Why Religion Must End

[gmwise]

Maybe I should have just nodded and kept my confusion to myself. In dealing with men, sometimes it is just better to do that...

and really a lawyer should know stuff like that...lol

[PennyQuilts]

and really a lawyer should know stuff like that...lol

I am a bad lawyer, I suppose.

[Stan Silliman]

Yes, indeed. I asked Stan to change it since we'll be home, soon. What is wrong with the other hand?

My right hand went all Bob Dole on me. Right about the same time my hair went Kramer.

So now I'm a left-handed eraserhead. On the plus side,,, left handers are more creative.

[DaveSkater]

Maybe I should have just nodded and kept my confusion to myself. In dealing with men, sometimes it is just better to do that...

I know the reverse is always the case. Just smile and nod knowingly!

[HVAC Instructor]

I am a bad lawyer, I suppose.

Reading your posts these last few months, I'd have to say this is one of our rare moments of agreement.

[buckt]

Reading your posts these last few months, I'd have to say this is one of our rare moments of agreement.

Mr. Instructor - here is an honest question. Where would sense of right and wrong come from in your religion free world? For instance - would murder be wrong in your religion free world? If so, why would it be wrong? Just wondering....

[HVAC Instructor]

Mr. Instructor - here is an honest question. Where would sense of right and wrong come from in your religion free world? For instance - would murder be wrong in your religion free world? If so, why would it be wrong? Just wondering....

Fair question, which requires me to ask you a question. Or two:

Does morality only exist within religion?

Are you suggesting that secular humans are incapable of morality?

[buckt]

Fair question, which requires me to ask you a question. Or two:

Does morality only exist within religion?

Are you suggesting that secular humans are incapable of morality?

No - my question is WHERE does the whole 'right/wrong' guide come from? I mean - that sense of 'this is wrong' whether murder or stealing etc. - is that sense with us from birth?

[HVAC Instructor]

No - my question is WHERE does the whole 'right/wrong' guide come from? I mean - that sense of 'this is wrong' whether murder or stealing etc. - is that sense with us from birth?

From human beings capable of thought and reason. It really is that simple.

Somewhere along the line, religion was invented, by humans, to control other humans.

All humans are capable of love and various emotions, whether one is religious or A-religious.

Religion is not required to teach right from wrong. Thought and reason is all that is required.

[buckt]

From human beings capable of thought and reason. It really is that simple.

Somewhere along the line, religion was invented, by humans, to control other humans.

All humans are capable of love and various emotions, whether one is religious or A-religious.

Religion is not required to teach right from wrong. Thought and reason is all that is required.

Interesting. So...we really don't need laws to govern right from wrong because we all have 'thought and reason' - therefore we don't really have to respond to any kind of authority because we are our own authority?

[HVAC Instructor]

Interesting. So...we really don't need laws to govern right from wrong because we all have 'thought and reason' - therefore we don't really have to respond to any kind of authority because we are our own authority?

Now now...We are discussing religion, not law, but do you not agree that thought and reason are required to write laws to protect our individual human rights and freedom?

[PennyQuilts]

No - my question is WHERE does the whole 'right/wrong' guide come from? I mean - that sense of 'this is wrong' whether murder or stealing etc. - is that sense with us from birth?

The way my therapist buddies describe it is that we gain our sense of right and wrong and ability to feel empathy by virtue of having an authority/parental figure whose opionion matters to us up to age three. Intially, the desire to do right vs. wrong is both defined by them and imprinted upon us by virtue of our desire to please. In time, we adopt or reject those values as we develop a more mature sense of self. Absent a consistent parental figure at an early age (three and below), the likelihood of developing a conscience is much more limited - that is one theory of where we get sociopaths - humans who lack empathy and/or a conscience. In my guardian ad litem work, we try very hard to avoid disrupting the parent/child relationship up to age three because if they get attachment issues, they frequently don't develop a robust conscience or ability to empathize.

Personally, I suspect that contributes to some of the crime you see in poverty stricken people. More poverty, more disruptions in parent/child relationship, less empathy, more crime. Not the only reason but a contributing one. You see the problem a lot in children adopted from overseas who have not been nurtured. They have actually stopped allowing adoptions from certain countries because so many of the children are so damaged from being neglected in orphanages and you can't go back and undo it, usually. Up to age three is essential.

[buckt]

Now now...We are discussing religion, not law, but do you not agree that thought and reason are required to write laws to protect our individual human rights and freedom?

I'm just wondering - many of our laws (not all of them but the most basic laws ie - murder; theft; etc) are based on something. They are not based on thought/reason as much as they are based on 'right/wrong' which came from???? Seems like I recall hearing that many of our basic laws were orgianally based on the 10 Commandments - or something like that. If so - seems like religion (10 Commandments) were/are helpful to us as a society.

[PennyQuilts]

There are different types of law but you seem to be referring to criminal law. In our country, most of it is statutory but things that have been against the law for a long time generally came up thorough common law, based on our English heritage which is the basis of our legal system. Obviously, England has a long standing christian tradition but most of its basic laws - murder, etc., surely are mimicked in other countries who don't have a christian background. I would be interested in comparing our law with countries who don't have a christian tradition such as China or India. I never studied that and don't really have a frame of reference.

[gmwise]

the basic reasoning and thought is:
I dont want to get murdered so lets make it wrong
I dont want my things stolen so lets make it wrong..


jeeze how hard is that?

[buckt]

the basic reasoning and thought is:
I dont want to get murdered so lets make it wrong
I dont want my things stolen so lets make it wrong..


jeeze how hard is that?

Okay...but WHY is it wrong? By what standard/idea/whatever determines its right or wrong? Please, please don't tell me its a 'feeling'....

[PennyQuilts]

Self preservation, Buckt. You pass a law to outlaw murder because you want the community to protect you from being murdered.

[gmwise]

the basic reasoning and thought is:
I dont want to get murdered so lets make it wrong
I dont want my things stolen so lets make it wrong..


jeeze how hard is that?

[buckt]

the basic reasoning and thought is:
I dont want to get murdered so lets make it wrong
I dont want my things stolen so lets make it wrong..


jeeze how hard is that?

Oh..I get it. So its kind of like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"..NOW....we are getting somewhere....

[PennyQuilts]

Oh..I get it. So its kind of like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"..NOW....we are getting somewhere....

Or "I agree I won't murder anyone if everyone agrees that we'll all band together to kill anyone who does." It is a social contract where you give up the right to kill, steal, rape etc., in exchange for the community agreeing that they will do the same thing and punish anyone who breaks the rules.

[HVAC Instructor]

I'm just wondering - many of our laws (not all of them but the most basic laws ie - murder; theft; etc) are based on something. They are not based on thought/reason as much as they are based on 'right/wrong' which came from???? Seems like I recall hearing that many of our basic laws were orgianally based on the 10 Commandments - or something like that. If so - seems like religion (10 Commandments) were/are helpful to us as a society.

Did humans exist within societies thousands of years prior to the 10 commandments? Of course. Did those societies have laws? Of course.

Is there anything wrong with the 10 C's? Nope. Are the 10 C's original thought or did they evolve from human society? You know the answer.

[buckt]

Did humans exist within societies thousands of years prior to the 10 commandments? Of course. Did those societies have laws? Of course.

Is there anything wrong with the 10 C's? Nope. Are the 10 C's original thought or did they evolve from human society? You know the answer.

I take it that you are saying the some of the basis for our laws have no religious/religion connected to them?

[HVAC Instructor]

I take it that you are saying the some of the basis for our laws have no religious/religion connected to them?

I'm saying that religion is a creation of man. You can take it from there.

[buckt]

I'm saying that religion is a creation of man. You can take it from there.

Help me understand. Are you saying that in America today -if we had no/zero/nada what are calling 'religion' influence then we'd have utopia?

[HVAC Instructor]

Help me understand. Are you saying that in America today -if we had no/zero/nada what are calling 'religion' influence then we'd have utopia?

Nope. We will never have utopia with all these humans around here.