MAPS for prisoners?

[DaveSkater]

So RGDC, a national design firm based out of Miami, FL became CPI, a small Oklahoma based road and bridge building company? Really?

On edit: Manhattan Construction was the General Contractor for the jail. HTB and RGDC were the architect/engineering firms.

Truth. My company bid on the electrical portion of that job. Thank God we were not successful in our bid with one of Manhattan's competitors.

CPI was definately not a player. LOL

[hoya]

Just how you want them to act?

I'm against drug abuse just as much as most people are. I want people to live happy, healthy, productive lives. However, if people want to eat big macs everyday, smoke a pack a day, go bungee jumping, cliff diving, fire walking or do drugs... that's their business and the government should certainly not care.

Don't get me wrong, people should care when someone is doing something bad for themselves. And people DO care. That's why family, friends, churches, organizations, non-profits and the like are availalbe - to try to help people. But government mandated don't-do-this-to-yourself-because-I-say-so? Nah.

I think some of you think that if a certain government agency didn't exist, then those people would all be screwed. Realistically, more often than not, taxpayers are being screwed and a non-profit, church, family or friends would do a much better job.

Then go out and participate in the political process. Vote. Make your voice heard. Change the law. "Freedom" is primarily political freedom (along with your other protected rights). You can exercise that freedom and get laws changed. Or maybe you can't. Maybe most people disagree with you and feel that drugs should be illegal. What freedom isn't is the ability to just go out and ignore the law because you don't like it.

But that's all a conversation I don't want to get into.

[Drake]

Well, you guys successfully knocked this thread off track.

I remember walking in that jail a few years ago to visit a couple friends who work there. DISGUSTING. I had been in the old jail across the street (think Shawshank or The Green Mile) but it was better for its purpose than that new jail.

They are in an office that has constant water leaks thru the ceiling. Its take about 10 minutes to see the piss poor construction.

[Luke]

Then go out and participate in the political process. Vote. Make your voice heard. Change the law. "Freedom" is primarily political freedom (along with your other protected rights). You can exercise that freedom and get laws changed. Or maybe you can't. Maybe most people disagree with you and feel that drugs should be illegal. What freedom isn't is the ability to just go out and ignore the law because you don't like it.

But that's all a conversation I don't want to get into.

Ah, but I do.

Of course, I vote, that's a given.

I understand that I must work within the shackles of our current system. However, I think we aren't so shackled we can't change something.

I've contact all my representatives regularly (even in the past week!). I spoke with one on the phone for about 30 minutes the other day regarding health insurance. It was great.

I've knocked doors for campaigns.

I've donated to freedom fighting, liberty loving candidates.

I've considered running for something... merely entertaining that idea.

I post here and try to help people see that we may not need as much government as we think.

I actually do what I can.

[Midtowner]

The bottom line here isn't really whether this is something we ought to spring for. The only question here is how much it'll cost. $400MM might really be a bargain compared with what the feds will do if they take over the facility. Before making up my mind, I'd want to see what similar projects have cost the taxpayers elsewhere. If this can be constructed during a down economy where labor and materials are relatively cheap, we could get a real bargain.

There really is no "if" we get a new jail, only a "when." It'll need to go somewhere near downtown in order to be near the courthouse unless we also want to build a new courthouse annex to the new jail. That'd render a lot of expensive holding facilities at the current courthouse (on the top floors) useless.

I don't know what it costs to build a downtown jail. Maybe $400MM is reasonable. You can believe if the feds take over it'll probably run a lot more than that. The current facility is by all accounts unable to be fixed. Sometimes it's best to just cut your losses and move on. I don't think we know all of the facts here, so passing judgment as to this estimate, is IMHO, premature.

[hoya]

The floors on top of the courthouse need renovations, too. Even simply bringing people over for court means those floors exceed their capacity as determined by the fire marshall.

[kevinpate]

I'm starting to like the convert crossroads suggestion.
detainees get the old foley's
judges get the old JCP
clerks get the old wards
DA and P-defenders each get floor in old Dillard's
Fill the small store fronts with probation, drug testing, an office supply place, foodie halls, etc.

[urbanity]

With MAPS 3 ramping up and a city vote looming, will Oklahoma County taxpayers say yea or nay to a costly jail?

New report slaps needed county jail overhaul with huge price tag | OKG Scene.com

[warreng88]

Quote for new Oklahoma county jail decreases

County officials say they hope to take prices for the construction down to $200 million; new location cuts cost
BY JOHN ESTUS
Published: November 19, 2009

Oklahoma County commissioners got a cheaper quote Wednesday for a new jail and were told building it is the best way to fix the county’s dilemma.

The recommendation means the county will likely ask voters to approve funding for a new jail next spring, District 3 Commissioner Ray Vaughn said.

It would cost about $310 million to build a new jail within 10 miles of downtown, according to an estimate presented to commissioners Wednesday by local architecture firm Frankfurt Short Bruza.

"There’s more than just the building and the cost. Now we’ve got to talk about, of course, the funding methods,” Vaughn said. "There’s a lot of issues left to be decided.”

A funding method, final cost and location for a new jail are undetermined.

For more than a year, commissioners and an advisory committee have been researching whether it is best to build a new jail or fix the existing jail, which has seen numerous problems since opening in 1991.

The problems culminated last year when the U.S. Justice Department issued a report decrying the jail as a place where inmates’ constitutional rights are routinely violated by uncontrolled violence, poor medical care and chronic overcrowding.

County officials have since reached an agreement with the Justice Department to avoid serious and costly sanctions for the problems detailed in the report. The agreement is contingent on fixing problems at the existing jail or building a new one.

Architects managed to shave $81 million off the estimated cost for a new jail delivered to commissioners this summer, but it remains far above what county officials had anticipated.

Vaughn said officials will continue to look for ways to reduce the cost of the construction project in an effort to get it "in the $200 million range.”

The nation’s poor economy might help the county cut costs, Vaughn said. Bids for county capital projects have been coming in much cheaper than normal recently.

"The contractors are hungry and they need work,” Vaughn said.

The proposal that commissioners received this summer estimated the cost for a new jail at $391 million and a renovated jail at $436 million. The cheaper costs presented Wednesday were achieved mostly by reducing capacity by 500 beds to about 2,800, Vaughn said.

Renovating the existing jail was priced at $279 million in the revised estimate, but the estimate also said building a new jail outside downtown would save $24 million in annual operating costs in the next decade over renovating the existing building.

For that reason, commissioners were told the most cost-efficient long term solution is building a new jail.

NewsOK

[kevinpate]

making it smaller is an interesting choice. Weren't they using excess bad space to hold inmates for others at a fee, helping with operational costs until the beds were needed due to local growth.

Curious also how new and not downtown saves 234M in operational costs over renovating downtown? Seems a Q a reporter might have asked. Maybe ran out of alloted space and there will be a followup. One can dream.

[Midtowner]

making it smaller is an interesting choice. Weren't they using excess bad space to hold inmates for others at a fee, helping with operational costs until the beds were needed due to local growth.

Curious also how new and not downtown saves 234M in operational costs over renovating downtown? Seems a Q a reporter might have asked. Maybe ran out of alloted space and there will be a followup. One can dream.

I would guess it's because a less urban facility can be built more horizontally, make less efficient, but better use of space, etc.

I just wonder whether they're going to move the judges doing arraignments down to the new jail. It'd make sense except many of those lawyers have other cases set on different floors at around the same time.

[mugofbeer]

Maybe they could use the old brick pit west of AMC on 10th street and build horizontally downward........ (smile)

[bombermwc]

I wish we would also put in a temporary tax to rebuild the county courthouse and offices. Those places are in really bad shape and look horrible. I wonder how much it woudl cost to renovate the jail to be new offices...hahaha.

But seriously, how would anyone else feel about that? You know, one really good thing about it is that it could serve as a new skyscraper downtown as well. Similar sized cities have made county offices into really really really nice towers.

[kevinpate]

I just wonder whether they're going to move the judges doing arraignments down to the new jail.

nah, just increase the use of closed circuit video, which seems to be growing more popular with every passing year.

[circled9]

1. We really dont have a choice. If we dont build it, the feds will.
2. If we do build rather than renovate, I do hope that we will keep the old jail and use it to lock juvenile offenders up. It could be a multi county or even a state wide lockup. I get tired to hearing that some kid who had done something really bad was released to the custody of his parents because there are not enough beds. At least this would give us some value added for our tax investment.

[kevinpate]

... I get tired to hearing that some kid who had done something really bad was released to the custody of his parents because there are not enough beds. At least this would give us some value added for our tax investment.

Gonna need another tax still yet to staff and maintain those additional beds.
You thinking of taking the point on that campaign? Call Wetsale, he'll love ya.

[Midtowner]

1. We really dont have a choice. If we dont build it, the feds will.
2. If we do build rather than renovate, I do hope that we will keep the old jail and use it to lock juvenile offenders up. It could be a multi county or even a state wide lockup. I get tired to hearing that some kid who had done something really bad was released to the custody of his parents because there are not enough beds. At least this would give us some value added for our tax investment.

#1, agree. It's not a question of if, but when. And if the feds build it, they'll build it out of moonrock and platinum.

#2, I haven't heard that idea, but it's excellent. Also, DHS could probably make a mint off of auctioning the current facility (Chesapeake would love that location which happens to be right in the middle of their campus) to pay for the renovations which would be needed to either build new courtrooms and offices or renovate part of the jail to include those facilities.

[smooth]

1. We really dont have a choice. If we dont build it, the feds will.
2. If we do build rather than renovate, I do hope that we will keep the old jail and use it to lock juvenile offenders up. It could be a multi county or even a state wide lockup. I get tired to hearing that some kid who had done something really bad was released to the custody of his parents because there are not enough beds. At least this would give us some value added for our tax investment.

A detention officer who was visiting my place of employment told me the county wanted a prison like campus near Chocktaw. This is a VERY good idea because it could be on a section of land which will allow easy expansion.

Yes. The current facility was a disater. And yes. The federal Government will trake control of the faclility and build a new one which the county will have three years to repay. Plus the county will not have any decision authority on looks, location or anything. And one more yes. It will cost less to rebuild. Especially with an expansion plan in place.

I will be voting a very friendly yes.

[hoya]

Don't stick juveniles in that hell hole. County is an awful place. If it's unfit for current inmates, what makes you think it will be any better for kids?

[mrbob]

Do them like that one warden does. Put them in tents and pink jumpsuits, socks and underwear. Play Debbie Boone song , YOU LIGHT UP MY LIFE. Put a few Barry Manilow songs on the PA. I bet the population would go down. Hey it worked for him.

[Midtowner]

Do them like that one warden does. Put them in tents and pink jumpsuits, socks and underwear. Play Debbie Boone song , YOU LIGHT UP MY LIFE. Put a few Barry Manilow songs on the PA. I bet the population would go down. Hey it worked for him.

It gets too cold here for that to work.

[iron76hd]

Don't stick juveniles in that hell hole. County is an awful place. If it's unfit for current inmates,

Cry me a river!!! Poor inmates..
It's not supposed to be a place one want to go to. I suggest you look into the conditions of other prisons around the world. I feel ours are acceptable to say the least.

[neverontime]

Cry me a river!!! Poor inmates..
It's not supposed to be a place one want to go to. I suggest you look into the conditions of other prisons around the world. I feel ours are acceptable to say the least.

You are correct! It is not a place that anyone should want to go. But as a civilized nation, we can't allow people to die from neglect and overcrowding. Look at the problems Gitmo created. We must be HUMANE... After all we are HUMAN!

Suppose something happens to one of your love ones. maybe a child or grandchild walks out of a bar in bricktown and get's a public intox or something minor that requires him or her to be held over night in jail. Unlikely im sure, but not impossible. What if he/she is one of the minor offenders who is chained to the cell and dies in their vomit, killed by a violent prisoner because they are two crowded to separate the population, or badly hurt or not treated if they have an illness.

It's much more than just not feeling bad for offenders. It could affect you, me or anyone in this county, even if you never go to jail!!

Remember that.

[kd5ili]

A couple of comments. The cost is so expensive not because of 'prisoner comforts' but from all of the security and safety equipment required by State and Federal law. Also, the current jail was built in 1991 with 1200 cells...probably appropriate at the time with the growth that they expected, but a lot changes in 18 years.

We could just ship them all to Texas...

-Chris-

[circled9]

Cry me a river!!! Poor inmates..
It's not supposed to be a place one want to go to. I suggest you look into the conditions of other prisons around the world. I feel ours are acceptable to say the least.

But if the major problem is overcrowding and it is built for 1200, we could easily fit 1000 into the existing structure without it being overcrowded. Obviously, we would not have prisoners chained in the hallways if there were enough cells. Also we would not be placing the kid who got busted for underage drinking in bricktown on even the same floor as the kid who just robbed a convenience store. Hopefully there would be some common sense involved. Maybe I am just tired of hearing that a kid who committed an armed robbery was released because there were not enough juvenile offender beds. If there is a structure available, it would seem to make good business sense to use it even if some upgrades are needed. If the juvenile offenders knew that they were not going to be released to their parents, they may think twice before committing the crime.