New OCU Law School (dead)

[bombermwc]

First off in reference to the parking....yes they'll have to pay for a parking tag like every other student. Last time I bought one at OCU, they were about a 1/4 of what an OU commuter pays though. Duh, it's college, you still have to pay for a tag...but $35 a YEAR for a tag is far better than $7 a day in a garage/lot. FYI - Law students can buy commuter tags and park in the commuter lots...you don't have to give any proof for a commuter tag like you do for resident tags.

As for the security issue...I gurantee the school would handle it. OCU is already in the middle of cracktown and has a better security profile than OU or UCO by far. There are more security officers per student than at any school in the state....and they do their job very well. Are they going to be able to 100% prevent things from happening? No. But the school is also going to take into account where this building is. I 'm sure they'll put up decorative fencing like what's around Cokesbury on campus (without the missing slats). and I'm absolutely sure a security detail (1 or 2 officers) would be assigned to the site. How else are they going to be able to write tickets? LOL. But seriously, they're going to make sure that their students are safe at all hours. They'll increase lighting in the area, security cameras, etc. I have complete faith that if OCU pursues the project, that they will do it right.

I still think being on campus is a better idea, and I've never seen any arguement that makes me feel otherwise...and probably won't turn not matter what anyone says simply because of how OCU operates (we're not OU and the HSC). HOWEVER, if OCU is the one that develops this land, I have all faith that it will be done at the highest possible level of detail. If anyone doubts it, go check out the most recent building construction on campus...they know how to do it right. Hell, the Bass Center is the envy of any music school in the country. It kicks Catlett's tail at OU by a mile!

[abcdef123456]

wanted to comment on the note from the dean...

I want to assure the law school community that neither the law school leadership nor President McDaniel will recommend an agreement that does not meet the following objectives:

Significantly larger and superior facilities for the law school

It's definately a large facility. can't argue with that!

Attractive and functional design appropriate for a school of law in the 21st Century

The building is 93ish years old. That seems to contradict this statement. It will take millions to rennovate. Perhaps millions more than what the Oklahoman reported.

Financial arrangements that will not impose undue burdens on law students or the law school's operating budget

Who exactly is going to pay then? The building is in shambles. The whole thing will have to be gutted to remove years of grease and aspestos. The whole south end of the lot will have to be demolished as its nearly derelect and close to colapse.

This isn't the resposibility of tax payers. The school or the family _should_ pay for the rennovation, its going to be hugely expensive. I'd vote for the latter as they haven't upkept the building for decades! Protecting the family legacy indeed!

State-of-the-art security arrangements

Yep, going to need it too. The area is a huge gathering point for homeless that the very nearby shelters can't or won't take in. On the weekend, carity folk set up buffet lines in the parking lot, and the homeless therefore flock to them.

Adequate and affordable parking

That's a laughable statement from any college administrator. Students always take a soaking bath on parking fees! Adequate parking certainly isn't and issue on the property and with the south end supposedly getting leveled parking should be more than enough.

----

It really is sad to see the building languish over the years however, that's no ones fault but "the family's." This burden should not be hoised upon tax payers to shoulder "the family's" decades of neglect!

It would be best if the school or the family would do the honorable thing and came forward with the funds to restore the old Ford model-T plant.

[mugofbeer]

You act as though you are somehow going to be taxed to pay for this? Its a private arrangement between a private university and a private individual (or family). If it works out, it would be a great shot in the arm for the west part of downtown. Why don't you let them work it out and wish them the best of luck instead of being so outraged and negative?

[Midtowner]

There will be historical preservation credits involved, fwiw...so some taxpayer involvement. And maybe a stop on the circulator, but there'll be lots of private places with stops. Amazingly, all of those stops will be where people will actually want to be getting on and off the train.

[mugofbeer]

There will be historical preservation credits involved, fwiw...so some taxpayer involvement. And maybe a stop on the circulator, but there'll be lots of private places with stops. Amazingly, all of those stops will be where people will actually want to be getting on and off the train.

Those credits would be involved with anything put in that building - whether loft apartments or retail so the issue that its OCU Law School doesn't change things. As far as stops on the circulator, isn't stopping where people want to get on and off the point of the stops or am I missing your point?

[onthestrip]

People, if you think it's such a bad idea and in a bad area then don't go down there. This is mainly between ocu, it's current and future students and property owners. Nobody is going to be taxed, this is a private university and they've already said they will start a fund raising campaign for it. And universities employ security officers for their students safety, dont think it'll be any different.
Outside of the former law students that have posted already, I'm not sure why everyone else has such a negative opinion on this.

[Midtowner]

People, if you think it's such a bad idea and in a bad area then don't go down there. This is mainly between ocu, it's current and future students and property owners. Nobody is going to be taxed, this is a private university and they've already said they will start a fund raising campaign for it. And universities employ security officers for their students safety, dont think it'll be any different.
Outside of the former law students that have posted already, I'm not sure why everyone else has such a negative opinion on this.

(former law student here, if you haven't guessed) -- but I absolutely love this idea for selfish reasons. First, if I ever need cheap labor, there'll be a near unlimited supply of high quality legal interns nearby who'll work for peanuts. Secondly, as an alumnus of OCU Law, I have lifetime library privileges.... so having the library more conveniently located would be a very good thing if I ever actually needed a book to do research in (I pretty much exclusively use Westlaw and some form books I've purchased for when I'm doing things like setting up LLCs).

As for mug, maybe I wasn't being articulate, but I think we're on the same wavelength. People bitching about a trolley stop which happens to stop in front of a privately owned enterprise are, IMHO, missing the point of public transportation. What do they expect? That the circulator will exclusively stop in front of publicly owned facilities?

[bombermwc]

Great point Midtowner on the trolly stop. In case we haven't noticed...uh businesses make up the majority of stops in any town...not public spaces. If we only stopped at public spaces, then we'd see a train between the arenas and the gardens....yay a fairgrounds ride. So of course we'll see stops at businesses....and you'd better hope to hell that it DOES stop at businesses. Otherwise you're not moving people anywhere.

As for the public, like mug said, it's a private business venture. OCU is a private school buying up private property for private use. Did you see any public anything in there? Oh yeah, the trolly stop.....see above comments.

[andy157]

Great point Midtowner on the trolly stop. In case we haven't noticed...uh businesses make up the majority of stops in any town...not public spaces. If we only stopped at public spaces, then we'd see a train between the arenas and the gardens....yay a fairgrounds ride. So of course we'll see stops at businesses....and you'd better hope to hell that it DOES stop at businesses. Otherwise you're not moving people anywhere.

As for the public, like mug said, it's a private business venture. OCU is a private school buying up private property for private use. Did you see any public anything in there? Oh yeah, the trolly stop.....see above comments.

I didn't sound as though OCU is actually going to buy this property. It sounded to me as though the Jone's family would retain ownership. It sounded like a simple 3 step process. The family retains ownership of the building, the school pays rent on the building, and the OCU Alums pay to remodel and repair the building. IF MAPS 3 passes.

I think it should happen even if MAPS 3 fails. Nothing would be different except that the Alums would have to pony up and pay the cost of building a private streetcar system. I did like the comment where Mr. Jones said this project would be the front door to Downtown. That could be an accurate description, I guess. If you were entering Downtown from the West.

[hoya]

First off in reference to the parking....yes they'll have to pay for a parking tag like every other student. Last time I bought one at OCU, they were about a 1/4 of what an OU commuter pays though. Duh, it's college, you still have to pay for a tag...but $35 a YEAR for a tag is far better than $7 a day in a garage/lot. FYI - Law students can buy commuter tags and park in the commuter lots...you don't have to give any proof for a commuter tag like you do for resident tags.

$35 a year? Is that it? I paid $1000 a semester my third year for parking.

[PennyQuilts]

$35 a year? Is that it? i paid $1000 a semester my third year for parking.

Dang!!!!!

[Urban Pioneer]

Do me a favor and refer to the future as "streetcar" instead of trolley. It drives me a bit nuts as it canotes the "rubber tired troleys" we have now. Thanks.

[Mr Big]

OCU law does need to go downtown, but not at this location. This location has glaring flaws. This biggest its not really in the downtown legal community, its on the outskirts. And once you're there...there's no difference than being on 23rd. Exposure to the Courthouse and to the law firms who are intentionally, strategically located near the Courthouse is the best reason for OCU to move. If you aren't going to take advantage of that, there's no point.

I know, I know...walking distance...the trolley...if you have the time for that walk or to wait for the trolley...23rd beats it. That walk is NOT convenient, the trolley is on time table that not yours. They are both a tremendous waste of time.

View this in comparison to the First National idea. That does achieve these ideas.

IF they do it, parking availability won't be an issue. They'll get the space, they'll charge for it...done deal. But safety will be. OCU's PD "may" be better than OU & UCO's...it still sucks. Car's being broke in on the outlying parking lots was a regular problem 2002-2005, I seriously doubt its been fixed. The Fred Jones area is a higher crime area and its higher desperation crime area. This is true with the OCPD using the gas station across the street from Fred Jones as fuel source for the downtown cops, a handful of OCU cops aren't going to change anything.

The law school will not provide some great financial boon to an area either. Law students do not gather in great masses, except for social. And in those case, they go to where ever the hot spots are; more specifically, spots that the city says "this place is great", not some place made just for them (see their current student deli). Law students like lawyers are competitive. Are there more large firms? Or more single to three person firms? We gather the few people we trust and we work with them only. When its time to party, we want our lawyer friends...but when its time to work, we don't play well with others. To suggest that business are going to survive because law students are coming there, is signaling you don't know anything about law students.

Don't compare it to OUHSC either. That place is where doctors go to practice medicine i.e. make money. NO lawyer goes back to law school to make money. Occasionally, and I mean very rarely, a lawyer may need the law library but with technology where it is, you have a better chance of seeing a gull wing Mercedes on you way to work. When you can find away to get the Courthouse in the law school, and then set an ER for people to show up with legal problems....then you'll have lawyers there, and you'll have an adequate comparison to OUHSC.

IF OCU wants to go downtown, they need to make a serious commitment to getting their kids in front of judges before, between and after classes, with the DA, with the PD, and with the practices who are circling the Courthouse. Anything less, than that, might as well be move across campus.

A suggestion....and please excuse my ignorance of the name of the building I've walking past for 20 years...on the northside of the County Courthouse is parking garage, immediately east of it is a building. IF OCU wants to be downtown, they buy that building tear it down and re-build. Then they boast the best exposure to the biggest Federal and County Courthouse of any law school in the state.

Sadly enough....it would have been more appropriate to put OCU's School of Business in Fred Jones' building.

[HOT ROD]

Agree with that...this is GREAT for the city! And, call it whatever you want, but I would have to imagine that for OCU, moving into a state of the art facility (DOWNTOWN) does nothing but good things for rankings, accreditation ratings, ability to draw great faculty, etc.

Ah-hem bomber. ... does this help clear things up for you?

[PennyQuilts]

I thought many people went to OCU because they couldn't get in anywhere else or they couldn't relocate due to family obligations. I'm a terrible alum to say that! And I know they did well on the bar, recently. Now that its alums are doing well and able to help with the infrastructure, things are getting better but the fact that it is a state of the art facility is going to make the difference to some but not others. I do like the idea of easy access to the courthouse but to be honest, it never really bothered me all that much as a student. It wasn't like it was very far.

[bombermwc]

Hot-Rod, but it's not as though they are in danger of losing accredidation. You konw all they have to do to say they're in the same building is build a hallway between Gold Star and Sarkey's...all 100 feet of it. For that matter, they have room in the area behind Sarkeys to add on to it to create a whole new library as well as more vertical classroom space. As you said, ah-hem, there's no point. Moving to that location downtown doesn't serve any more convenient of a purpose than being on campus.

I'll agree with some points in Mr. Big's post, but not all. My time at OCU from 00-05 seems to be very different. Those "outlying" parking lots changed during that time. What was outlying became the middle of campus...ie Kramer. The most outlying lot is at Meinders and it's also the best lit. The surrounding community know not to go on campus....enough folks have been tackled that they get the point. Like I said before, they might have a few instances of something here and there, but you always have some...you never get rid of it 100%. I never once felt unsafe walking around campus at midnight from one end to the other. I used to have to go from late night rehearsals at Petree over to the lot north of Freede or Loefler. Most of the time I didn't even see a person out there. And with all the mercede's and bmw's people have on campus, there are plenty targets out there.

First National would make more sense, although it would be more difficult to get in and out of and rent would be more expensive. Personally, I dislike the idea of the school not owning the property as well. If you aren't right in the mix of it all within a few blocks of where the action is....it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to move off campus. Just to say you're downtown doesn't do crap for you. On campus, you can get more bang for your buck in constructing a new building, helping to expand the campus in the masterplan, and you still get to be part of the school community. Even if you never interact with it, it's much more enjoyable to walk through campus than downtown.

[HOT ROD]

I think downtown also adds to the 'vibe' if you will, to promoting a cohesive downtown law community. Come to think of it, law students really don't interact as much as or with students in other programs on a typical university campus - so they might as well be down where the 'action is' for their profession.

The same could also be said for the college of business, but that would only bode for the graduate students (myself being an alumn), as the undergrads of b-school IS the life of the campus. As an MBA, I would have loved to be downtown to network with the movers and shakers on a regular basis. But it would be horrible for an undergrad because your sights are a bit different at that stage (and therefore being on campus is the best for them).

As for First National, Im not sure if moving the law school there makes any sense either. Why is it that people want everything to move into First National. Why not just update it and have it continue to be OKC's premier vintage office skyscraper? It seems as if anything needs to come downtown, people on here want it to go into FNC when there are other parts of downtown much more in need of revitalizing; such as west downtown.

Let's keep the CBD, the CBD - you know, for businesses and business community. We can have our education resources (and to some degree Entertainment) on the "outskirts" districts of the CBD.

As was said, the courthouse is not that far from Fred Jones and certainly having law students on the Streetcars only adds to the vibe that is the new downtown OKC (which means when combined with OBU's campus and possibly the new OCU and the housing, we will have great use of the Streetcar to help justify expansion into the nearby inner city areas to downtown (can way bet it will get extended up to OCU/Asia District) as well as other modes of transit we desire to see (commuter rail from the suburbs and possibly inner city light rail once the city increases density).

I see this as a win-win-win situation, kudos to OCU for taking the lead in promoting an established law community in Oklahoma City and using downtown as a marketing/networking tool for their law students. I thought I remember hearing that OCU was the top law school in the state - this move would only ensure that status for the future (unless OU also decides to build a law campus downtown - which would be very cool actually).

[bombermwc]

OBU's "campus" is a building outside of downtown almost at the highway. It's a small couple floors building that does basically nothing. No comparison here whatsoever. Not to mention it established them a presence in OKC....how many miles away from their main campus....sure isn't 3.

[Doug Loudenback]

You act as though you are somehow going to be taxed to pay for this? Its a private arrangement between a private university and a private individual (or family). If it works out, it would be a great shot in the arm for the west part of downtown. Why don't you let them work it out and wish them the best of luck instead of being so outraged and negative?

Possibly, since abcdef123456's (great name, by the way) post is his #1 post, he's merely trolling to see what his bait might catch. Since MAPS 3 was announced, unless I'm badly mistaken, there has been an influx of such critters around these parts. Actually, that should be seen as a feather in OkcTalk's cap ... they are coming here because there's an audience, an audience they could not find anywhere else. Here, they have an opportunity to say something and then wait for more regular participants to engage. Several of you have, as well as me by this post, and the alpha-numeric but otherwise unknown person must be feeling just fine. Not a problem. Enjoy.

[mugofbeer]

Hah! I don't think I even noticed. He's probably not made another post since.

[MGE1977]

Basing the merits of one's posts on the frequency with which one posts them is a two edged sword. Sometimes you can dilute the potency of your words, when you spray them about, Doug.

Men show their characters in nothing more clearly than in what they think laughable.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
German dramatist, novelist, poet, & scientist (1749 - 1832)

If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.
Abraham Lincoln

Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin

[tehvipir]

NO those were sarcastic remarks. but some of them i do feel are true. some may seem good and act nice but a lot are bad news. also our cops do NOT patrol a 70 acres park. how are you going ot have them do that? use the mounted pd or bike team or what? they cant patrol the park. we already have a park in the same general area that they are wanting the new park. its called wheeler park. it seems nice and big with a skate park and other stuff. why is that not good enough? although you may see the homeless as nice people as you feed them meals but what about when they steal to get mouthwash just so they can get drunk, or use tha ambulance service as a taxi? i would NOT let me wife nor kids anywhere down there especially at night.

[Larry OKC]

... we already have a park in the same general area that they are wanting the new park. its called wheeler park. it seems nice and big with a skate park and other stuff. why is that not good enough?...

For more info, you can download the PDF presentation from the City's website (OKC.gov...sorry, but couldn't find an actual link directly). I googled ("Oklahoma City" Wheeler Park "Core to Shore") and selected the 2nd result (Presentation - City of Oklahoma City | News)

From what I can tell of the Core to Shore plans, the existing Wheeler Park is going to be unconnected to the string of parks extending from the Boulevard south to the River. Looks like 5 blocks separating it from the Central Park area (north to south) & 3 blocks (east to west), from the narrower Promenade Park that continues on to the River). The plans show the area immediately surrounding Wheeler Park is primarily residential. Making Wheeler Park a good neighborhood park along with other planned Public amenities (see below)

Phase 2 (2012-2020)
Wheeler Park School; Wheeler Park Library; Little Flower Plaza; West Park Neighborhood Green; Wheeler Park Neighborhood Green. The following Private development is planned: North Shore Mews; River Towers; West Park Phase II.

Phase 3 (2018 and beyond)
Wheeler Park Phase II (whatever that entails).

While the Central Park in MAPS 3 is part of the overall Core to Shore plan, it should not be confused with C2S. The Mayor has described C2S as being a 30 year project costing $3 billion (mixture of public/private).

[jbrown84]

Devon and the Oklahoma Tower both bought exclusive rights (or the whole garage) in the two closest parking facilities to the apartments.

I lived there for a year and had no problem parking on the street. I can see though how some wouldn't want to lease there without garage parking.

[Edge]

OCU wants to move the new Wimberly School of Religion to Sarkeys Law Center.