New Testament: Intolerance

[HVAC Instructor]

For a thread that is supposedly about intolerance of the New Testament, it seems to be more about intolerance of anyone professing the Christian faith and offending as many of them as possible.

My point is that because most Christians I know are entirely decent and tolerant people I don't understand why you and others here feel the need and/or duty to constantly berate and belittle believers over the shortcomings of their chosen faith.

Apparently you are a non-believer of some sort or other, but by constantly harping on the negative aspects of religion in general and Christianity in particular, you and the others do a disservice to non-believers everywhere by perpetuating and reinforcing the (generally misguided) stereotype of an elitist, arrogant, disrespectful group who show no more tolerance and respect for opposing views than the even the most hard-core fundamentalists of the religions they mock.

It's not as if Christians have never heard about the darker portions of the scripture. It's not as if you've found something new. Many people I've discussed this sort of thing with accept that those portions are there, but choose to focus on the portions that they believe make them better persons, as in being of a generous and loving spirit; as well as the portions that can provide spiritual comfort in tough times. Is that so bad? In a sense, it's a form of limited atheism, not much different that someone choosing to live their life in a more generous and loving way, not out of a fear of Hell, but rather for a variety of other more-or-less altruistic reasons. IMHO, constantly harping on your favorite controversial portions of scripture does more harm than good overall.

Why is you and other "tolerant" believers cannot simply answer the question which is the topic of this thread?

Why is there such a chip on your and others shoulders that you have to claim persecution every time someone questions the texts of the bible that are clearly intolerant? From your post above:

I don't understand why you and others here feel the need and/or duty to constantly berate and belittle believers over the shortcomings of their chosen faith.

So what you are saying is that because I posted 156 verses straight from your new testament that clearly say what they say, you call that "belittling"? I did not write those verses. Why are you attempting to paint me as a villian instead of defending your own beliefs?

Once again, there are 156 bible verses posted above from the new testament. There are similar verses all through the koran. Why is it that Christians have chosen to ignore these intolerant and sometimes violent passages? Are these passages that Christians choose to ignore fictional? If these passages are fictional and not worthy of following to the letter, then what does that indicate about the remainder of the text?

Are these intolerant, and often violent passages really divinely inspired? If so, then why do Christians only pick and choose verses that they percieve as peaceful to follow? Could the bible simply be only philosophical fictions passed down from generation to generation?

[MadMonk]

Why is you and other "tolerant" believers cannot simply answer the question which is the topic of this thread?

Why is there such a chip on your and others shoulders that you have to claim persecution every time someone questions the texts of the bible that are clearly intolerant?

Allow me to clarify things. First, I could never be mistaken for a biblical scholar so without context, I will concede that those quote appear to be intolerant. Second, I don't consider myself a believer. I have no chip on my shoulder over your seeming disgust with religion in general and Christianity in particular. In fact I understand it very well.

So what you are saying is that because I posted 156 verses straight from your new testament that clearly say what they say, you call that "belittling"? I did not write those verses. Why are you attempting to paint me as a villian instead of defending your own beliefs?

No, you misunderstand. I wasn't simply referring to the quotes you posted, but rather your overall tone and history on the subject.

Once again, there are 156 bible verses posted above from the new testament. There are similar verses all through the koran. Why is it that Christians have chosen to ignore these intolerant and sometimes violent passages? Are these passages that Christians choose to ignore fictional? If these passages are fictional and not worthy of following to the letter, then what does that indicate about the remainder of the text?

Are these intolerant, and often violent passages really divinely inspired? If so, then why do Christians only pick and choose verses that they percieve as peaceful to follow? Could the bible simply be only philosophical fictions passed down from generation to generation?

I'm not sure you read my post or not, but within it I explained my thoughts about how many if not most Christians choose to focus only on the portions of scripture that they feel is the true message of the religion (extreme groups excluded of course - I am talking about the mainstream). I would imagine that this is true for the majority of Muslims as well.

Understand that I'm not arguing your points here. I'm simply pointing out that you seem to relish badgering what my experience tells me is a generally peaceful group solely on their choice of religion, which is the definition of intolerance. It's my opinion that you need to re-examine your actions if you wish to be the trumpeter of tolerance.

[HVAC Instructor]

Allow me to clarify things. First, I could never be mistaken for a biblical scholar so without context, I will concede that those quote appear to be intolerant. Second, I don't consider myself a believer. I have no chip on my shoulder over your seeming disgust with religion in general and Christianity in particular. In fact I understand it very well.

No disgust whatsoever. Simple curiosity.

No, you misunderstand. I wasn't simply referring to the quotes you posted, but rather your overall tone and history on the subject.

Tone? How does one determine "tone" from the written words of a poster? Religion fascinates me and I enjoy discussing it. People get touchy and easily offended when religion is questioned for some reason. My hope is that someday people will discuss it in a reasonable, logical, factual manner.

I'm not sure you read my post or not, but within it I explained my thoughts about how many if not most Christians choose to focus only on the portions of scripture that they feel is the true message of the religion (extreme groups excluded of course - I am talking about the mainstream). I would imagine that this is true for the majority of Muslims as well.

Read every word. The next logical question becomes, if one must cherry pick fragments of a religion to follow because to follow the remainder of the practices might result in prosecution within civilized societies criminal justice system, and violates the civil rights of others if it is practiced, is that religion essentially something that should be considered morally and fundamentally flawed and considered as philosophical fiction like mythology?

Understand that I'm not arguing your points here. I'm simply pointing out that you seem to relish badgering what my experience tells me is a generally peaceful group solely on their choice of religion, which is the definition of intolerance. It's my opinion that you need to re-examine your actions if you wish to be the trumpeter of tolerance.

So again you return to attempting to accuse the questioner of "badgering" for no other reason than asking a question? You see, that is the primary problem with all religions is that attitude of "how DARE you question our faith!" Some Muslims would have no problem whatsoever executing someone like me for daring to question its tennants. This attitude that anyone who questions Christianity is somehow persecuting Christians or "badgering" them, stems from the same attitude as Islam; it's just toned down due to the evolving common sense of modern Christians. Why can't you guys get over that attitude and just talk about it wothout accusing people of some imagined form of religious persecution?

[USG '60]

No disgust whatsoever. Simple curiosity.




Tone? How does one determine "tone" from the written words of a poster? Religion fascinates me and I enjoy discussing it. People get touchy and easily offended when religion is questioned for some reason. My hope is that someday people will discuss it in a reasonable, logical, factual manner.



Read every word. The next logical question becomes, if one must cherry pick fragments of a religion to follow because to follow the remainder of the practices might result in prosecution within civilized societies criminal justice system, and violates the civil rights of others if it is practiced, is that religion essentially something that should be considered morally and fundamentally flawed and considered as philosophical fiction like mythology?



So again you return to attempting to accuse the questioner of "badgering" for no other reason than asking a question? You see, that is the primary problem with all religions is that attitude of "how DARE you question our faith!" Some Muslims would have no problem whatsoever executing someone like me for daring to question its tennants. This attitude that anyone who questions Christianity is somehow persecuting Christians or "badgering" them, stems from the same attitude as Islam; it's just toned down due to the evolving common sense of modern Christians. Why can't you guys get over that attitude and just talk about it wothout accusing people of some imagined form of religious persecution?

You know good and well that religion is based more on emotions than intellect and yet you expect people to talk to you about it intellecually. Isn't that kind of farting in the wind. I think you just want to have "fun" at other peoples expense. I am an atheist/agnostic and find no fun in talking about others' religious beliefs. Granted, it was fun for a few decades but, alas, it is now boring. Someday it will be boring to you, too. You should at least study your motivations a bit closer.

[circled9]

If you are a true Christian, you will follow the example and teachings of Jesus. Jesus taught love, forgiveness, humbleness, doing into others as you would have them do to you and turning the other cheek.

Too many who call themselves Christians need to read what Jesus said and taught.

By the way, Jesus would probably be called a liberal socialist if he were with us today. I doubt very seriously if he would be called a capitalist and I am sure he would not buy into the theory that we gotta fight them there so we dont have to fight them here.

[HVAC Instructor]

You know good and well that religion is based more on emotions than intellect and yet you expect people to talk to you about it intellecually. Isn't that kind of farting in the wind. I think you just want to have "fun" at other peoples expense. I am an atheist/agnostic and find no fun in talking about others' religious beliefs. Granted, it was fun for a few decades but, alas, it is now boring. Someday it will be boring to you, too. You should at least study your motivations a bit closer.

Come now, USG'60...Surely you do not mean to say that people who are Christians are not capable of logical and rational thought are you? That may have been the place from which YOU approached YOUR discussions, but it is not mine. I know better because I have had some excellent, well thought out, and CIVIL discussions with many Christians and it has been quite enjoyable. Your motivations were apparently quite different from mine.

I agree that religion is primarily emotion based, but it can and is discussed by many of its practicers in an unemotional manner. It is a lot more challenging to get into that unemotional place on an internet forum, but it can be done as long as folks are willing to discuss the issue and not auomatically assume that questioning = attacking.

[gmwise]

If a belief/religion or political belief cant stand critical/exhaustive examination its not likely to survive in the real world.

[PennyQuilts]

If that is the test, there are plenty of religions that are doing swell.

[MadMonk]

No disgust whatsoever. Simple curiosity.

That's just the impression that I get. Of course you know your feelings better than anyone so I'll chalk it up to a simple internet forum misunderstanding then.

Tone? How does one determine "tone" from the written words of a poster?

It's a well-known concept. The lack of visual cues in a conversation can lead to misunderstanding of the intentions of the written word.
Tone And Communication - Essays - D111

Religion fascinates me and I enjoy discussing it. People get touchy and easily offended when religion is questioned for some reason. My hope is that someday people will discuss it in a reasonable, logical, factual manner.

You are dealing with deeply held core-value beliefs so it's understandable that people easily take offense, especially in online communications where meanings are sometimes unclear.

Read every word. The next logical question becomes, if one must cherry pick fragments of a religion to follow because to follow the remainder of the practices might result in prosecution within civilized societies criminal justice system, and violates the civil rights of others if it is practiced, is that religion essentially something that should be considered morally and fundamentally flawed and considered as philosophical fiction like mythology?

Not necessarily. The portions being cherry-picked and practiced by the mainstream followers have evolved along along with society and mirror its accepted behavior. Of course there will always be the extreme fundamentalists, etc. that give the overall religion a bad name, but it's a mistake to focus only on the negative aspects without at least acknowledging the very large amount of good that organized religion offers.

So again you return to attempting to accuse the questioner of "badgering" for no other reason than asking a question? You see, that is the primary problem with all religions is that attitude of "how DARE you question our faith!" Some Muslims would have no problem whatsoever executing someone like me for daring to question its tennants. This attitude that anyone who questions Christianity is somehow persecuting Christians or "badgering" them, stems from the same attitude as Islam; it's just toned down due to the evolving common sense of modern Christians. Why can't you guys get over that attitude and just talk about it wothout accusing people of some imagined form of religious persecution?

Again, not being associated with Christianity I really have no dog (God) in the fight and your questioning causes me to feel no indignation any more than would you questioning Islam. However, I do feel that your manner of questioning is more one of seeking an argument rather than one of seeking understanding. If that is not your intention, then again I'll chalk it up to misunderstanding and apologize. If nothing else, perhaps my pointing it out will lead to better understanding between you and those you seek to discuss these matters with.

[Prunepicker]

If you are a true Christian, you will follow the example and teachings of
Jesus. Jesus taught love, forgiveness, humbleness, doing into others as you
would have them do to you and turning the other cheek.

Too many who call themselves Christians need to read what Jesus said and
taught.

This is correct. I couldn't agree more.

By the way, Jesus would probably be called a liberal socialist if he were
with us today. I doubt very seriously if he would be called a capitalist and I
am sure he would not buy into the theory that we gotta fight them there
so we dont have to fight them here.

Where do you come up with this? A liberal socialist? If a man doesn't work
he doesn't eat. Pay them what they agreed to be paid. Don't commit
adultery or fornication and not to mention many, many moral teachings that
liberals would have a total fit over - we know that because they have a big
problem with them now. Also, he wouldn't change his teachings because
society changed. That's not very liberal or socialist.

Jesus didn't talk a lot about military action but did say that a ruler should
count the cost before going to battle. No mention, ever, about not going to
war if necessary. He certainly wasn't an isolationist, in that He preached in
many countries and commanded His word be taught all over the world. He
also fought with the pharisees and scribes where He was and He even
called them white washed sepulchers and vipers. Of course He knew their
hearts.

Why do you keep trying to call Jesus something he isn't? I suggest that
you do as you said in the first part of the post and start reading what
Jesus said.

[gmwise]

Prune
You may want to invest in a few Bible tools.
A biblical atlas, a bible dictionary, a strongs accordance.

[PennyQuilts]

Jesus has been painted by many as a peacenik socialist. He wasn't. That is just projecting an ideology. The bible doesn't support it, either. He was a practicing jew, typical for the times. If you want a model for how he thought and behaved, there you go. Let's not make stuff up.

[Prunepicker]

Prune
You may want to invest in a few Bible tools.
A biblical atlas, a bible dictionary, a strongs accordance.

Thanks for the information and I do have all of those in various genre. The
Strong's Concordance is a good Bible tool. Also my library has lexicons,
parsing guides and some books by Torrey, Trueblood, Spurgeon and the like.
I also studied Greek for a few years. That was very useful.

I don't care for the pop culture Christian books.

[Prunepicker]

Jesus also paid his taxes!
Matthew 17:24-27

[Bunty]

And that's not enough for you to consider Jesus a liberal?

[PennyQuilts]

And that's not enough for you to consider Jesus a liberal?

Liberals pay their taxes???? Not if you go by this particular WH cabinet choices.

[DaveSkater]

Liberals pay their taxes???? Not if you go by this particular WH cabinet choices.

LOL, but then again, Turbo Tax wasn't invented back then.