of out numerous other parks then it wont grow by that much.

From day 1 on this job the fire chief said that we are the ONLY city department that is solely based on the citizens and we WORK for the citizens and he expects us to treat our employeers (YOU) as such.

we cant talk all day about this but my opions about how i see maps failing would help the CITY wont change. just like my political views on healthcare and abortion. You have your set ways and i do mine.

too me i think maps is sort of like a CITI bank bailout for our companies here. they big guys are going to get all the $$$ from this. thats my opion. the mayor while working for his advertising firm will be getting paid from people who use the firm he works for to advertise here. i see a problem with that.

[soonerguru]

1. You got another thing coming if you think your scorched earth tactics will get everyone to "sit down" and listen to your demands. This is not how to handle a negotiation. This is a last-ditch, bridge-burning approach.

2. MAPS is a temporary, not permanent, funding source. Therefore, it would not be appropriate to use for a permanent need, i.e. additional firefighters. It is designed to build infrastructure. Nothing else.

3. What I'm suggesting here is that your active anti-MAPS crusade is alienating you from the voters most likely to support you in the future (and by the way, a lot them voted for Obama). If you don't understand how that is bad politics, I don't know what to say. This isn't comparable to you and a buddy disagreeing on a vote in a presidential race.

4. Forbes said OKC is recession proof, but I laughed out loud when I read the article (as I would have if it were written about any other city.). The point here is that our tax base and city have improved dramatically after the passage of each MAPS vote. MAPS III will be just as transformative, as it addresses some of the things that will differentiate us from other cities, not just have us fighting to keep up. Further, the point is that the revenue that funds your pay check comes from the tax base. An expanded tax base helps you (and clearly a contracting tax base makes your life stressful). We need to move forward and police and fire will benefit just as much as anyone else from our city's continued growth.

And lastly, your comment about the big companies here benefitting from MAPS is a paranoid fantasy. How does, say, Chesapeake benefit from more hiking trails? Better public transit? Well, they do benefit because it becomes easier for them to recruit and retain workers, but there's no big financial payoff. And more, what would be bad about having our major employers make money? Isn't that what we want?

[tehvipir]

lets see chesapeak boat house. races, stands, they own land. hmmmm...

No its not a permantent funding source but why not use maps to help CITY departments avioding layoffs and budget cuts UNTIL the nation get out of the recession. i just dont see why you cant see what i am saying and i know i cant see what you are saying. but i really think that is the city is soooo broke they have to lay off public safety maybe we should find something to help that problem RIGHT NOW. not a park.

[betts]

I think Chesapeake's interest in the boat house is more philanthropic than financial. I think McClendon owns land, but it, like the Humphreys, is south of the river, which makes it a completely separate area to be developed, and which will not be affected to any significant degree at all by MAPS.

I would have taken the city's use tax offer, and told them that, while it's a help, it's not enough and negotiations will be ongoing. That would be a win-win situation for your unions, whereas I see opposition to MAPS as a lose-lose one.

[Doug Loudenback]

I've updated my Doug Dawgz Blog: Quo Vadis, Oklahoman? article to include the above developments. Screen shots of the update portion of the article appear below and they trace how this stuff came about ... all excepet one item .. WHERE did the original source, Poynter, get its stuff from ... from someone in the Oklahoman organization, presumably ...


---

---

---

---

[Larry OKC]

"This recession will end, and if MAPS is passed, our city will continue to grow its revenue base, and pay raises and additional personnel will be possible."

Yes, that all sounds reasonable and we have heard it before. Now where was that? Ah yes, it was with MAPS, MAPS for Kids and even the Ford (that quality of life factors would lead to a larger tax base, and more revenue for the City, staffing issues would be addressed). "A rising tide lifts all boats". The tax base did indeed increase, revenue increased (from the yearly average of $66M with MAPS to a projected $100M/year with the Ford & MAPS 3). So where did all of the money go? Where is the increased staffing?

I haven't looked at every claim the F&P have made in these threads (and don't have a dog in the fight) but the ones I did look up, support what they have been saying. According to the City's own budget reports they are operating at the same level as several years ago. The City has admitted that they are understaffed by 200 officers (mol). What have they offered with MAPS 3? Only under pressure did the City come forward and offer anything (and only through the accompanying use tax). That use tax "commitment" was only for the 1st couple of years of the 7.75 year tax. Would have only prevented the layoff of personnel. And the 20-27 that would be "added" would have still left them 170 (mol) short of current needs. And since it is a temporary tax, once the tax ends, the funding source and most likely the positions will go away as well. Once you tie in a temporary tax into this, then it becomes a safety issue and you can't ever let that funding source go.

[iron76hd]

1. Working to defeat MAPS does not solve your staffing problems. It doesn't address your staffing problems. It has no bearing on your staffing problems.
2. MAPS is not and has never been a funding source for city personnel. It is and always has been about developing infrastructure to improve the quality of life in our city.

Interesting! Flip...Flop....Isn't that what your commercial says. "MAPS WILL put more police and fire on the streets? Please explain? Which is it? It can't be both, surely you know your contradicting what's being said now.

3. Your efforts to defeat MAPS are creating enemies among constituencies that would normally support your efforts and needs.

What enemies? Is everyone who has a reasonable perspective or different opinion that you an ENEMY? A little immature are we? Don't worry you'll grow out of that.

4. If MAPS passes, and our city continues its momentum as a tourism destination as well as a destination for new companies and PEOPLE, the tax base will grow. This is the source of revenue that gives you a paycheck.

Refer to #2. Didn't you just say MAPS isn't a funding source? Then in #4 you say that it gives us our paycheck. You can't be serious. They will give anyone a vote. Listen you think people are going to be coming from all over for a CENTRAL PARK? SENIOR Aquatics CENTER? BIKE TRAILS and SIDEWALKS? That's going to be a new package everyone. OKC travel package. You can battle the bums in central park or ride your bike on some bike trails or if you're old you can swim. Back up your family and get your checkbook. Come one! Come All! Oh yes...they'll be lining up!

[soonerguru]

Refer to #2. Didn't you just say MAPS isn't a funding source? Then in #4 you say that it gives us our paycheck

Learn to read. MAPS is a temporary, not permanent, funding source. Police and fire need a permanent funding source.

I spelled it out very clearly for those who know how to read or aren't actively trying to twist information to suit their argument. That is what you do. That is what people who don't have a good argument do. You are one of those people.

[Wambo36]

Learn to read. MAPS is a temporary, not permanent, funding source. Police and fire need a permanent funding source.

I spelled it out very clearly for those who know how to read or aren't actively trying to twist information to suit their argument. That is what you do. That is what people who don't have a good argument do. You are one of those people.

Soonerguru please address LarryOKC's post above. You seem to want to address everything that Iron says, but shy away from the very good argument Larry makes. The same argument has been made by others and myself, but we never seem to get any answer to it. If the previous MAPS have been so successful, and I agree they have, where is the additional manpower the additional funding was supposed to bring? Why have we actually seen manpower decreases while the funding has gone up? Why should we believe the city leaders this time when history shows us they aren't telling the truth?

[soonerguru]

Soonerguru please address LarryOKC's post above. You seem to want to address everything that Iron says, but shy away from the very good argument Larry makes. The same argument has been made by others and myself, but we never seem to get any answer to it. If the previous MAPS have been so successful, and I agree they have, where is the additional manpower the additional funding was supposed to bring? Why have we actually seen manpower decreases while the funding has gone up? Why should we believe the city leaders this time when history shows us they aren't telling the truth?

Wambo, I do not work for the city or the city manager. I am a citizen here. I want our city to continue moving forward.

I have no understanding of the inner-working of city government. But I do need to decide whether staying in this city will be the best decision for my family. That's why I'm in support of MAPS.

When MAPS is passed, I would be interested in doing what I can to help fire and police, but it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

[jbrown84]

Didn't you just say MAPS isn't a funding source?

It's not. You will benefit from the increased tax base, not the MAPS fund itself. It's not so hard.

The point is, the failure of this proposition in no way gets you your increased manpower. You are voting against it to spite the city, and you are burning bridges with many who would have otherwise supported your cause.

Soonerguru please address LarryOKC's post above. You seem to want to address everything that Iron says, but shy away from the very good argument Larry makes. The same argument has been made by others and myself, but we never seem to get any answer to it.

We can address that issue, but it's irrelevant to MAPS 3. Had your unions not held the city and citizens hostage on MAPS 3, I and many other pro-MAPS types would have been lined up to support you on this issue. Now, we may be less inclined to do so because of the unions' tactics.

[kevinpate]

Whatever is done regarding fire and police, it would be a significant mistake to do it via a temporary funding source only.

The public safety crowd, though not within some beef, picked a baseball diamond to play soccer on, and then as fans showed up, basically starting telling them they are all nuts to be as happy as they are with the services they presently receive.

Not much wonder they don't seem to be making the progress they hoped to be making.

Hopefully, after the 8th, everyone can take a breath and figure out what can, and should, be done regarding PS desires. And do so in a context that makes way more sense than the past few weeks have.

[rcjunkie]

"This recession will end, and if MAPS is passed, our city will continue to grow its revenue base, and pay raises and additional personnel will be possible."

Yes, that all sounds reasonable and we have heard it before. Now where was that? Ah yes, it was with MAPS, MAPS for Kids and even the Ford (that quality of life factors would lead to a larger tax base, and more revenue for the City, staffing issues would be addressed). "A rising tide lifts all boats". The tax base did indeed increase, revenue increased (from the yearly average of $66M with MAPS to a projected $100M/year with the Ford & MAPS 3). So where did all of the money go? Where is the increased staffing?

I haven't looked at every claim the F&P have made in these threads (and don't have a dog in the fight) but the ones I did look up, support what they have been saying. According to the City's own budget reports they are operating at the same level as several years ago. The City has admitted that they are understaffed by 200 officers (mol). What have they offered with MAPS 3? Only under pressure did the City come forward and offer anything (and only through the accompanying use tax). That use tax "commitment" was only for the 1st couple of years of the 7.75 year tax. Would have only prevented the layoff of personnel. And the 20-27 that would be "added" would have still left them 170 (mol) short of current needs. And since it is a temporary tax, once the tax ends, the funding source and most likely the positions will go away as well. Once you tie in a temporary tax into this, then it becomes a safety issue and you can't ever let that funding source go.

As has been stated several times, the same study that says the police are understaffed by 200 officers also states that if they switch from their current 10 hour day, 4 days a week schedule to the more common 8 hour day, 5 days a week schedule, they would be OVERSTAFFED by 78 officers,

[andy157]

As has been stated several times, the same study that says the police are understaffed by 200 officers also states that if they switch from their current 10 hour day, 4 days a week schedule to the more common 8 hour day, 5 days a week schedule, they would be OVERSTAFFED by 78 officers,

Are you sure about your facts? Are you sure they work 10 hours a day, 4 days a week? You may be 100% correct. But I think your only 1/2 correct. But hey your batting .500