OKC Police & Fire needs

[betts]

Sorry, Larry. Again, you're guessing. There's insufficient data to make an assumption, much less confirm a hypothesis. We've discussed ad nauseum that the legally binding language with some teeth in it is missing from the ballot. Doug gave a very clear explanation of why he thinks that is the case. Bob thinks we're going to go through 93 months of hell, but he is guessing as well. There are no absolutes for any of us.

What will happen if MAPS doesn't pass? Absolutely nothing. No public works. No new jobs. We will have to rely on the private sector, which people like BOB hate and fear the most, to do everything for us. Given the fact that we're in a recession, they could conceivably do nothing. Regardless, FAR less will happen in OKC than if MAPS passes, even if it is imperfect.

So, I'm going to vote for hope, for the possibility of change and improvement, for moving forward. I'm going to trust that our public officials do precisely what we have asked them to do. And, I'm going to see if I can figure out a way to get on that oversight committee, if we have the opportunity to have one. I feel very, very comfortable voting yes, and if MAPS passes, I fully expect to be as happy with what we accomplish as I have been with the prior MAPS. That's all.

Pertinent to this discussion is this post from Midtowner on a different thread:

"Urbanity has cited both state statue and city charter issues which have me convinced that the single-subject rule actually does apply to OKC."

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

Sorry, Larry. Again, you're guessing. There's insufficient data to make an assumption, much less confirm a hypothesis. We've discussed ad nauseum that the legally binding language with some teeth in it is missing from the ballot. Doug gave a very clear explanation of why he thinks that is the case. Bob thinks we're going to go through 93 months of hell, but he is guessing as well. There are no absolutes for any of us.

What will happen if MAPS doesn't pass? Absolutely nothing. No public works. No new jobs. We will have to rely on the private sector, which people like BOB hate and fear the most, to do everything for us. Given the fact that we're in a recession, they could conceivably do nothing. Regardless, FAR less will happen in OKC than if MAPS passes, even if it is imperfect.

So, I'm going to vote for hope, for the possibility of change and improvement, for moving forward. I'm going to trust that our public officials do precisely what we have asked them to do. And, I'm going to see if I can figure out a way to get on that oversight committee, if we have the opportunity to have one. I feel very, very comfortable voting yes, and if MAPS passes, I fully expect to be as happy with what we accomplish as I have been with the prior MAPS. That's all.

Pertinent to this discussion is this post from Midtowner on a different thread:

"Urbanity has cited both state statue and city charter issues which have me convinced that the single-subject rule actually does apply to OKC."

If you feel like you know the facts, then vote your conscience. I am sure that you and your family will all be yes votes. My family and I are definitely no votes, so we are just a wash. See you at the polls.

[purplemonkeythief]

If you feel like you know the facts, then vote your conscience. I am sure that you and your family will all be yes votes. My family and I are definitely no votes, so we are just a wash. See you at the polls.

Don't forget the beauty of a sales tax issue though Bob.

Regardless of how the vote goes, you can continue to oppose simply by not making purchases in OKC. I know that's what I will be doing, especially after my grandmother recovers next month and we move.

[iron76hd]

What a LIE!!!

MAPS COMMERCIAL

"MAPS3 will add to Police and Fire"....

What a flat out lie! I thought the issues were unrelated?

VOTE NO!

[betts]

That is the beauty of the sales tax, and that's why the "no" side has less to lose than the "yes" side. You don't even have to pay the tax if you don't want to.

And then, people like me can continue doing what I've been doing since MAPS started. I only shop inside the city, so that I can help pay for all the amenities and schools MAPS has built. I only catalog shop if I absolutely cannot find what I want. And everytime I make a bigger purchase, in my head I calculate how much money I'm giving to MAPS. It's such a little thing I can do to help.

Purplemonkeythief, what happened to your grandmother is clearly a terrible thing. No one wants to make light of it. I can understand your anger, and in your position I would probably move as well. But, there is no one who can wave a magic wand and make all our neighborhoods safe. There is no amount of money that can prevent what happened to your grandmother and other people with similar experiences from happening. There are bad people in this world and they commit violent acts, and perhaps if we could create a perfect socity, we could lessen the risk, but some of these people have a genetic wrongness about them, and they would commit crimes no matter where they lived, or how they'd been raised. We have to do everything we can to fix our society, but the presence or absence of a sidewalk, a park, a swimming pool, or a grocery store won't do that. We try to make this a better place in which to live, but there are so many facets that it's hard to know what would fix the problems that affected your grandmother.

[Midtowner]

What a LIE!!!

MAPS COMMERCIAL

"MAPS3 will add to Police and Fire"....

What a flat out lie! I thought the issues were unrelated?

VOTE NO!

Economic development will increase sales tax collections. .75% of the sales tax collection is supposed to go to police. Fire gets a cut somewhere as well I'm sure.

So no, not a flat out lie.

I do realize that the City Manager has been screwing y'all around on actually letting you do what you want with that money or giving it to you at all. That's another issue for another day.

The fact of the matter is that MAPS will tremendously impact the city's bottom line and both police and fire stand to benefit and I don't see how you could possibly argue otherwise.

[iron76hd]

We have to do everything we can to fix our society, but the presence or absence of a sidewalk, a park, a swimming pool, or a grocery store won't do that. We try to make this a better place in which to live, but there are so many facets that it's hard to know what would fix the problems that affected your grandmother.

What? A better place isn't water rapids betts. A better place to live and quality of life is measured by Safety.

It's funny betts, you push these trails so hard. What do you think would build first if they started tomorrow.

Chamber's convention center is my guess.

Then the DEVON park.

Your trails betty are way down the list. Good luck.

[iron76hd]

I do realize that the City Manager has been screwing y'all around on actually letting you do what you want with that money or giving it to you at all.

You're getting screwed! It's safety of you and your family that are getting screwed. You act like the Police is my personal business. If it wasn't for a conscience that we all have and a sense of responsibility to this city we serve. You'd be getting screwed a lot more. We'd have the who cares attitude. Lucky you.

So no, not a flat out lie.

I though the issues were unrelated? Is that right? Where is the money then? We haven't added anyone in years!!!

What happened to the money?

[Urban Pioneer]

Show some respect to the lady or stick your head in the sand. You give your cause and people a black eye.

[purplemonkeythief]

But, there is no one who can wave a magic wand and make all our neighborhoods safe.

Excuse me, but all of you Yes people keep claiming that Exactly what MAPS3 is doing for all the so-called blighted area Downtown!

There is no amount of money that can prevent what happened to your grandmother and other people with similar experiences from happening.

There most certainly is an amount of money, it's called a city budget. It is the thing that this City can't seem to keep under control. Why else are they closing public services? They say it's lack of funding, but on the other hand they say that MAPS created a windfall of Tax revenue. Which is it? It can't be both. Either they're lying about the money earned, or they mismanaged the money.

There are bad people in this world and they commit violent acts, and perhaps if we could create a perfect socity, we could lessen the risk, but some of these people have a genetic wrongness about them, and they would commit crimes no matter where they lived, or how they'd been raised. We have to do everything we can to fix our society, but the presence or absence of a sidewalk, a park, a swimming pool, or a grocery store won't do that. We try to make this a better place in which to live, but there are so many facets that it's hard to know what would fix the problems that affected your grandmother.

It isn't about the presence of a park or pool or sidewalk or even a white water rapids ride. It is about the fact that the city cannot maintain what it already has and seemingly refuses to unless it exists Downtown.

In 2009 the Douglass, Macklanburg and Schilling Public Aquatic Centers were closed due to the lack of $30,000 in funding. Also in 2009, the city council puts up for a vote the MAPS3 initiative, which includes the building of new Aquatic Centers.

In what possible way does this make any sense? How is this the action of a fiscally responsible city? Were they closed simply because they weren't downtown? It sure looks that way.

This entire city is falling apart. Crime is waaaay up all over the areas surrounding downtown and the City is doing nothing about it.

Well, I take that back, they're building a park, and some sidewalks, and some pools, and a white water ride.

[betts]

Iron are you one of the misinformation spreaders telling people that "this park is for Devon, it's going to be their front yard." Another favorite: There's going to be a double tax. They can start the tax January 1st." And there's "the Humphreys own the land" the convention center will be built on "fib'.

Have you ever even driven downtown? Have you ever even driven the area in which the park would be built? Have you educated yourself just a little?

1. THE PARK IS NOT FOR DEVON. THEY DIDN'T ASK FOR IT, AND IT'S NOT EVEN NEAR THEIR NEW BUILDING. IT CAN'T BE THEIR FRONT YARD BECAUSE THE MYRIAD GARDENS IS ALREADY THERE. Sorry to capitalize, but how many times do you have to be told that? TIF money FROM Devon is going to improve the Myriad Gardens, not money from you. I'm sure you're one of the people going door to door lying to the voters about this one.

2. If you READ the ballot, it says the city has to have the election by January 1st. They can't start collecting it until the current MAPS expires.

3. The Humphreys own the downtown airpark. It is south of the Oklahoma River. There is absolutely not way a convention center will be built there. I will bet my entire mortgage on that, if you're interested in a friendly wager. The decision as to where the convention center will be built has not even been made yet. So, any of those rich people you hate so much (and whom you're depending upon to do everything for Oklahoma City if we don't have a public works tax), haven't bought any land knowing the convention center will be built there.

[BDP]

And how much of that is in MAPS 3, or is it MAPS 4, 5 & 6?

Well, the downtown streetcar is in MAPS 3, which will help make the other proposed lines much more useful and actually make them make sense. this is a great way to increase the worthiness and return on investment of ALL these projects to create a future with a comprehensive system that works together.

So, they are all related and that's the beauty of MAPS. Each project enhances other projects whether they are funded directly by MAPS or not. It's way better than the scattered disconnected strategy the opposition is suggesting here, where projects are evaluated not on their effectiveness or return on investment for the city as a whole, but by how much should be spent in their own respective districts or on their own special interest.

[td25er]

picking the central part of okc where the chamber of comerece pres happens to own most teh land is whats wrong. we have parks, lets make them better. i have seen swiming pools get shut down, why. can we go swimming in the new park doubt it.

is maps fails then the city will hopefully sit down and see the needs of the people not the wants.

the next tax raise here within the next year will be fore the jail and it will include ok county. why cant money from maps go tothe jail where it is needed. you cant look past your own nose. you have the money to use these events, not everyone can. so insterad of making a big park make improve out small ones. comeone people you are being selfish. you are only thinking abut your selves. but oh well. bob the builder said it right in another post. most of you people sit behind and desk andhave no CLUE about the real OKC> you just are lemmings following what teh first one does which happens to be the mayor. i am done. you people are horrible and only think of yourselves and how much fun you can have but you bitch about teh roads and how rough they are or when you get into an accident how long it took pd o get onscene. you cant have both. so stop with the wants and focuse on the needs.

I get a headache trying to read your posts.

[Larry OKC]

Sorry, Larry. Again, you're guessing. There's insufficient data to make an assumption, much less confirm a hypothesis.

OK, tell me what would be "sufficient data" for you? I have a feeling I could go to the trouble of citing every instance going back to statehood, and that still wouldn't be enough for you. Or you would dismiss it as "apples and oranges" or say "words don't matter." Ironic considering you have posted in excess of 2,300 times in these threads alone! And on that subject, if words don't matter, you are making the argument AGAINST the Council's "Intent Resolution". Gotta love it.

We've discussed ad nauseum that the legally binding language with some teeth in it is missing from the ballot.

Yes we have and you STILL don't get it.

Pertinent to this discussion is this post from Midtowner on a different thread:

"Urbanity has cited both state statue and city charter issues which have me convinced that the single-subject rule actually does apply to OKC."

If the single-subject rule (anti-log rolling) does apply to Cities (I always thought it did and it is what the City keeps using as justification for this), then it is illegal on 2 fronts. You forget that it was also pointed out that by using the generic "capital improvement" language, they have run smack dab into another clearly unconstitutional provision that DOES clearly apply to cities....the requirement that they be specific.

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

OK, tell me what would be "sufficient data" for you? I have a feeling I could go to the trouble of citing every instance going back to statehood, and that still wouldn't be enough for you. Or you would dismiss it as "apples and oranges" or say "words don't matter." Ironic considering you have posted in excess of 2,300 times in these threads alone! And on that subject, if words don't matter, you are making the argument AGAINST the Council's "Intent Resolution". Gotta love it.



Yes we have and you STILL don't get it.



If the single-subject rule (anti-log rolling) does apply to Cities (I always thought it did and it is what the City keeps using as justification for this), then it is illegal on 2 fronts. You forget that it was also pointed out that by using the generic "capital improvement" language, they have run smack dab into another clearly unconstitutional provision that DOES clearly apply to cities....the requirement that they be specific.

Larry,

The yes camp is never going to get it. You have went through the trouble to do your research and post the facts. These people dont care about the facts. All that they care about is getting what they want, regardless if its the right way or not. They had the opportunity to do this the right way and chose to do what they damn well pleased. What happened to Govt. for the people by the people.

The mayor has been spouting off outright lies to attempt to justify this and in the meantime hiding behind smoke and mirrors.
HE WONT EVEN HAVE A DEBATE IN AN OPEN FORUM. How cowardly is that?
Sure doesnt sound like a very strong position if you cant debate about it.

Recently, he has spoke about this issue at a location on the NE and SW sides of OKC. He makes his presentation and asked for any questions. When he is asked a question, he dances all around the issue and never answers the question. Then, when more questions are asked, he abruptly has to leave the premises. lol What a piece of work.

Exactly like going into executive session at the city council meetings. When
the going gets tough, he goes to hide behind closed doors.

Man up Mayor and answer some questions from the people who put you in office. If I were as yes supporter, I would be ticked off. He is using all of us to be his puppets for big business. We as citizens of this fine city deserve a whole hell of a lot better than that. I hope that all citizens of OKC would agree.

[OSUFan]

Not to sound cold but why should the Mayor debate yahoos like Porter Davis and Steve Hunt? We elected him to be our Mayor. If these guys want to debate the Mayor get elected to a public office. He doesn't have to debate every tom, dick or harry off the street.

[EBAH]

This whole thing is getting ridiculous on here. Did any of these vehement anti maps campaigners join this board before Oct 2009? This board has always been pretty friendly, and centered around an optimistic enthusiasm for city planning, progress, and development. The users of OKCTalk have always managed to get through lengthy conversations on these issues, with a healthy amount of respect and decency. I must admit that I've been reading it less lately because some of these threads have started to read like the comment space on a NewsOK article.

I am an inner city resident, and value our police force and fire department greatly. Like any citizen on here, despite what a few posters on this board would have you believe, I am very concerned by budget shortfalls and shortages of manpower. However, I have been very saddened to see the public safety workers position themselves in such an adversarial role. I find it sort of offensive that they have chosen to make budget constraints, something every public sector worker has to accept as a reality when they sign up for a job, a reason that the city shouldn't spend money to bolster and invigorate our private sector. Not to mention that this attitude is figuratively spitting in the face of the numerous workers that are unemployed in this city that could be eligible for the numerous construction, planning, marketing, etc jobs that would be available as soon as the first shovel hits the dirt.

Anyone on this forum that claims the first MAPS and the follow up initiatives, have not had a direct and noticeable effect in our community is just fooling themselves. Do you not remember the dark days? Also, which of these proposed projects do you think are a waste of money? A convention center that would create a large number of jobs, bring in additional thousands of convention visitors every year (many of which would go home as walking advertisements for our community, not to mention the convention attending decision makers that could bring business to our state), and serve as a location for large scale events that our city was previously unable to host. Or maybe the river development that would give us a high profile annual showcase in the form of rowing or kayaking championships and Olympic trials. Or building the foundations of a real and usable public transit system that would help us better serve both lower income workers as well as the aforementioned visitors (and don't give me that nobody rides it crap, a friend of mine without a car has to use the current public transit system to get to work and it takes him an hour and a half to go what it would take me 8-10 minutes by car). Or maybe the public park and riding trails, arguably the most "frivolous" of all the proposals. Even the park will create a lot of construction jobs, serve as a central gathering spot for the city, bring some beauty to an otherwise blighted and decaying half of downtown. The riding trails will allow many people to actually use a bicycle to commute and get around town without the fear of serious injury from motorists (which as a cyclist I can attest is a very real concern for the metro).

These are all things that the community in the aggregate will benefit from. They are very large scale and are meant to serve the public at large. Sure, maybe one part or all parts wont be used by YOU specifically, but they will improve the image and quality of life of your community and affect in a very real way the amount of external and internal investment. Having them publicly funded also ensures that their operation remains in the control of elected city officials with direct oversight by the electorate.

My wife works for the state (and is currently experiencing furlough days), and as a result I am very sympathetic to the concerns of the police and fire depts. However, the whole idea behind a project like maps is to eventually bolster city tax revenues by providing a funding stream in the form of convention center rents and fees, and increased commercial development in adjacent areas to service convention, sports, and park attendees (as well as an inevitable amount of office development). It is the job of our civil service to make the best of what they have, and to make their case to the public when they need more. I can say for me personally, that coming out stark raving mad about a proposal meant to move our city forward, really leaves a bad taste in my mouth for the Police and Fire unions. Please understand that if this proposal fails, the memory of this city, will be of the police and fire killing it. If you know of the way that the city and I. M. Pei are remembered for the failed urban renewal efforts, you could expect something similar (albeit not as severe). You can picture the conversation now, people walking through the cox center saying, "man, this place is getting run down" and the other replying, "yeah, we were supposed to have built a new convention center, but the Police and Fire unions....." It will be this same electorate that these public safety workers will rely on for funding through future ballot initiatives, that will face their own critics.

The money will come back, and the police and fire WILL get their hours and vacation pay back, probably around the time the rest of us (even private sector folks) get out hours and vacation pay back. But in the mean time, is it so bad for the community to spend some money on some things we can feel we accomplished together? Sort of a glimmer of hope in an otherwise dreary year.

Anyway, thats my rant, I apologize for the length. Hopefully, we can get this thing passed, and move on to much more stimulating conversations such as, "what is with the construction crane at blank street and such and such ave.?" or "has there been any progress on the development near this and that?".

[Wambo36]

Not to sound cold but why should the Mayor debate yahoos like Porter Davis and Steve Hunt? We elected him to be our Mayor. If these guys want to debate the Mayor get elected to a public office. He doesn't have to debate every tom, dick or harry off the street.

Nobody is asking him to debate every tom,dick or harry off the street. As a maps supporter I would think you would be furious that he's hiding from substantive debate. I mean he does have an overwhelming argument doesn't he? Surely you have no doubt that he'd mop the floor with those on the opposition who would dare show up to such a butt kicking.
Or, maybe he's just content to continue rolling out half-truths and lies on radio and TV ads. That way he does't have to deal with those pesky questions about his continually shifting stories. He doesn't have to support his new found claims about adding police and fire with this maps when the last several maps have seen both departments lose personnel.
Yeah, I'm betting on the second choice.

[purplemonkeythief]

Anyone on this forum that claims the first MAPS and the follow up initiatives, have not had a direct and noticeable effect in our community is just fooling themselves.

Of course it had a noticeable effect in our community. Crime is up all over the city, except Downtown. The OKC crime average is ABOVE the national average across all crime categories(Oklahoma City Crime Statistics (OK) - CityRating.com)

Do you not remember the dark days?

For many of us who aren't fortunate enough to live downtown, or midtown, these are the dark days.

Also, which of these proposed projects do you think are a waste of money? A convention center that would create a large number of jobs, bring in additional thousands of convention visitors every year (many of which would go home as walking advertisements for our community, not to mention the convention attending decision makers that could bring business to our state), and serve as a location for large scale events that our city was previously unable to host. Or maybe the river development that would give us a high profile annual showcase in the form of rowing or kayaking championships and Olympic trials. Or building the foundations of a real and usable public transit system that would help us better serve both lower income workers as well as the aforementioned visitors (and don't give me that nobody rides it crap, a friend of mine without a car has to use the current public transit system to get to work and it takes him an hour and a half to go what it would take me 8-10 minutes by car). Or maybe the public park and riding trails, arguably the most "frivolous" of all the proposals. Even the park will create a lot of construction jobs, serve as a central gathering spot for the city, bring some beauty to an otherwise blighted and decaying half of downtown. The riding trails will allow many people to actually use a bicycle to commute and get around town without the fear of serious injury from motorists (which as a cyclist I can attest is a very real concern for the metro).

There's zero guarantee that any of the proposed project will even be built. The wording of the proposal and the ballot leave a door open for the City to spend the money on anything they want, as long as they label it as a "Capital Improvement".

Having said that, if they do build what's proposed, I think the White water ride and the aquatic centers are a complete waste of money. Primarily because the city has been closing Aquatic centers around the city for the last few years due to lack of funding. Why would they propose to build brand new ones when they can't even fund the ones that are already built and were in-use? Furthermore, why was there a lack of funding for public Aquatic centers if the 2 previous MAPS proposals were so successful in generating revenue?

I also personally feel that the Streetcar system is a waste of money as it is proposed. I feel that way because I already ride the bus and see that nobody is using the current Transit System, especially Downtown. If they were being honest about getting Mass Transit going in OKC, why wouldn't they put the new transit system where it's going to actually be used?

Yes, I know, I've seen the posts from literally a handful of people who can't wait to ride the trolley from thier nice DT condo to Starbucks and to the Park. How wonderful for them.. Maybe those of us who will ride the transit System from our homes to work would actually get more use out of such a product.

[OSUFan]

I don't live downtown and I don't feel like these are dark times.

[purplemonkeythief]

I don't live downtown and I don't feel like these are dark times.

Awesome for you. It's a good thing I didn't say "everyone" then, isn't it?

[td25er]

Of course it had a noticeable effect in our community. Crime is up all over the city, except Downtown. The OKC crime average is ABOVE the national average across all crime categories(Oklahoma City Crime Statistics (OK) - CityRating.com)




For many of us who aren't fortunate enough to live downtown, or midtown, these are the dark days.




There's zero guarantee that any of the proposed project will even be built. The wording of the proposal and the ballot leave a door open for the City to spend the money on anything they want, as long as they label it as a "Capital Improvement".

Having said that, if they do build what's proposed, I think the White water ride and the aquatic centers are a complete waste of money. Primarily because the city has been closing Aquatic centers around the city for the last few years due to lack of funding. Why would they propose to build brand new ones when they can't even fund the ones that are already built and were in-use? Furthermore, why was there a lack of funding for public Aquatic centers if the 2 previous MAPS proposals were so successful in generating revenue?

I also personally feel that the Streetcar system is a waste of money as it is proposed. I feel that way because I already ride the bus and see that nobody is using the current Transit System, especially Downtown. If they were being honest about getting Mass Transit going in OKC, why wouldn't they put the new transit system where it's going to actually be used?

Yes, I know, I've seen the posts from literally a handful of people who can't wait to ride the trolley from thier nice DT condo to Starbucks and to the Park. How wonderful for them.. Maybe those of us who will ride the transit System from our homes to work would actually get more use out of such a product.

I bet you're a joy to be around. Some people are half-full, others are COMPLETELY EMPTY.

[Platemaker]

I bet you're a joy to be around. Some people are half-full, others are COMPLETELY EMPTY.

td25er - you are my new favorite OKCTalk member.

[proud2Bsooner]

I was just checking the join dates for a few (most) of the M3 opponents. Seems they all correspond with the beginnings of M3 threads. Maybe these people lurked, and were charged enough to begin posting with the M3 subject. Maybe their buddies at the firehouse or police stations got them tuned here. Whatever the case, they came out of their holes and likely will crawl back in after the vote.

I'm sure Pete enjoys the traffic. But on the other hand, where are these people on all the other big issues and subjects that have to do with our City????

I bet they don't care because they don't feel like the other issues have anything to do with them or their unions.

[purplemonkeythief]

I bet you're a joy to be around. Some people are half-full, others are COMPLETELY EMPTY.

So you're saying the city closed already built and functional Aquatic centers because I didn't have a positive attitude?

Is there a reason why one of you Yes people can't answer my simple questions about this? Every time I ask about the Aquatic centers, or the lack of funding which the previous MAPS initiative were supposed to have created, you pish-posh it and avoid the question.

OKC is turning into a cesspool, It's been steadily getting worse over the past 20 years and all you people care about is how pretty Downtown looks.