Yes Maps 3

[Golfer]

Oh yea, I've been paying close attention. You still haven't mentioned any "anti-MAPS group" besides the unions...

They do not have to be a so-called group to be labeled no voters, but if you must have another group try killthismaps.com lead by a ex-legislator.

[SouthsideSooner]

When I used "groups" I wasn't talking about organized resistance, I was talking about people who didn't support it in a broad sense, a lot of whom aren't in the union's pockets. Is that better for your semantics?

I guess you weren't following the discussion, Chance....

I called out a poster who said that were other equally powerful "anti-Maps groups" besides the the unions. I asked who they were...

Turns out that they just happen to be super double secret groups who can't be named until after the election...LOL

[Chance23]

I guess you weren't following the discussion, Chance....

I called out a poster who said that were other equally powerful "anti-Maps groups" besides the the unions. I asked who they were...

Turns out that they just happen to be super double secret groups who can't be named until after the election...LOL

I guess reading isn't your strong suit, I wasn't responding to you when I made the first statement. I was responding to what Betts asked, and didn't weigh in at all on the discussion you created. You ended up taking it and trying to talk about something that doesn't have any bearing on if a person on the fence, like I am, should vote for or against it.

[rcjunkie]

When it comes to the 3 City Unions (Police, Fire. AFSCME) you can take it to the bank--it's all about the money, if they had been given or promised raises before MAPS3 was sent to a vote by the people, all three of them would have thrown their support for it's approval. I also have a hard time supporting the Unions when all three Union presidents are paid by the City.

All city employees have a lot to be thankful for, good pay and benefits that no other City or State employer can match:

Sick and VL (start the day hired)
Tuition reimbursement (and some get a pay raise when they get a degree that the City pays for.
Health and Dental (for employee and family at a cost of over $10,000 a year for every employee, including retired employees.

All this, and they cry for more!!

[SouthsideSooner]

You wrote...

From what I gather on their arguments, the anti-MAPS group thinks "no" will send a message to the city about setting feasible priorities, recognizing the concerns of citizens being asked to pay for projects while the city is laying them off, and a desire for transparency in government, which can't be done if you give a blank check every time they ask.

No, it's not pretty as a park, and you can't drive your SUV to it, but that doesn't mean it's toothless like you like to classify anything that disagrees with you. "Everyone is suffering" isn't an argument for a tax increase, no matter how many times people say it.

I responded to you...

That's funny...the only "anti-MAPS group" I see are the unions who are trying to punish the city for not meeting their demands...

You responded...

Have you tried looking? I've talked to anti-MAPS people who weren't city employees, aren't fans of LEO, and who live in the city who are against it, just like I've talked to pro-MAPS people who don't live in Gaillardia, drive Bentley's and pay for $10 lattes. It's not that hard if you look. I've tried to get both sides to give me info to make an informed decision myself, and not once have I turned to either of the unions (as Iron could probably tell you, I'm not a fan of police officers in general).

So...the only group you know of isn't actually a group...

[OKCGUY3]

Bobbyboy,

As a private developer, you can obviously talk about blank checks. I agree with you that this Maps plan is poorly constructed. Just like a lot of the new properties being built in this city! I see not much difference between the City leaders taking our tax money for pet projects and developers throwing up these poorly constructed neighborhoods and HAULING away the wheelbarrels of money that they overcharge the buyers. But like the citizens who will vote yes on MAPS, I guess you get what you pay for. (or sometimes you don't) Like the TV segments of in your corner or consumer watch say, never pay up front, and never work with someone who is unwilling to give you a detailed contract of what you are paying for. Hmmm is that what we are voting for?

[Chance23]

You wrote...

I responded to you...

You responded...

So...the only group you know of isn't actually a group...

I responded to Betts, where the word "group" (note how it's singular, not plural) would obviously be used to denote the overall segment of the population that were not for it and the combined statements of reasons they were against it.

You took it and created your own pointless semantic discussion based on your own definition of the word "group", instead wanting me to try to come up with organized resistance that had no ties two either of the groups you mentioned. I misunderstood and didn't think that you were wanting to create a pointless semantic discussion based on your re-definition of the word I used, and once I figured it out that you were, I decided that such an argument was pointless and that I had no interest in trying to prove the arbitrary point you wanted to claim I was trying to disprove.

I care about getting a varied source of facts and opinion to make an informed decision, not what the definition of "is" is.

[progressiveboy]

What developments in the inter-city have you participated in, BOB?

Good question! We are waiting for your response BOB??

[purplemonkeythief]

You cant be serious. You say its a good idea to commit $100 million of MAPS3dollars to build two golf courses? At Stanley Draper? This just shows how out of touch you and Iron are.

And wow, bobthebuilder must be the only private developer in OKC that is against MAPS3.

Is there a list of private developers living in OKC that are for MAPS3?

Still waiting on that list of private developers that are for MAPS3...

[mugofbeer]

Still waiting on that list of private developers that are for MAPS3...

Now you're being silly. Having a disagreement is one thing but silliness is another.

[purplemonkeythief]

Now you're being silly. Having a disagreement is one thing but silliness is another.

How is it silly? Someone accused Bobthebuilder of being the only private developer who is voting No. I'd like to see the list of private developers who are for MAPS3.

[BDP]

I called out a poster who said that were other equally powerful "anti-Maps groups" besides the the unions. I asked who they were..

Other than Unions they seem to be teabaggers and anti-tax groups looking to use Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty organization to execute its campaign.

NewsOK

[mugofbeer]

How is it silly? Someone accused Bobthebuilder of being the only private developer who is voting No. I'd like to see the list of private developers who are for MAPS3.

You're being silly.....

[purplemonkeythief]

You're being silly.....

No, seriously. Explain how it is silly for me to want a list of the Private developers who are for MAPS3.

Bobthebuilder was accused of something, I'd like to know it it is true or not. If it is true, then I'd like to see which private developers are supporting MAPS3.

Please explain, in detail, why that is silly.

I'd truly like to know.

[onthestrip]

No, seriously. Explain how it is silly for me to want a list of the Private developers who are for MAPS3.

Bobthebuilder was accused of something, I'd like to know it it is true or not. If it is true, then I'd like to see which private developers are supporting MAPS3.

Please explain, in detail, why that is silly.

I'd truly like to know.

I dont need a list, I just know it would be stupid to be against maps3 if one were a private developer. Why would you be against something that is incredibly positive for your line of work. Could you imagine a concrete company be against a bond for road improvements? Its no different.

Again, we havent heard what kind of developer BOB is, but it doesnt sound like one that is very bright.

[SouthsideSooner]

Still waiting on that list of private developers that are for MAPS3...

I haven't polled private developers but I have talked to the Odoms and the Mashburns, the two largest developers in SW OKC and they're for MAPS 3...

The South OKC Chamber, the largest collective group of businesses in S OKC is also on board for MAPS 3...

[Midtowner]

Again, we havent heard what kind of developer BOB is, but it doesnt sound like one that is very bright.

I wouldn't go that far, but it does seem his stance would not be in his best interest. I had the pleasure of attending a recent Urban Land Institute meeting where one of the speakers said something which should be elementary to developers, but to this young, dumb attorney, was pretty insightful. The speaker said that property values were nothing more than a reflection of how much people want to live in a community. A bit simplistic, but at the end of the day, it's tough to argue with that.

So it would seem to me that projects such as MAPS, which will undoubtedly make OKC a more attractive place to live to a lot of folks will inevitably result in higher property values and higher profits for developers.

Why a developer of any kind would want the status quo with regard to real estate prices is totally beyond me.

[tehvipir]

WOW you yes people are right, why didnt i see this before. I cnat believe i ever thought anything bad form our governemnt. I trust them to do the "RIGHT" thing with the money, lets all give them our first born and trust that they will grow our children to be exceleent leaders like they are. oh what joy.

seriously people if you trust that our governemtn will do it the right way you probably got some waking up todo.

[flintysooner]

WOW you yes people are right, why didnt i see this before. I cnat believe i ever thought anything bad form our governemnt. I trust them to do the "RIGHT" thing with the money, lets all give them our first born and trust that they will grow our children to be exceleent leaders like they are. oh what joy.

seriously people if you trust that our governemtn will do it the right way you probably got some waking up todo.

Ah. I thought you were probably an anarchist.

[iron76hd]

I wonder how many others have Ronald Reagan as their role model one campaign. Talk about Illegal immigration in one breath and fiscal responsibility. Then a year or so later just SPEND SPEND SPEND. I listened to Kirk Hump on Flash Point as he ranted about the Spending in Washington, corporate welfare and the like. Then he sits their with that smug smile and soaks up and begs for Tax Dollars for MAPS...

Mick is a "flip flopper" Who know what he really is. He'll say anything to win or further his point. He's no different that what the said "Kerry" was. Perfect politician. Talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Then the worst is the "YES" folks are like sheep. Following MICK and the like around blindly...Can I get a BAHHHHHHHHHHHH....

Mr. MAYOR Let's DEBATE on MAPS!!!!! Let citizens hear both sides.

[gen70]

Vote "YES" on MAPS!

[HOT ROD]

Some people never learn (or listen), but yet they want others to listen to them.

I've asked many of the Not This people, 1) if MAPS III doesn't pass, how they would improve the city and 2) would they agree to the city removing the OT contract requirement if the city would hire additional officers/force. ...

Im still waiting on an answer.

But I figured I would be, because it seems as that all their claims are rhetoric. They are trying to go after the mayor and using OKC as hostage. MAPS III should have nothing to do with public safety - but yet these people are so discontent with the mayor that they want to pull a political stunt that could jeopardize OKC's forward momentum for the next few years. NAME ONE private investment downtown that is slated for development anytime in the next 4+ years (aside from Devon)?

OKC needs this shot in the arm, to finish the job of building a tier 2 city. Will there be more work, sure - but we need the foundation and we need a tier 2 foundation in our core; YESTERDAY!!!

I am confident, if the MAPS 3 downtown projects are completed - retail will return to the core and that will create spin-off, that if zoned correctly will result in the high end/profile shopping alternatives that do not exist in this state.

Will somebody get rich developing it? SURE. That is the point of capitalism. Governments all the time gentrify areas to improve the tax base (and quality of life). As long as the rules are fair and equitable and there is proper oversight (and not just the good ole boys), then there is nothing wrong with public investment spurring private development.

No person owns any land adjacent to the central park area today, the city bought it all up. But I would EXPECT the city to sell off sections according to the C2S plan once the park is complete/near complete; and I would expect that the city would receive MORE than what it paid for in the land's current state. (that's also a victory, by the way). ...

I think people need to be less narrow minded and think more globally, think more futuristic - this is about Oklahoma City! That's what MAPS always is, you can't pick through and vote individually - that defeats the purpose of having MAPS in the first place.

Again, do you think the projects will improve OKC's QoL and/or image? Yes Or No.

I think YES - regardless of this or that (I have some bones, just like most people); but overall, we need this investment in our city.

VOTE YES!!!

[progressiveboy]

Some people never learn (or listen), but yet they want others to listen to them.

I've asked many of the Not This people, 1) if MAPS III doesn't pass, how they would improve the city and 2) would they agree to the city removing the OT contract requirement if the city would hire additional officers/force. ...

Im still waiting on an answer.

But I figured I would be, because it seems as that all their claims are rhetoric. They are trying to go after the mayor and using OKC as hostage. MAPS III should have nothing to do with public safety - but yet these people are so discontent with the mayor that they want to pull a political stunt that could jeopardize OKC's forward momentum for the next few years. NAME ONE private investment downtown that is slated for development anytime in the next 4+ years (aside from Devon)?

OKC needs this shot in the arm, to finish the job of building a tier 2 city. Will there be more work, sure - but we need the foundation and we need a tier 2 foundation in our core; YESTERDAY!!!

I am confident, if the MAPS 3 downtown projects are completed - retail will return to the core and that will create spin-off, that if zoned correctly will result in the high end/profile shopping alternatives that do not exist in this state.

Will somebody get rich developing it? SURE. That is the point of capitalism. Governments all the time gentrify areas to improve the tax base (and quality of life). As long as the rules are fair and equitable and there is proper oversight (and not just the good ole boys), then there is nothing wrong with public investment spurring private development.

No person owns any land adjacent to the central park area today, the city bought it all up. But I would EXPECT the city to sell off sections according to the C2S plan once the park is complete/near complete; and I would expect that the city would receive MORE than what it paid for in the land's current state. (that's also a victory, by the way). ...

I think people need to be less narrow minded and think more globally, think more futuristic - this is about Oklahoma City! That's what MAPS always is, you can't pick through and vote individually - that defeats the purpose of having MAPS in the first place.

Again, do you think the projects will improve OKC's QoL and/or image? Yes Or No.

I think YES - regardless of this or that (I have some bones, just like most people); but overall, we need this investment in our city.

VOTE YES!!!

Agree. It seems the naysayers have no substantial backup to their rhetoric or that they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the leaders of OKC will not fulfill the promises of MAPS3. All one has to do is look at the undeniable success that MAPS 1 and 2 did for OKC. As I mentioned earlier, many naysayers act like this is a big conspiracy and that MAPS is not in the interest of their own lives? Yes, I am sure that $$$ figures will have to be readjusted and there will probably be cost overruns but the benefit that OKC will receive will be a more well rounded city and that outsiders perception of OKC will change. It is bad that "some" residents in OKC do not want progress no matter at what cost, but when outsiders perceive your city in a negative way then it is time that change must take place in order to remain competitive in the region. Sometimes people have to take a risk and gamble in order for things to get done. It is time to put a little faith in your city leaders and make things happen!

[purplemonkeythief]

Some people never learn (or listen), but yet they want others to listen to them.

I've asked many of the Not This people, 1) if MAPS III doesn't pass, how they would improve the city and 2) would they agree to the city removing the OT contract requirement if the city would hire additional officers/force. ...

1) Start by re-opening some of the aquatic centers that have been closed over the last few years. MAPS and M4K were hugely successful, right? Then prove it by using the tax revenue earned from the previous MAPS to fund the aquatic centers that were shut down due to lack of funding.

2) I think I read on here that the whole OT thing is a legal requirement, not a contractual one?

I'm not against MAPS3 because of the police/fire union thing anyway so I'm not up to speed on your issue #2.

[HOT ROD]

Progressive, that's what MAPS is - a gamble.

OKC took a gamble, and so far it has worked for 15 years. Whose to say this next gamble will not work? Cornett was in office while the other two MAPS were being completed, do you really think things would change that much because he chose to stick around as mayor (he could have run for Senator or higher) - JUST TO MAKE SURE MAPS 3 and C2S vision gets implemented?

I totally see past the bs most of the naysayers are posting on this forum - they are doing a firesale against the mayor. But when you ask any real question, you get no response, only apathy.

MAPS isn't perfect, and like I have said time and time again 1) I can not stand that the fairgrounds keep milking MAPS when they have several revenue streams already and 2) I think we should have started talking about MAPS 3 LONG before the late September announcement (at least should have been announced in like - June).

But arguing tit for tat and the mayor this and that, has no substance. It is not constructive. And is nothing more than whining and causing trouble. It is also very troubling "trying" to listen to any of their leaders who spit wrong figures and assumptions to scare people into believing their position.

While I could appreciate public safety workers not being able to have time off, yet they have a contract so juicy - most firefighters and dare I say ALL police officers can pull near to over 6 figure salaries; without even working it. ....

Like I said, and so far have NOT seen a response from anybody - do you really want change (as in, would you revise the contract removing the OT provisions replacing with hires)?

Or is this "Not This MAPS" rhetoric really just a song and dance attempt against the mayor's vision for OKC? So far, I have seen no merit and I am tired of having to listen to somebody screaming at the top of their lungs about the lack of public safety funding - when they are guaranteed such an impressive salary regardless if they work it.

I hate to say this, but I wish somebody would come out and call the Not This campaign what it really is. Because now was NOT the time for this. Too bad I'm not an OKC resident anymore - I'd lead the charge.