OKC Police & Fire needs

[gen70]

This thread will never die until you people get what you really don't deserve. I want money (don't we all?) Do you think your "special"? Give it up and stop bitching...

[Doug Loudenback]

Oh. thank you patty.

Does your Crystal ball say when? Just curious...How much recovery? When is unemployement going to drop etc....

You've been through this before? Were you around during these times years ago in the 30's?

Doug! you know i figured you'd chime in. Now where are you when other comments are made that are much the same as the one you just commented about? Where is your censorship then? Selected censorship perhaps? I'd ask that if you're going to act as a mediator that you do so fairly if possible.

Here insert this ...I can't believe they would act so "foolish". There Doug it's the same thing. IDIOT equals "foolish acting". What's the difference?

The difference is that ... oh, well, forget it. Just keep on being your own sweet self.

[flintysooner]

What concerns me about this entire thread is the outright disrespect for and anger towards the citizens of Oklahoma City by the police and firefighter posters.

I can understand negotiating tactics, labor dissatisfaction with management, and various other situations where emotions run hot. But this thread to me presents the police and firefighters as seeing the very people they are supposed to protect and serve as the enemy.

Berating people like Doug and Betts and Patrick and a good many other members of the forum is not going to win many converts and it seems to me a trend.

There is a notable exception.

andy157 has been patient, reasonable, and consistently cogent in presenting the position he supports and it is apparent to me that his concern is for the well being of the citizens as well as the police and firefighters.

Others by and large to me lean to hysterical bullying, uncontrolled outbursts of anger, name calling, and personal attacks. The possibility of having to depend upon such individuals for assistance in time of need is not reassuring to me.

On the merits of the question of need by police and firefighters I am more persuaded by andy157 than I am by the bullying. I would like to hear the other side as I have lived long enough to know there undoubtedly is one.

I don't like the organized opposition of MAPS 3 by the unions but I won't hold it against them either if the chance arises later to do something about the staffing and other issue presented by andy157.

[betts]

Slow down Betts, someone might again think that you are being a bit elitest. Blight huh, well I'll be, seems that a lot of under-represented people are down there, people who stand a good chance of being developed out, homeless or not.

First of all, when I talk about blight, I'm talking about physical structure, not people. So, the underepresented people there have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't really see how leaving the area as it is helps the homeless. What precisely does the failure of MAPS 3 do to improve the plight of these people? What precisely is your plan, if MAPS 3 fails? Here's a link to information about what the city is doing about homelessness and the plans for developing the Westown Resource Center at 3rd and Viginia. There's also a city ten year plan if you'd like to read the extensive pdf of it which you can google: RezoneOKC Blog Archive Homelessness and Downtown: Part 1

Public safety often have relationships with that population that you want to look away from. But I'd rather focus on the character of a building, or a landscape, or whatever sort of thing educated people can sit and rabble about. The issue is that it will not be safe, your pristine new development, if not provided for by the city in the form of more cops and firemen, more streetsweepers and groundskeepers, more public works - period.

.

If we don't increase square miles, or we don't increase population, public safety is the same as it is right now. You imply you're already interacting with the homeless. Does it really matter if they're on Walker and 5th or 3rd and Virginia? I don't see necessarily that improving that area will increase the need for public safety supervision of it relative to what you are already doing now. Even so, we're not going to wave a magic wand and have all these facilities completed in 6 months. It's going to take years. Most of us here have said we have no argument with increasing manpower to your departments if it's needed. Your argument is with the city council, the city planner and the mayor, not us. By fighting MAPS instead of them, you're taking your fight to the citizens. It has the potential to impair what has been an excellent relationship between your department and some of your biggest supporters.

Every department was asked to cut 2% with probable 3% the following fiscal year the day Mick came forth with the planned vote for MIII. For police and fire this means personnel. Public Safety could give a rats hairy foot about the character of Union Station, P.S. does however care greatly about the people in and around her.

And, if MAPS fails to pass, how is that going to help your departments? It sounds as if some or all of the use tax would go to you all. If it doesn't pass....no use tax, and certainly no increase in spending that would increase revenues from sales taxes. If we start building more downtown, that means more workers downtown, more jobs, more people moving back into the city, more tourists, more money to spend, and an increase in sales tax revenue. It doesn't help us if all the development goes on in Edmond. Again, some of the biggest union supporters in the past are also most likely to be the people supporting MAPS. I see the potential for a backlash. No data, just an opinion.

[MGE1977]

[QUOTE=flintysooner;272821]What concerns me about this entire thread is the outright disrespect for and anger towards the citizens of Oklahoma City by the police and firefighter posters.

I can understand negotiating tactics, labor dissatisfaction with management, and various other situations where emotions run hot. But this thread to me presents the police and firefighters as seeing the very people they are supposed to protect and serve as the enemy.

Flinty:

At some point in every argument, someone has to become the victim. In this one it is the poor Yes voters, maligned and downtrodden, "why oh why should we be tortured so?" Please remember that P.S. is still working their butts off every minute of every year with no regrets. This has nothing to do with the citizens.

Every last man or women in P.S. in whom the calling to serve is alive (this equates to most of them) is still doggedly working to provide that which the city promises its citizens - satisfactory safety. At every turn, in every negotiations the city has acted in bad faith, what is left? The question keeps coming up, what do we stand to gain from this fight against MIII? The answer is - a voice.

To council we are merely a service that they provide to citizens, and an expensive one. Disasters bring them to us in waves, shaking hands, and pats on the shoulders for heroism and valor and then we fade away and become just another expensive utility. Before you say that I'm playing the same victim card you did, don't. We will continue to take this job, and its shortcomings, because it offers us all a good living for our families and most importantly satisfaction, we are not sufferers or victims - we are advocates.

At any moment, we could be called into your home to solve a problem that is out of your scope of control. Your home, your private place that you pay for and want to keep safe - this is a very serious charge. Should we not be given a voice, because we are bestowed upon the trust of the communities we serve to protect, should we not advocate? How many strangers would you invite into your home to assist your naked grandmother out of the tub when she slips and falls and possibly breaks a hip, or for a full arrest to provide necessary cpr in under 4 minutes, or to put out an inferno in your living room whilst protecting furniture and property from further damage - not to mention life? How many strangers would you trust with your most contorted grief stricken time in your life to protect you and maintain the professionalism and care requisite for said event? And why would you want to thin out that service which is already showing its threads?

MIII will pass, but not now. The money wants it, heck I would love a park to go see U2 in next time they visit, and trails to run on, but this MIII is provacative because it is trying to make positives from too many negatives. Anyone who says that they don't want MAPS is probably not a very friendly person. I think we all want MAPS and one day, when you as a citizen are taken care of by a city that takes is P.S. and Works seriously - it will pass. The defeat of maps will force the city to prioritize, to examine, to assess.

The defeat of this MAPS will generate growth as it should be from the bottom up, not as Mick would like it to be - from the top down (impossible or at very least given the city's past record, highly unlikely.)

[iron76hd]

flintysooner. Remind me when I name called anyone on this site. Not ONCE. Please find me one spot where i name called a person and i'll quickly apologize. I may have had a few choice words for the city counsel and our city leaders for their irresponsible decision to PUSH this MAPS3 to the citizens before addressing other MAJOR issues.

I have responded to some of the comments made by other posters. You like Doug hand pick what you don't think is appropriate. I've never seen you comment on anything "colorful" fellow YES voters have posted. It's not until someone gets their little feelings hurt with the way someone "expressed" their own point of view.

Know this. We are citizens of this city too. Whatever our job, we are citizens of the same community we live in. I'll let you know that any comment i've made is nothing compared to other citizens I've heard "colorfully" express their opinion of MAPS3 or the Mayor etc.. May you never hear them. You'll likely have a breakdown of some sort.

Also, I hold no ill feelings to any YES voter. Although, I'll never understand the vote given the very drastic con's to THIS maps at THIS time. Everyone has their own priorities. I feel certain that POLICE and FIRE are among most families top priorities in any city. The problem is for whatever reason "they can't see the forest for the trees". That's also the fault of our own Mayor, the Chamber, and many others who simply won't be honest with the public about what's really going on and what's really needed. They use their money to run ads that give a "pie in the sky" dream instead of telling the truth. Trust me I blame them more than any citizen. Citizens need to listen to BOTH sides of the issue. Then make an informed vote. Many on this site don't even want to hear the other side.
Don't get down on the opposing side too much. After December 8th, we will all be on the same side and in the same mess. Together. I'll be the i told you so. The city layoffs are coming. They won't be announced until after the vote. We'll lay off people because we are broke, but then we'll start building a Park and bike trails a few months later. Silly I think.
From the info I've seen. Many are starting to see the True "big picture". MAPS3 won't pass and i'm sorry most of the YES voters are in the minority.

[David]

Seriously MGE, PARAGRAPHS. It will vastly help in getting your points across, as more people will bother to read your posts.

This isn't a 'yes' voters picking on the 'no' voters thing. If that's what it was I wouldn't be giving you this advice at all, as following it will do nothing but improve your argument.

[MGE1977]

Resubmitted. If it really causes more readership, then it is worth my while. Thank you for being polite.

[iron76hd]

The defeat of this MAPS will generate growth as it should be from the bottom up, not as Mick would like it to be - from the top down

Exactly the problem with the whole thing. More worried about the TOP instead of the rest of the City. You see the TOP can afford private security etc... The bottom. Not so much. They depend of Police and Fire. Many of our citizens can't afford to watch a movie or dinner in Bricktown. They are struggling and they will be heard on December 8th.

[flintysooner]

At some point in every argument, someone has to become the victim. In this one it is the poor Yes voters, maligned and downtrodden, "why oh why should we be tortured so?"

I disagree with your premise on several levels. Why do you feel the presentation of your case has to be an argument? As nearly as I can tell from my reading of the posts on this forum there is widespread public support for improving Oklahoma City and that includes police, fire, and other services. It seems to me it is the police and firefighters that are argumentative.

Secondly it seems to me that a disagreement does not have to end in an argument and neither require a victim. And while I am there conceptually it seems to me it is the police and firefighters who view themselves as being victims.

Please remember that P.S. is still working their butts off every minute of every year with no regrets. This has nothing to do with the citizens.

I don't understand your reasoning at all. It is clear that posters from the ranks of the police and fire services have no respect at all for the Mayor and City Council members. Both the current and previous Mayors have been called liars and crooks. These are people who were elected to office by the citizens. And I do recall at least one post where someone made a statement about people needing to wake up. So it seems to me it is very much about the citizenry and their collective judgment in the political process.

Every last man or women in P.S. in whom the calling to serve is alive (this equates to most of them) is still doggedly working to provide that which the city promises its citizens - satisfactory safety. At every turn, in every negotiations the city has acted in bad faith, what is left? The question keeps coming up, what do we stand to gain from this fight against MIII? The answer is - a voice.

Respectfully it seems to me you want more than a voice. A voice indicates you want a place in determining the outcome. My reading indicates your side will be unsatisfied with any compromise and you are willing to risk defeating MAPS 3 to gain your total victory.

To council we are merely a service that they provide to citizens, and an expensive one. Disasters bring them to us in waves, shaking hands, and pats on the shoulders for heroism and valor and then we fade away and become just another expensive utility. Before you say that I'm playing the same victim card you did, don't. We will continue to take this job, and its shortcomings, because it offers us all a good living for our families and most importantly satisfaction, we are not sufferers or victims - we are advocates.

I don't see myself as a victim and have no idea what I have written to leave you with that impression. I think police and firefighters are wonderful people and tell them so every chance I get. No one likes to be unappreciated and no one likes to be taken for granted. I sympathize with your plight. I hope your contributions are better appreciated.

At any moment, we could be called into your home to solve a problem that is out of your scope of control. Your home, your private place that you pay for and want to keep safe - this is a very serious charge. Should we not be given a voice, because we are bestowed upon the trust of the communities we serve to protect, should we not advocate? How many strangers would you invite into your home to assist your naked grandmother out of the tub when she slips and falls and possibly breaks a hip, or for a full arrest to provide necessary cpr in under 4 minutes, or to put out an inferno in your living room whilst protecting furniture and property from further damage - not to mention life? How many strangers would you trust with your most contorted grief stricken time in your life to protect you and maintain the professionalism and care requisite for said event? And why would you want to thin out that service which is already showing its threads?

Again I think police and firefighters are wonderful people doing wonderful work. I am not against anyone. Rather I am in favor of MAPS 3 and I am in favor of police and firefighters.

MIII will pass, but not now. The money wants it, heck I would love a park to go see U2 in next time they visit, and trails to run on, but this MIII is provacative because it is trying to make positives from too many negatives. Anyone who says that they don't want MAPS is probably not a very friendly person. I think we all want MAPS and one day, when you as a citizen are taken care of by a city that takes is P.S. and Works seriously - it will pass. The defeat of maps will force the city to prioritize, to examine, to assess.

I support MAPS 3 and intend to vote for it. I see nothing that makes me believe the defeat of MAPS 3 will promote the needs of the police and firefighters.

The defeat of this MAPS will generate growth as it should be from the bottom up, not as Mick would like it to be - from the top down (impossible or at very least given the city's past record, highly unlikely.)

This makes no sense. You're against this proposal apparently because it is supported by the Mayor of Oklahoma City. Amazing argument to me.

I support MAPS 3 and intend to vote yes when the day soon arrives.

I support the police and firefighters. When a tangible measure is put forth in that regard I look forward to considering it.

[betts]

The defeat of this MAPS will generate growth as it should be from the bottom up, not as Mick would like it to be - from the top down.

First of all, precisely what percentage of the "top" can afford private security or chooses to do so??? .00001%? The rest of us all have the same security, regardless of our income level.

And, I'd love to see the economic explanation of how growth is generated from the bottom up? Does that mean that the bottom grows? The bottom is the group we support with our taxes, with welfare, Medicaid, government subsidized housing. Or, are you suggesting that they'll inject more money into the economy that will help it grow if we don't pass MAPS? The bottom doesn't even have to pay the MAPS tax if it passes, as there's a rebate for people under a certain income level as well as the elderly. So, I'm having trouble with this concept.

Again and again and again. Those who are struggling need jobs. Do you honestly think it will help people more if they save $10 a month on MAPS taxes (those who actually have to pay the tax) or if there are more jobs available in the city? Precisely how does it help people if we don't continue improving our city? Does MAPS failing to pass create more jobs? Construction jobs will certainly not increase. A convention center twice the size of the one we have now will actually require more people are employed, and that includes janitors, wait staff, security (private), etc, in addition to the construction jobs created. A streetcar will require ticket takers and sellers, maintenance crews, etc. Growth in a city creates jobs and improves the economy, and I have an incredibly hard time seeing how failing to pass MAPS will create more growth than passing it.

There's no data that says we'll have more money to give to the police and firemen if MAPS doesn't pass, independent of a new vote for a bigger percentage of the permanent tax to go to you all, and there's now enough animosity that's been created that you may have shot yourselves in the foot if asking for the public to vote for more money for your departments.

[flintysooner]

flintysooner. Remind me when I name called anyone on this site. Not ONCE. Please find me one spot where i name called a person and i'll quickly apologize. I may have had a few choice words for the city counsel and our city leaders for their irresponsible decision to PUSH this MAPS3 to the citizens before addressing other MAJOR issues.

Name calling can be implicit. I think I pretty well understand your position regarding the Mayor and Council.

I have responded to some of the comments made by other posters. You like Doug hand pick what you don't think is appropriate. I've never seen you comment on anything "colorful" fellow YES voters have posted. It's not until someone gets their little feelings hurt with the way someone "expressed" their own point of view.

My name should not be placed in the same sentence as Doug's. Usually I just read what others write on this forum. And there are very fine posters here with Doug being one of them.

I would prefer all sides in a discussion to be at least civil to one another.

Know this. We are citizens of this city too. Whatever our job, we are citizens of the same community we live in. I'll let you know that any comment i've made is nothing compared to other citizens I've heard "colorfully" express their opinion of MAPS3 or the Mayor etc.. May you never hear them. You'll likely have a breakdown of some sort.

But you are not here as a citizen so much as you are here as a member of the police or firefighters organizations as I understand it. You are advocating the official position of one or the other of those organizations as I understand it.

I doubt there's much you or anyone could say that I haven't heard. But thanks for being concerned about my well being.

Also, I hold no ill feelings to any YES voter. Although, I'll never understand the vote given the very drastic con's to THIS maps at THIS time. Everyone has their own priorities. I feel certain that POLICE and FIRE are among most families top priorities in any city. The problem is for whatever reason "they can't see the forest for the trees". That's also the fault of our own Mayor, the Chamber, and many others who simply won't be honest with the public about what's really going on and what's really needed. They use their money to run ads that give a "pie in the sky" dream instead of telling the truth. Trust me I blame them more than any citizen. Citizens need to listen to BOTH sides of the issue. Then make an informed vote.

I think you may hold ill feelings towards me regardless of what you say.

I think I've listened to the arguments on both sides. I started out against MAPS 3 but changed to favor it after due consideration.

Many on this site don't even want to hear the other side.

That does seem to be true except you and I probably disagree about which side is disinterested in hearing the other.

Don't get down on the opposing side too much. After December 8th, we will all be on the same side and in the same mess. Together. I'll be the i told you so. The city layoffs are coming. They won't be announced until after the vote. We'll lay off people because we are broke, but then we'll start building a Park and bike trails a few months later. Silly I think.
From the info I've seen. Many are starting to see the True "big picture". MAPS3 won't pass and i'm sorry most of the YES voters are in the minority.

I understand your position and your concern. I just disagree with you about MAPS 3.

[iron76hd]

A streetcar will require ticket takers and sellers, maintenance crews, etc.

A street car is one of the most money losing projects! LOL

Or, are you suggesting that they'll inject more money into the economy that will help it grow if we don't pass MAPS?

Are you suggesting that by NOT passing this maps our economy will not grow? Our city is doomed?

here's now enough animosity that's been created that you may have shot yourselves in the foot if asking for the public to vote for more money for your departments.

The Police Department is not MINE. It's not yours. It's ours. I doubt we've shot ourselves in the foot. My guess and my experience so far is quite the opposite. Citizens truly know the shortages and problems with their Police and Fire Departments. Not that you evidently care because your priorities lie some in "bike trails", but you didn't know any of the information until now. It wasn't the way we wanted citizens to find out what's going on, but i'm glad they know now.

[MGE1977]

[Respectfully it seems to me you want more than a voice. A voice indicates you want a place in determining the outcome. My reading indicates your side will be unsatisfied with any compromise and you are willing to risk defeating MAPS 3 to gain your total victory.]

Why is it that this pro-MIII community is so quick to persue this "P.S. as vindictive" stance? We have tried to maintain amicable relations with the city at every negotiation. We don't win them all you know, and it would be foolish of us to take this measure yearly just to get what we want. As established in my previous post, who is more trustworthy than P.S.?

Is Mick simply because at some point he, a local celebrity, was voted in by someone? Have his ties not been called into question in times past? Perhaps the media is more equitable, surely unbiased, or is OPUBCO tied up in these politics to such a degree that Oklahoma City citizens cannot get fair news? If any MAPS initiative is to come into question, shouldn't it be the MAPS intitiative that fell on the heels of the Bass Pro Debacle? (We the people being the heels in question.)

Compromise has long since passed. The city could have made amends long ago, and could have provided good faith negotiations that would have rendered this debate moot, the chose not to. They chose unwisely.

I do appreciate your comments about P.S. Every P.S. employee knows whose opinions count, and from whom our checks are cut.

As far as liars and crooks, I think that politicians might suffice. You'll say that of course politicians politic, I say why don't we expect more, ask for a change in ballot language at very least.

[betts]

I'm suggesting our economy will grow at a slower rate, and I think that it's extremely unlikely I am wrong about that. Our city is far from perfect. I wouldn't be living here if I didn't get stuck here and had it grow on me. But, having lived in Minneapolis, Chicago, Denver, and spent time in virtually every major city in the US, I know what we don't have and what we need, and how we compare to some of the cities that are considered great. It's not necessarily doomed, but, if other cities continue to improve while we make no attempt to do so, we fall even farther behind. How can that be a good thing?

Again, yes you've made people aware of problems with the police department. But, you've also made people aware that you're opposing something that many of them want, and for what I consider the wrong reasons. You've got a battle going with city government, and you don't care if that battle diffuses out into the general population, or how it affects the city.

My priorities include anything that makes this city a better place in which to live. That doesn't rule out the police or fire departments. I honestly believe both needs can be satisfied. Your position seems to be that only your departments are important, and that improving the city is of no concern.

[flintysooner]

As far as liars and crooks, I think that politicians might suffice.

Surely you do not really believe that all politicians are liars and crooks.

This "us versus them" attitude does not serve anyone very well.

[MGE1977]

Betts

The private security issue was not from my post.

My "bottom - up" comment was speaking toward public works and public safety, things that this city operates on daily yet negotiates around yearly.

Look, the debate is not on economic growth. Mick hopes to drag that into the argument, its a rope to which he can cling so as not to fall deeper into the hole he dug when he got sideways with fundamental departments as they pertain to city living standards.

To whom are these jobs going? Will we deal exclusively with Oklahoma City vendors, OkC contractors? If not then economic impact will be years in the making, which I get, but by that time business should probably be rebounding anyway. I don't think we are going to save the victims of the recession with jobs in construction.

[MGE1977]

Surely you do not really believe that all politicians are liars and crooks.

This "us versus them" attitude does not serve anyone very well.

Politicians are politicians. Just like lawyers are lawyers, firemen are firemen so on and so on....

What gets me is the level of absolute trust that you choose to divulge to a person ,or people, who pandered to get where they got. Why don't you call them out? We are. We're regular guys who are putting in the good fight. Where are you? We are proud to serve, and our popularity rests not with people who earn our favors, but by people who depend on services of which they are ill equipped to provide for themselves. Why does it have to be greed that motivates us? Why not just common good?

[MGE1977]

Betts

Again, I think that you would be hard pressed to find a firefighter/police officer who wouldn't jump at the chance to have a go at those whitecaps at the aquatic center, who wouldn't love to bike or run down miles of trails, who wouldn't attend the sundry offerings that a central park could offer. We will not loose momentum as the city claims, if we the people ask them to take back their offer and add to it the priorities this city deserves.

[betts]

Actually, I suspect most of the contractors will be Oklahoma City contractors. Yes, the growth will be years in the making, but isn't that what we hope for our city.....that we will continue to grow and improve over time? Rome wasn't built in a day, but it takes careful planning and looking ahead to make sure that the building doesn't suddenly stop.

And, what precisely are the MAPS projects if not public works? "Public works are the construction or engineering projects carried out by the state on behalf of the community.", so they seem to apply. Public safety, while important, is not going to grow the economy on it's own.

The debate IS partly regarding economic growth. It's multi-factorial. People who are MAPS proponents want to make this a more enjoyable city in which to live, they want to make it a more attractive city in which to live, they want to make it a city attractive to people looking for a place to relocate. They want people here interviewing for a job to not rule it out based on the above (which happened frequently pre-MAPS, in my experience). We want visitors to come here and enjoy the experience and perhaps want to come back. We're not a city on anyone's bucket list, I suspect, but I would hope that when people come here to visit or interview, they consider it a place they could live or a place they could revisit. I see MAPS as a way to continuing to move forward, to make that a more and more probable thing.

[betts]

Betts

Again, I think that you would be hard pressed to find a firefighter/police officer who wouldn't jump at the chance to have a go at those whitecaps at the aquatic center, who wouldn't love to bike or run down miles of trails, who wouldn't attend the sundry offerings that a central park could offer. We will not loose momentum as the city claims, if we the people ask them to take back their offer and add to it the priorities this city deserves.

But, MGE, this is a temporary tax. In fact, isn't that one of the reasons why your union turned down the offer of using the use tax to add some of the jobs you all wanted, (recognizing not all of them), because it was temporary?

Any tax for firefighters and police, if it is to give you what you want, is going to have to be a permanent tax. By definition, every MAPS proposal is temporary. So, you are going to have to have completely separate legislation to gain "the priorities this city deserves".

If you have problems with the MAPS proposals as they stand, I see that as a separate and completely unrelated issue. But that's not what I'm hearing from you.

[flintysooner]

Politicians are politicians. Just like lawyers are lawyers, firemen are firemen so on and so on....

What gets me is the level of absolute trust that you choose to divulge to a person ,or people, who pandered to get where they got. Why don't you call them out? We are. We're regular guys who are putting in the good fight. Where are you? We are proud to serve, and our popularity rests not with people who earn our favors, but by people who depend on services of which they are ill equipped to provide for themselves. Why does it have to be greed that motivates us? Why not just common good?

I assume you mean invest maybe instead of "divulge" and I guess you are referring to the Mayor, Council members, and other leaders.

I don't invest absolute trust in any of them nor do I invest similar confidence in your side. It appears to me that both sides have something to gain from this battle and I should be duly suspicious of each. Still I am quite ready to hear both sides and if I get a chance to vote on something or make my opinion known about it I will. But the next question I am voting on is about MAPS 3.

As you've phrased the post you are accusing me of being naive; an irregular guy which I think means of greater income than you; someone not putting up a good fight; someone afraid to speak my mind; someone unwilling to serve; and, someone who is greedy and uninterested in the common good.

And all of that because I support MAPS 3 and you don't.

Also the post is accusing the leadership of being panderers.

Not one single portion of this post advances your position one bit and if I were prone to be emotional about such things it would irritate me.

[MGE1977]

Flinty

You are probably right, I was using divulge as a placekeeper and didn't properly edit before I sent.

I stand squarely on my affirmation that of course a politician should be first and foremost suspect because of the title he/she holds.

If you don't, no skin off my back, carry on. Seriously though, you read too much into the rest. I am not labeling you anything, save for obstinate, and well probably naive,
and as to your shape I cannot definitively say.

I might say this regardless of your stance on MIII.

Why should I not call leaders panderers? Theirs is a job to kiss as much of the public's nethers as possible to promote their agendas. Probably not all, but certainly this last couple of batches.

When they get voted out they'll move on to the inner circle where the money is really made, pulling the strings, as if public office were just some Narnian fantasy.

[Easy180]

Exactly the problem with the whole thing. More worried about the TOP instead of the rest of the City. You see the TOP can afford private security etc... The bottom. Not so much. They depend of Police and Fire. Many of our citizens can't afford to watch a movie or dinner in Bricktown. They are struggling and they will be heard on December 8th.

I'm sure many will be fired up about the possibility of increasing their income by a whopping 10 bucks a month

[kevinpate]

17 days and counting, and there's never a good 2 week vacation around when you could use one.