Yes Maps 3

[Popsy]

I have come to the opinion that it is futile to discuss issues with the "NO" folks as their issues are nothing but chaff thrown out to disguise their only issue, which is feathering their nest to the detriment of the good of the city. The understaffing they claim exists may or may not be accurate. We have nothing to prove it one way or the other except for a study they paid for some time back. When they claim they are sincere about their other issues my gag reflex is tested to the limit. Is there any way to get an accurate study done on the staffing problems they claim to have?

[td25er]

WOW you yes people are right, why didnt i see this before. I cnat believe i ever thought anything bad form our governemnt. I trust them to do the "RIGHT" thing with the money, lets all give them our first born and trust that they will grow our children to be exceleent leaders like they are. oh what joy.

seriously people if you trust that our governemtn will do it the right way you probably got some waking up todo.

What is your native language?

[gen70]

If the "NO" folks paid for a study of this issue it seems to me the results would come out in their slant.

[td25er]

I wonder how many others have Ronald Reagan as their role model one campaign. Talk about Illegal immigration in one breath and fiscal responsibility. Then a year or so later just SPEND SPEND SPEND. I listened to Kirk Hump on Flash Point as he ranted about the Spending in Washington, corporate welfare and the like. Then he sits their with that smug smile and soaks up and begs for Tax Dollars for MAPS...

Mick is a "flip flopper" Who know what he really is. He'll say anything to win or further his point. He's no different that what the said "Kerry" was. Perfect politician. Talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Then the worst is the "YES" folks are like sheep. Following MICK and the like around blindly...Can I get a BAHHHHHHHHHHHH....

Mr. MAYOR Let's DEBATE on MAPS!!!!! Let citizens hear both sides.

Some of us "yes people" are sick of the eye sore that occupies the area south of downtown. Others, like you, apparently enjoy the ghetto.

[BDP]

I wonder how many others have Ronald Reagan as their role model one campaign. Talk about Illegal immigration in one breath and fiscal responsibility. Then a year or so later just SPEND SPEND SPEND. I listened to Kirk Hump on Flash Point as he ranted about the Spending in Washington, corporate welfare and the like. Then he sits their with that smug smile and soaks up and begs for Tax Dollars for MAPS...

Mick is a "flip flopper" Who know what he really is. He'll say anything to win or further his point. He's no different that what the said "Kerry" was. Perfect politician. Talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Then the worst is the "YES" folks are like sheep. Following MICK and the like around blindly...Can I get a BAHHHHHHHHHHHH....

Mr. MAYOR Let's DEBATE on MAPS!!!!! Let citizens hear both sides.

Fiscal responsibility does not preclude spending. It essentially means that you don't spend more than you take in (aka deficit spending). Usually, fiscal responsibility discourages debt financing. MAPS is not a debt proposition, like, say, bond measures. It is actually a fiscally responsible measure, especially compared to any kind of dept proposition. It does increase spending, but by no more than revenue.

It is also a represented tax. While you certainly are not voting on where every brick will be laid or what kind of drapes will be hung in the new convention center, you are voting more directly on how it will be spent than with how the majority of your tax dollars are spent.

Also, it's different from federal spending in that your money isn't being taken out of your community and being spent on public transit in Salt Lake City. It is used to improve the infrastructure of your community, in YOUR city. Sure, it's not literally in your backyard (and some seem to be complaining about that), but it will not use structured debt and it will be spent in your city.

[purplemonkeythief]

Some of us "yes people" are sick of the eye sore that occupies the area south of downtown. Others, like you, apparently enjoy the ghetto.

Some of us "no people" are sick of the eye sores that occupy the rest of the city that make that "ghetto" south of Downtown look like Nichols Hills.

Why is it all about Downtown? OKC is not just Downtown.

[tehvipir]

really an anarchist? not even close. i just think that most politicians lie steal and cheet to get what they want and most do nothing but look after themselves. I dont like big governement asking the people for large amounts of money and they things that are to be built with the money just happens to help the friends of the mayor..

[Wambo36]

.
While I could appreciate public safety workers not being able to have time off, yet they have a contract so juicy - most firefighters and dare I say ALL police officers can pull near to over 6 figure salaries; without even working it. ....

Like I said, and so far have NOT seen a response from anybody - do you really want change (as in, would you revise the contract removing the OT provisions replacing with hires)?

You can't believe everything you read in the Jokalhoman. Near to 6 figure salaries refers to a very few at the top ranks of the FD.

You've been answered at least twice that I've seen. The overtime isn't a contractural provision. It's federal law. There it's been answered at least 3 times now.

[Popsy]

Guaranteed overtime, whether you work it or not, is a federal law????? Not saying I don't believe you, but could you site that law by it's legal classification where I could research it?

[FritterGirl]

I posted this in another thread, but am going to repost it here (sorry, mods).

The information, or rather, "misinformation" being put forth by the NotThisMaps campaign is laughable. Let's take a look at what they've quoted on their website.

Similar language was also included in a flyer that was mailed out (to how many households, I don't know).

Here's what the website (link above) states:

In the past, neither the police or fire departments have opposed the MAPS initiatives, but MAPS 3 has gone too far. Out of ¾ of a billion dollars, not one dime is being spent on education, roads, bridges, infrastructure or emergency services – namely police and fire. This site outlines the numerous reasons why the informed voter will have to vote NO on December 8th.

Does nobody remember the GO Bond issue passed just in December of 2007. The total of the bond package is nearly $800 million, almost $500 million of which is dedicated towards ROADS.

ROADS $497 million: This proposition finances resurfacing, widening and rebuilding of more than 750 lane miles of streets, mostly in residential areas. Walkers will also benefit from the construction of 350 miles of sidewalks and trails.

BRIDGES $19.7 million dedicated to bridge improvements that are UNDER CITY PURVIEW. Many of the bridges, such as I-40 crosstown, are under ODOT. But, why not, let's mislead the public by instilling fear in them. Nothing like "informing" voters.

INFRASTRUCTURE $32.8 in Drainage, $89 million for Parks & Recreation, and the list goes on.

FIRE is getting close to $15 million for new stations

As for EDUCATION, have you heard of MAPS FOR KIDS? A MAPS project which is more or less altruistic in its design as the City reaps few direct economic benefits in the same manner that it has from the original MAPS projects. The City, as in City government, is NOT responsible for basic education funding. THAT is taken care of through the STATE and the OKCPS, paid for through property taxes.

MAPS has and never will be INTENDED for BASIC NEEDS. It has always been about building the types of projects that go well above and beyond what is part of the "basic services package" for the City.

[tehvipir]

POPSY,
what people fail to know is that the overtime is 12 hours a MONTH. a MONTH. so 3 hours a week. so when we work 24 hours monday, 24 hours wed, 24 hourss friday and only get paid for 16 hours a day of those days we only get paid for 48 out of the 72 hours we are at work. normal jobs ould get paid all 72 hours but the Labor commision has had to make exceptions to the fire department. we dont get paid ot if we come in on our day off and work for someone. but 12 hours a month. dont believe the oklahoman they are all about slander.

[tehvipir]

its true firrtter girl. if we are getting so much money for roads and everythin you mentioned why are they still in poor shape. did you forget the bong issue in 200 for 2 firestations that the city is still keeping the money. yeah public safety number 1.

[FritterGirl]

Roads are still in poor shape because the City is STILL recovering from a 21-year funding drought (1974-1995) when NO BOND ISSUE projects were passed at all. It was, for all intents and purposes, the voters' fault as the City cannot make improvements without Bond Issue money, and the basic sales taxes which support operating costs, cannot legally provide funding for capital expenses.

The City got behind and is still playing catch up. All people have to do is go back and look at a little bit of history.

Further, the $497 million for roads is meted out each year as the bonds are sold. Many projects are still being funded with 2000 GO Bond money. It will take several years for roads to be improved. They can only close so many lanes at a time.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Nor will Oklahoma City be.

[BDP]

if we are getting so much money for roads and everythin you mentioned why are they still in poor shape.

Because we build too many of them and have too many lane miles to maintain in a manner that would keep people from complaining about them. Hopefully we can find a way to build a public transit system that helps lessen our dependence on roads and consolidate transportation corridors to maximize maintenance dollars per mile, instead of simply building more roads to maintain further and further away that less and less people travel on.

How could we go about starting to build such a system?? Hmmmm... I don't know. I guess we got to start somewhere. Probably a good idea to start in some central location, especially since a lot of the outer areas are getting new roads with the money from the bond issue. What's a central location?? Dowtown seems pretty centralized. If only we had the opportunity to fund a new form a transportation that consolidates maintenance into a few fixed corridors starting with downtown...

Oh wait, no, let's kill that so that maybe someone some day will float some more debt to spend more money on the crappy roads we already have...

[tehvipir]

you have got to be kidding to say that the reason our roads suck is becuase we have too many of them. really do you think we are the only city in the nation that has this many roads especially this many main roads. sorry but thats not the reason. poor engineering and not spending the money it will take to actually make the raod better is the problem. because you guys want apark instead of sending that money to the roads. no it wont be our park any more than the one down the street is.

[Urban Pioneer]

you have got to be kidding to say that the reason our roads suck is becuase we have too many of them. really do you think we are the only city in the nation that has this many roads especially this many main roads. sorry but thats not the reason. poor engineering and not spending the money it will take to actually make the raod better is the problem. because you guys want apark instead of sending that money to the roads. no it wont be our park any more than the one down the street is.

You don't know what you are talking about. We have historically been the largest city with the smallest population per square mile. Rather than spend the money on making life better for your children, you would rather spend it on autobahn quality alphalt for every square mile. Wake up and put the automobile it's place. Put it in the garage. Live closer and ride a bike. Better, get a hummer and then you won't have to worry about those pesky potholes.

Roads have nothing to do with MAPS. Transit does.

[kevinpate]

... The overtime isn't a contractural provision. It's federal law. There it's been answered at least 3 times now.

I think you're misreading the Q hot Rod is asking (or maybe I am)
I'll try to rephrase it to what I think he is asking:

Presumed the city decides it has the will to hire enough staff so that, under the new staffing levels, no one would ever work more than 40 hours in a work period again, i.e. no one would be eligible for overtime pay.
Would either the FD union or the FOP support the city taking this action, knowing the end of overtime would effectively result in paycuts for every one who used to be eligible for and used to work overtime hours.

I have no idea what it would take to reach that manpower level, and I do not know if the city would ever have the will to try it, but would the power of the unions, the rank and file, accept having no more overtime and resulting paycuts?

If I've mistated HR, I'm sure he will correct it.