New MAPS Website- MAPS Facts.org

[betts]

WHAT THE...!?!?!?!?

No need to say any more...

You should be blocked.

Again. That would be thrice, IIRC.

[Spartan]

Are you saying there is no mis-information being thrown at the public by the City?

You be the judge of that, but this is the level of misinformation that the anti-MAPS goons are throwing out there:

GOT AN EXTRA $930?
MAPS 3 sales tax will cost about $930 for the average OKC resident. About $10 per month for this 93-month project. (Based on an economic analysis conducted by Dr. Mark Snead, OSU, for the Oklahoma City Finance Department).

Mayor Cornett asked OKC residents what they wanted: They said: Transit (light rail, streetcars, etc.) and Infrastructure, including streets. See results on website: MAPS 3 | Oklahoma City

What we’re getting!
OKC’s 3rd convention center (in addition to Cox Convention Center and the Ford Center)
70-acre park downtown. Why? A request by Devon Energy.
Irresponsible destruction of the Union Station Rail Yard---After ignoring thousands of requests to save OKC’s Union Station rail yard from destruction, the OKC Council is asking for our MAPS 3 sales tax money for “a downtown transit hub which will link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems” – exactly the reason Union Station’s invaluable, irreplaceable rail yard was built in the first place.

VOTE NO – MAPS 3, DECEMBER 8
Citizen Patriots, P.O. Box 19863, OKC 73144

I bolded all the lies. First MAPS won't cost everyone an average $930 a year that's ridiculous. More like $400 for a family of four, but it's not AN INCREASE in the first place so there's "0" extra. Not $930. Second of all this isn't a 3rd convention center, since when did the Ford become a convention center?? 3rd of all the downtown park is not a request by Devon Energy, that is the Myriad Garden renovations, which Devon is paying for themselves. Then the destruction of Union Station's rail yard has nothing to do with MAPS, that's the Crosstown project that ODOT is doing. And Union Station wasn't built to accommodate urban transit in the first place, it was built to accommodate freight. And lastly, I think it's also a lie for this group to call themselves "Citizen Patriots" because patriots don't lie.

So I don't know..I don't think the city is that bad after all.

[betts]

Spartan, you forgot the diabolical plot by the nefarious Humphreys family to get the convention center built on the site of the downtown airpark.

That's my personal favorite. I think it's hysterical that these people either have no idea where the airpark is, or they have no idea where the proposed sites for the convention center are, or both. I wonder if they've even driven the area in question at all, much less studied the city's plans on the Core to Shore site.

[andy157]

You be the judge of that, but this is the level of misinformation that the anti-MAPS goons are throwing out there:



I bolded all the lies. First MAPS won't cost everyone an average $930 a year that's ridiculous. More like $400 for a family of four, but it's not AN INCREASE in the first place so there's "0" extra. Not $930. Second of all this isn't a 3rd convention center, since when did the Ford become a convention center?? 3rd of all the downtown park is not a request by Devon Energy, that is the Myriad Garden renovations, which Devon is paying for themselves. Then the destruction of Union Station's rail yard has nothing to do with MAPS, that's the Crosstown project that ODOT is doing. And Union Station wasn't built to accommodate urban transit in the first place, it was built to accommodate freight. And lastly, I think it's also a lie for this group to call themselves "Citizen Patriots" because patriots don't lie.

So I don't know..I don't think the city is that bad after all.

I have, and in my judgement the City has put out some mis-information. Here, I'll give you an easy one. The Mayor and Councilman Marrs have both stated Police and Fire have been receiving MAPS 4 KIDS Use Tax. Thats true. They claim the amount is in excess of 60 million dollars. Thats not true. They go on to claim that P&F have been getting the tax since 2001. Thats not true. Here's the funny part. How did the City spend MAPS 4 KIDS Use Tax on the P&F in 2001 when the tax went into effect 1/1/2002? So I'll ask you a different question. Is it OK to put out mis-information irregardless of who's putting it out as long as it is kept below a certain level?

[Spartan]

Spartan, you forgot the diabolical plot by the nefarious Humphreys family to get the convention center built on the site of the downtown airpark.

That's my personal favorite. I think it's hysterical that these people either have no idea where the airpark is, or they have no idea where the proposed sites for the convention center are, or both. I wonder if they've even driven the area in question at all, much less studied the city's plans on the Core to Shore site.

I would rather it go there than against Shields Blvd LOL. I would agree with you're assessment that it's questionable if these people have ever been downtown in a long time, or if they even get out very much.

[Midtowner]

Thats not true. They go on to claim that P&F have been getting the tax since 2001. Thats not true. Here's the funny part. How did the City spend MAPS 4 KIDS Use Tax on the P&F in 2001 when the tax went into effect 1/1/2002?

since  [sins] Show IPA
in the period following the time when: He has written once since he left.

Since 2001 would be 1/1/2002 and thereafter... so this would be true.

[andy157]

Since 2001 would be 1/1/2002 and thereafter... so this would be true.

Thats pretty slick. The first time they received the money was in 2007. But I guess it doesn't matter since 07 came sometime after 01.

[Midtowner]

Just using the words you typed andy.

[andy157]

Just using the words you typed andy.

I guess you got me. I didn't include this earlier, but if they claim a figure of 60 million when the fact is the actual amount is less than 1/2 that. Is that mis-information, or did I miss another play on words?

[Midtowner]

I guess you got me. I didn't include this earlier, but if they claim a figure of 60 million when the fact is the actual amount is less than 1/2 that. Is that mis-information, or did I miss another play on words?

Dunno Andy. You first said the tax went into effect in 2002. Then you said it was 2007. Now you're making claims about when and how much money was received.

I don't actually know what is true here... It's just that what you're saying doesn't quite compute.

[andy157]

Dunno Andy. You first said the tax went into effect in 2002. Then you said it was 2007. Now you're making claims about when and how much money was received.

I don't actually know what is true here... It's just that what you're saying doesn't quite compute.

OK Mid you win. But your smarter than that.

[Larry OKC]

First MAPS won't cost everyone an average $930 a year that's ridiculous. More like $400 for a family of four, but it's not AN INCREASE in the first place so there's "0" extra. Not $930...

Not sure about the $930 part but since these were numbers prepared for the City...

But to answer the bolded part, it is a NEW tax and therefore a tax increase. The City's MAPS 3 Survey site explained it pretty well (replace any mention of MAPS for Kids with the Ford tax and adjust the dates)

MAPS 3 | OKlahoma City

How much would a MAPS 3 sales tax increase the current sales tax rate in Oklahoma City?
It would not increase the rate from where it currently stands, but the MAPS for Kids one-cent sales tax will end at the end of 2008. At that time, the sales tax rate in Oklahoma City will decrease by one cent on every dollar. Approval of a one-cent MAPS 3 sales tax would return the sales tax rate to the level it is at currently.

Why do the people vote?
All new sales tax increases must be approved by the people. Though a MAPS 3 sales tax would not increase the sales tax rate from where it is today, the one-cent MAPS for Kids sales tax is temporary, and will expire at the end of 2008. A MAPS 3 sales tax would be a new tax. It would also be temporary.

The City modified it somewhat on the current MAPS 3 site:

City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing

How much would a MAPS sales tax increase the current sales tax rate in Oklahoma City?
It would not increase the rate from where it currently stands.

Why do the people vote on tax initiatives?
All new sales taxes must be approved by the people. Though this sales tax will not increase the sales tax rate in Oklahoma City, the current sports facilities sales tax is temporary (just as MAPS will be) and expires at the end of March, 2010.

The modified answer doesn't seem to be all that different but they pretty much left out the part about the tax going down and then back up again. Wonder why that is?

The Ford tax expires March 31 (at midnight). The MAPS 3 tax will take effect at 12:00 am, April 1. This makes it look like nothing has changed...the rate is the same (no increase). What would make it obvious to everyone that it is a tax increase, if there was even one day between the two taxes (going back to the original language on the Survey site).

March 31 (8.375%)
April 1 (7.375%) as someone pointed out this would be a 12% DROP in the sales tax rate
April 2 (8.375%) if allowed to drop, then raised back up again, this would be a 13.5% INCREASE.

Percentages can be interesting things. Notice to get the tax rate back up to the same 8.375% there is a net difference of 1.5% between the drop and the increase (still only a penny either way).

This is why they can not allow any gap to happen between the two temporary taxes. Obvious tax increases are a harder sell to the voters. Personally think this is what they really mean by "continuing the momentum" (it is the tax momentum that they don't want stopped).

Second of all this isn't a 3rd convention center, since when did the Ford become a convention center?? ...

Can understand where the confusion might be regarding the Ford as being a Convention Center. The original MAPS ballot labels it that way and the Mayor even mentioned it at one point during the Ford tax vote.

Ballot text provided courtesy of Doug on the 1st page of the "New info on MAPS 3" thread

From the 1993 MAPS Ballot (Ordinance 20,045):

Subsection
(B)(7) An indoor sports/convention facility meeting not less than National Hockey League (NHL) or National Basketball Association (NBA) standards.

and the Mayor:
(Greater Oklahoma City Chamber - Official Home Page )

“This investment will not only help us attract our own NBA franchise, but also will make us more desirable for bigger and better concerts, special events and conventions.”

So I can understand where some have said that this will be OKC's third convention center:
1. Cox CONVENTION Center,
2. Ford (see above) and
3. New MAPS 3 convention center

3rd of all the downtown park is not a request by Devon Energy, that is the Myriad Garden renovations, which Devon is paying for themselves. ...

I haven't read anything that supports the MAPS 3 Park/Devon request either. But the bolded part? Not quite. It is true that Devon is not using the money to be put back into the Devon campus, Devon isn't paying for the M.G. renovations either. The City is paying for the improvements, Devon is just loaning the $95M to the City upfront, to be paid back (with interest). It is my understanding that TIF money is also borrowed money (paid back with anticipated future increases in the property taxes in the TIF district). So my question is, how many times are we borrowing and paying back this money?

NewsOK
Oklahoma City's Myriad Gardens to receive makeover

...With construction of the new headquarters set at $750 million, Nichols surprised many downtown observers by asking that the tax increment financing (TIF) proceeds from the project not be used for amenities for the corporate campus, but rather to improve the surrounding downtown neighborhood.
The Myriad Gardens is the biggest single beneficiary of the TIF, with $35 million dedicated to making it a people place by adding amenities requested by residents. ...

By STEVE LACKMEYER NewsOK.com
Devon lends money for OKC downtown plan (9/24/2009)

OKLAHOMA CITY — Devon Energy Corp. is extending a $95 million line of credit to Oklahoma City to expedite completion of an ambitious downtown makeover being launched in conjunction with construction of a new corporate headquarters.

Devon is set to host a groundbreaking celebration Oct. 6 for its $750 million, 50-story tower to be built across from the Myriad Gardens. A new, $115 million tax-increment financing district was set up at Devon's request to fund a makeover of downtown streets and parks. ...

[betts]

Not sure about the $930 part but since these were numbers prepared for the City... But to answer the bolded part, it is a NEW tax and therefore a tax increase. The City's MAPS 3 Survey site explained it pretty well (replace any mention of MAPS for Kids with the Ford tax and adjust the dates)

This is why they can not allow any gap to happen between the two temporary taxes. Obvious tax increases are a harder sell to the voters. Personally think this is what they really mean by "continuing the momentum" (it is the tax momentum that they don't want stopped).

Larry, I've always understood your point regarding whether the tax would increase or not, but isn't this really semantics? To the voter, there would be no discernable change in the tax rate, were the MAPS tax not allowed to expire. I suspect what the city is trying to get across to the voter is that if the MAPS tax continues, their sales tax will be no higher than it is right now. Technically, both sides are correct on this issue, I believe. So, one slightly disingenuous statement probably cancels out the other.

Can understand where the confusion might be regarding the Ford as being a Convention Center. The original MAPS ballot labels it that way and the Mayor even mentioned it at one point during the Ford tax vote.

So I can understand where some have said that this will be OKC's third convention center:
1. Cox CONVENTION Center,
2. Ford (see above) and
3. New MAPS 3 convention center

Now, we all know that the Ford Center is not a convention center in its own right, regardless of what it has been called. I would assume that, with a large convention, the space could be used as an adjunct to another convention center, so one could presumably consider it additional space, not a freestanding center. But, the inaccuracy doesn't really even relate to the Ford Center, as, once the new convention center is constructed, the Cox Convention Center will presumably cease to exist as one, leaving us with one and overflow space again, rather than 3 convention centers. The number 3 is an incorrect one, regardless of what the Ford Center is or isn't.

I haven't read anything that supports the MAPS 3 Park/Devon request either. But the bolded part? Not quite. It is true that Devon is not using the money to be put back into the Devon campus, Devon isn't paying for the M.G. renovations either. The City is paying for the improvements, Devon is just loaning the $95M to the City upfront, to be paid back (with interest). It is my understanding that TIF money is also borrowed money (paid back with anticipated future increases in the property taxes in the TIF district).

And again, the inaccuracy in the MAPS opposition's point is not who is paying for the Myriad Gardens makeover, but rather that Larry Nichols has requested the 70 acre park. The opposition is again either completely uneducated about the plans for MAPS (versus the Myriad Gardens), do not know their city geography or are deliberately attempting to mislead the voters. This isn't just about semantics.

[flintysooner]

This thread reminds me of the Myers-Briggs perceiving dichotomy. On one hand are the (S) sensing who cannot see anything until the details are perfect. On the other the (N) intuitive who stops at the big picture.

[betts]

Or none of us have made it past Erickson's first stage of trust versus mistrust!

You're right, though, flinty, in that different personality types perceive things differently. Different personality types react to things differently, and that's as much what makes us Republicans or Democrats, more willing to spend money on others, more interested in keeping what we've made, more of a global versus local thinker and on and on. Our individual personality makes it impossible for many of us to perceive the other person's point of view, or even if we can perceive it, to understand where they're coming from. So, we will continue to debate, anytime there's a controversial issue and shake our heads at the other person's point of view, which is as much a part of what makes him or her unique as ours is.

[iron76hd]

that's as much what makes us Republicans or Democrats, more willing to spend money on others, more interested in keeping what we've made, more of a global versus local thinker and on and on.

I'd be careful about knowing who is Republican or Democrat by their stance on this issue. I've been a little stunned by the side some claim to be on by this issue. It's funny the ones at the top of this argument claim to be republican. Admonishing the Government Health Plan and "big government" in general, but then push THIS tax so relentlessly. Some personal gain in it for them maybe?

So, we will continue to debate, anytime there's a controversial issue and shake our heads at the other person's point of view, which is as much a part of what makes him or her unique as ours is.

Agreed. I can assure you with a few changes (ballot language), shorter time frame, a couple of less projects, addressed some obvious NEEDS of the city first, and a little later proposal (when revenues start to come back up) and you might be surprised how much support THIS MAPS would have gotten.

I will say after looking at this entire deal a little more closely and following the "money trail" it's clear why this is being pushed so hard. When you've gotten your hand in so much Private Business associated with the city. I think it's a lot harder to do what's best for the city. That's what's happening and that's what I have a problem with now also.

[betts]

I'd be careful about knowing who is Republican or Democrat by their stance on this issue. I've been a little stunned by the side some claim to be on by this issue. It's funny the ones at the top of this argument claim to be republican. Admonishing the Government Health Plan and "big government" in general, but then push THIS tax so relentlessly. Some personal gain in it for them maybe?

I didn't say one could tell who is Republican and Democrat from their stance on MAPS. In fact, the most interesting thing is that it really transcends politics for many people. I suspect more people on this forum are pro MAPS than anti MAPS, and you'd see a wide range of political affiliations if we all gave ours. And yet, I also suspect that virtually none of us will receive any personal gain from it. I heard the same thing with the MAPS tax for the Ford Center, that it was a "Maps for millionaires" and yet many more people voted for it than against it, and those of us who did are going to have a great time in the Ford Center tonight (on ESPN!) despite not making a penny from MAPS. Getting an NBA team is one of the best things that's happened to Oklahoma City in a long time, IMO, and we as voters had something to do with that. A big thanks to Clay Bennett et al for that as well.

I will say after looking at this entire deal a little more closely and following the "money trail" it's clear why this is being pushed so hard. When you've gotten your hand in so much Private Business associated with the city, I think it's a lot harder to do what's best for the city. That's what's happening and that's what I have a problem with now also.

So, you've found the money trail? Care to elaborate? And, many of us would argue that our city leaders do care about what's best for the city. MAPS is the single greatest thing I've seen in this city since I've moved here. It's transformed this city, and by trying to continue doing so, I have to thank our city leaders for their vision. It may not be perfect, but it's better than what we would have without it by a long shot.

[Spartan]

Not sure about the $930 part but since these were numbers prepared for the City...

But to answer the bolded part, it is a NEW tax and therefore a tax increase. The City's MAPS 3 Survey site explained it pretty well (replace any mention of MAPS for Kids with the Ford tax and adjust the dates)

MAPS 3 | OKlahoma City



The City modified it somewhat on the current MAPS 3 site:

City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing



The modified answer doesn't seem to be all that different but they pretty much left out the part about the tax going down and then back up again. Wonder why that is?

The Ford tax expires March 31 (at midnight). The MAPS 3 tax will take effect at 12:00 am, April 1. This makes it look like nothing has changed...the rate is the same (no increase). What would make it obvious to everyone that it is a tax increase, if there was even one day between the two taxes (going back to the original language on the Survey site).

March 31 (8.375%)
April 1 (7.375%) as someone pointed out this would be a 12% DROP in the sales tax rate
April 2 (8.375%) if allowed to drop, then raised back up again, this would be a 13.5% INCREASE.

Percentages can be interesting things. Notice to get the tax rate back up to the same 8.375% there is a net difference of 1.5% between the drop and the increase (still only a penny either way).

This is why they can not allow any gap to happen between the two temporary taxes. Obvious tax increases are a harder sell to the voters. Personally think this is what they really mean by "continuing the momentum" (it is the tax momentum that they don't want stopped).

Well you're wrong there. "Continuing the momentum" means escaping the recession, continuing to rank at the top of every list of rankings that are put out, and competing for jobs in a tough economy. That's what it's all about.

Your point on the tax is utter semantics. You know that there is no tax increase by continuing a tax that we have paid since 1993. If you want to argue semantics, let's talk about the 2% pay cut that the police and fire unions are balking about. The reality is that the city has suggested public safety bypass their 2% RAISE and not get their RAISE this year. ALL other city employees have already been told they won't get their RAISE this year, and if the city turns around and gives cops a 2% RAISE when nobody else gets a 2% RAISE that's unfair.

There's another funny thing about percentages, if you wanna argue semantics (not that public safety still has anything to do with MAPS).

Can understand where the confusion might be regarding the Ford as being a Convention Center. The original MAPS ballot labels it that way and the Mayor even mentioned it at one point during the Ford tax vote.

Ballot text provided courtesy of Doug on the 1st page of the "New info on MAPS 3" thread

From the 1993 MAPS Ballot (Ordinance 20,045):



and the Mayor:
(Greater Oklahoma City Chamber - Official Home Page )


So I can understand where some have said that this will be OKC's third convention center:
1. Cox CONVENTION Center,
2. Ford (see above) and
3. New MAPS 3 convention center

Anybody who has ever referred to the Ford Center is a highly ig'nant individual and that's all there is to that.

I haven't read anything that supports the MAPS 3 Park/Devon request either. But the bolded part? Not quite. It is true that Devon is not using the money to be put back into the Devon campus, Devon isn't paying for the M.G. renovations either. The City is paying for the improvements, Devon is just loaning the $95M to the City upfront, to be paid back (with interest). It is my understanding that TIF money is also borrowed money (paid back with anticipated future increases in the property taxes in the TIF district). So my question is, how many times are we borrowing and paying back this money?

NewsOK
Oklahoma City's Myriad Gardens to receive makeover



By STEVE LACKMEYER NewsOK.com
Devon lends money for OKC downtown plan (9/24/2009)

[/QUOTE]

The money that is being used to completely renovate the Myriad Gardens and the surrounding downtown streets is coming from the TIF district around the Devon Tower project. Typically when a $750 million skyscraper is built the TIF around it goes to utilities for such a large project, but instead Devon is not taking that money and has instead requested that it be put back into the downtown community to make various improvements. The city has loaned the City the TIF money upfront in order to get the improvements made before the tower is finished rather than several years after the TIF is collecting property tax from the tower.

So yes, Devon has funded the Myriad renovations as well as the downtown streetscape projects. And then for the opposition to confuse this with a Devon demand for a downtown park isn't just insulting to Devon (whose generosity is completely renovating the Myriad gardens and every downtown street) but it's also incredibly uneducated. What more do you expect from the opposition, besides incredibly uneducated conclusions and offensive remarks against downtown leaders?

[Spartan]

I'd be careful about knowing who is Republican or Democrat by their stance on this issue. I've been a little stunned by the side some claim to be on by this issue. It's funny the ones at the top of this argument claim to be republican. Admonishing the Government Health Plan and "big government" in general, but then push THIS tax so relentlessly. Some personal gain in it for them maybe?

Well the idea is that MAPS has always been about investing in the community to attract new businesses to OKC. It's always been about making OKC the kind of city that needs less welfare, has less crime, and all that stuff. The direct result of MAPS isn't "less crime" or "better demographics" or "better education" (except with MAPS for Kids) but rather the direct result has always been MORE JOBS.

You have to take a look at how we got to where we enacted MAPS in 1993. We wanted to give corporations large amounts of CASH to come to OKC, corporate welfare at its most disgusting level. But not even that would work because the corporations eliminated OKC, saying "no one would want to live here." And it was true. So instead of giving these companies incentives to chose OKC we stopped doing that and decided to invest IN OKC instead. Therefor corporations don't get the benefits of our economic development, instead the PEOPLE will always get the benefits of our economic development. We created a city that people would want to live in so that we could improve our economy that way, and it worked. Now the work is hardly complete as cities are constantly evolving and we must keep up.

It's always been a very Republican concept to invest in the economy. Democrats would typically argue that these amenities aren't needed and they'd rather a MAPS tax, and all other taxes, go towards schools, healthcare, and welfare. Handouts to the poor. Republicans would rather use public resources to invest in the economy and get a greater return for a larger number of people, essentially, everybody with the initiative to go and participate in an improved economy (fill out a job application basically) will be the benefactors of the MAPS program.

Why don't you take that for "big government" and shove it. If you want to divide people on Republican/Democrat issues, go to California or some place, or just go home and keep the TV tuned to FOX News and never leave your house, because in the real world you actually have to move beyond dividing people as Republicans and Democrats. The best thing about OKC is that our mayoral elections are nonpartisan, which allows us to move past the conservative and liberal labels in CITY politics.

Furthermore, why do conservatives hate big government? Are conservatives really on a crusade to end big government, or just big government that they dislike? I have never once heard a "real conservative" argue over the defense budget and the military industrial complex. That's the biggest government that there is. Where are the budget hawks on that? Furthermore, I would argue that "big government" is just rhetoric that means "I don't want lots of money going towards liberal causes."

When I think of "big government" I immediately think of my disdain for the federal government. I dislike pretty much everything about the federal government, in fact, I often wish Oklahoma would join Texas and that the two states would just secede from the Union and let the rest of America go to hell.

We have this thing called the 10th Amendment that leaves powers to more local forms of government, and to this day, I would argue that while the federal government is ridiculously and hopelessly mired in crap, there's one level of government that is still working for the people it claims to represent: the local level. Here in OKC at least, the local level has been very accountable and responsive to the people, which is why OKC has made so much progress. OKC is actually viewed by the outside world as a "progressive city" because of how much we've invested in economic development, and how successful it's been. If we turn down MAPS 3 that changes.

[iron76hd]

So, you've found the money trail? Care to elaborate? And, many of us would argue that our city leaders do care about what's best for the city. MAPS is the single greatest thing I've seen in this city since I've moved here. It's transformed this city, and by trying to continue doing so, I have to thank our city leaders for their vision. It may not be perfect, but it's better than what we would have without it by a long shot.

Cornett Blogs
Right there in black and white..

[iron76hd]

Well you're wrong there. "Continuing the momentum" means escaping the recession, continuing to rank at the top of every list of rankings that are put out, and competing for jobs in a tough economy. That's what it's all about.

What can you guarantee us if we pass MAPS3? We aren't escaping the recession jack? We are on the tail end of it and who know how much worse it's going to get. You sure don't. MAPS3 is going to stop the recession? Wake up!

The reality is that the city has suggested public safety bypass their 2% RAISE and not get their RAISE this year.

That's a LIE! Get your facts strait before you spew at the mouth! You sound like the Mayor's "boy". You want dig into the Chambers numbers and blah blah blah. Go ahead, but start spouting things that aren't true and I'll call you on it.

If you want to argue semantics, let's talk about the 2% pay cut that the police and fire unions are balking about.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The 2% cut wasn't PAY! It was a BUDGET cut. Across the board for each division. Police, Fire, and City Employee's departments. The city is BROKE. They will lay off personnel. Personnel that is already working short handed. They are going to send them home. They can't pay their bills in the "BIG LEAGUE" city. They can't fund the short staffed positions they have now, so here's an idea. Let's build a park and make that the focus of our City! I quit reading the rest, because your not working with facts. Just your "hot air".

[betts]

Cornett Blogs
Right there in black and white..

Huh? Sorry, care to relate that to MAPS? Ackerman-McQueen is an advertising agency, not a developer. Again, Mark Shannon is not a reliable source. He's a radio talk show host without a college degree. He's not an economist, political scientist, lawyer or anything of the sort. I see black and white, but it's abstract art.

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

What can you guarantee us if we pass MAPS3? We aren't escaping the recession jack? We are on the tail end of it and who know how much worse it's going to get. You sure don't. MAPS3 is going to stop the recession? Wake up!

That's a LIE! Get your facts strait before you spew at the mouth! You sound like the Mayor's "boy". You want dig into the Chambers numbers and blah blah blah. Go ahead, but start spouting things that aren't true and I'll call you on it.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The 2% cut wasn't PAY! It was a BUDGET cut. Across the board for each division. Police, Fire, and City Employee's departments. The city is BROKE. They will lay off personnel. Personnel that is already working short handed. They are going to send them home. They can't pay their bills in the "BIG LEAGUE" city. They can't fund the short staffed positions they have now, so here's an idea. Let's build a park and make that the focus of our City! I quit reading the rest, because your not working with facts. Just your "hot air".

Has anyone thought that there may be other reasons why sales tax collections in OKC have been down the last 9 months or so other than a bad economy. We are supposed to be the number 1 most recession proof city in the United States if I am not mistaken. I wonder how much of an increase in tax revenue that Moore, Norman, and MWC have had in the last year or so. I wonder if it is a significant enough increase to offset our decrease. Just something to think about....Thought I might bring this over from the I-40 and Council thread, page 8. I hope that it doesnt offend anyone.

[andy157]

What can you guarantee us if we pass MAPS3? We aren't escaping the recession jack? We are on the tail end of it and who know how much worse it's going to get. You sure don't. MAPS3 is going to stop the recession? Wake up!

That's a LIE! Get your facts strait before you spew at the mouth! You sound like the Mayor's "boy". You want dig into the Chambers numbers and blah blah blah. Go ahead, but start spouting things that aren't true and I'll call you on it.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The 2% cut wasn't PAY! It was a BUDGET cut. Across the board for each division. Police, Fire, and City Employee's departments. The city is BROKE. They will lay off personnel. Personnel that is already working short handed. They are going to send them home. They can't pay their bills in the "BIG LEAGUE" city. They can't fund the short staffed positions they have now, so here's an idea. Let's build a park and make that the focus of our City! I quit reading the rest, because your not working with facts. Just your "hot air".

iron76hd your right. You know Spartan really is a pretty sharp kid, but he had his facts all screwed up regarding the 2% raise v budget cut issue. Hopefully, at least on this issue he will accept the truth.

[Larry OKC]

...We are supposed to be the number 1 most recession proof city in the United States if I am not mistaken. I wonder how much of an increase in tax revenue that Moore, Norman, and MWC have had in the last year or so. ...

The "most recession proof" label was for Cities of similar characteristics (population mainly, I think). And thank you for including the "most" as many leave that out. It's a relative thing...compared to many other cities in the US, we are coming up roses.

Not sure if the other cities you mentioned are in the group or not (don't have those articles bookmarked), but there were some in the metro area that have actually seen sales tax increases (without any change to their tax rates) during the same time that OKC has been having double digit shortfalls.