New OCU Law School (dead)

[betts]

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Model T plant
LEGACYFAMILY HOPES MAPS 3 GIVES OLD FACTORY NEW USE AS LAW SCHOOL

BY STEVE LACKMEYER
Published: November 18, 2009

Calling it a "game changer” for development of west downtown, businessman Fred Jones Hall detailed a letter of intent Tuesday that calls for the Oklahoma City University Law School to move into the historic former Ford Model T plant his family owns.

"We’re very excited,” Hall said. "We see the success of the Oklahoma Health Center on the east side of downtown. We think that between OCU and maybe some other universities, we could build a music industry downtown as big as the health sciences center. And we have all the elements to have legal industry to take off down here.” The building at 900 W Main was built in 1916 by Henry Ford and sold to Hall’s grandfather, Fred Jones, in the 1940s.

Jones manufactured car parts in the factory, and in more recent years the plant has been used for parts distribution. It has been sought out by multiple developers seeking to convert it to housing, retail and offices. "Everyone likes the architecture and style of this building,” Hall said. "We’ve had inquiries every year.” Hall said Tuesday such plans never fit his family’s plans of maintaining control of their legacy property.

"We have criteria that have to be passed — it has to be a nonprofit institution that would help downtown, and at the same time allow the building to stay in the hands of the family. I think we’ve found that with the university.”

OCU President Tom McDaniel said he began looking at options of moving the law school downtown after he was asked by Mayor Mick Cornett to submit ideas for adding an education component to a potential MAPS 3 ballot. "We looked at a good number of locations, including First National Center,” McDaniel said. "But we never had one that appeared to be financially viable — where the finances would work.”

McDaniel called the old car plant an ideal location for the law school — if voters approve MAPS 3 and plans to create a downtown streetcar system. The streetcar, he said, could allow the school and the county to consider a consolidation of their two law libraries. He also noted the property is within walking distance of the Oklahoma County jail, police headquarters and municipal courts — all ideal for enhancing indigent legal aid initiatives for students. "We want to start an innocence project — we want to be servant leaders, we want people to graduate our law school knowing there is a need to serve others,” McDaniel said.

As a result, the letter of intent has a big "if” clause — the passage of MAPS 3 on Dec. 8.

Read more: NewsOK

[andy157]

Model T plant
LEGACYFAMILY HOPES MAPS 3 GIVES OLD FACTORY NEW USE AS LAW SCHOOL

BY STEVE LACKMEYER
Published: November 18, 2009

Calling it a "game changer” for development of west downtown, businessman Fred Jones Hall detailed a letter of intent Tuesday that calls for the Oklahoma City University Law School to move into the historic former Ford Model T plant his family owns.

"We’re very excited,” Hall said. "We see the success of the Oklahoma Health Center on the east side of downtown. We think that between OCU and maybe some other universities, we could build a music industry downtown as big as the health sciences center. And we have all the elements to have legal industry to take off down here.” The building at 900 W Main was built in 1916 by Henry Ford and sold to Hall’s grandfather, Fred Jones, in the 1940s.

Jones manufactured car parts in the factory, and in more recent years the plant has been used for parts distribution. It has been sought out by multiple developers seeking to convert it to housing, retail and offices. "Everyone likes the architecture and style of this building,” Hall said. "We’ve had inquiries every year.” Hall said Tuesday such plans never fit his family’s plans of maintaining control of their legacy property.

"We have criteria that have to be passed — it has to be a nonprofit institution that would help downtown, and at the same time allow the building to stay in the hands of the family. I think we’ve found that with the university.”

OCU President Tom McDaniel said he began looking at options of moving the law school downtown after he was asked by Mayor Mick Cornett to submit ideas for adding an education component to a potential MAPS 3 ballot. "We looked at a good number of locations, including First National Center,” McDaniel said. "But we never had one that appeared to be financially viable — where the finances would work.”

McDaniel called the old car plant an ideal location for the law school — if voters approve MAPS 3 and plans to create a downtown streetcar system. The streetcar, he said, could allow the school and the county to consider a consolidation of their two law libraries. He also noted the property is within walking distance of the Oklahoma County jail, police headquarters and municipal courts — all ideal for enhancing indigent legal aid initiatives for students. "We want to start an innocence project — we want to be servant leaders, we want people to graduate our law school knowing there is a need to serve others,” McDaniel said.

As a result, the letter of intent has a big "if” clause — the passage of MAPS 3 on Dec. 8.

Read more: NewsOK

A gift with strings attached. You can't get much more benevolent than that.

[Larry OKC]

A gift with strings attached. You can't get much more benevolent than that.

Sorry, but don't really see it that way. The component that makes the relocation of the law school work is the Downtown Streetcar connecting everything (presuming that the route is one that does indeed connect, since the route hasn't been established yet...)

If the Streetcar doesn't happen, it might not be viable.

[PennyQuilts]

I just want to know where the parking lot will be.

[andy157]

I just want to know where the parking lot will be.

They could park on the Fairgrounds and ride in on the street car. It would also allow horse show participants and fairgoers away to get back and forth to bricktown.

[PennyQuilts]

They could park on the Fairgrounds and ride in on the street car. It would also allow horse show participants and fairgoers away to get back and forth to bricktown.

Can't see that working. Too many students in a hurry to get to class and juggling work so they don't have the luxury of carting 30 pounds of books on periodic mass trans and still get their kids picked up at school, make dinner, do their reading and head back to work. They've got to have parking for a law school or close proximity to home if they don't have public transportation with a train or bus every 5 - 6 minutes. Classes have zero tolerance to waltz in even 30 seconds late the way you could with work or recreation.

[Midtowner]

Can't see that working. Too many students in a hurry to get to class and juggling work so they don't have the luxury of carting 30 pounds of books on periodic mass trans and still get their kids picked up at school, make dinner, do their reading and head back to work. They've got to have parking for a law school or close proximity to home if they don't have public transportation with a train or bus every 5 - 6 minutes. Classes have zero tolerance to waltz in even 30 seconds late the way you could with work or recreation.

Anything downtown couldn't be a whole lot worse than what we had on campus right now. If you haven't been lately, we did get the parking lot along 23rd, which was nice, but overflow was all the way out by the baseball fields.

[Doug Loudenback]

They could park on the Fairgrounds and ride in on the street car. It would also allow horse show participants and fairgoers away to get back and forth to bricktown.

Hey, who said that you are not a forward thinker?

[Comm'l Real Estate Guy]

The Hall Family owns land all around that building, so there is plenty of room for on-site parking.

[betts]

A gift with strings attached. You can't get much more benevolent than that.

Most gifts of that size have a string or two attached. Unless there is housing immediately adjacent to the law school, students will have to get to school somehow. Our downtown desperately needs better mass transit, and I think the reasoning behind the condition is pretty understandable.

I think it's a great idea, and a magnanimous gift.

[bombermwc]

Housing isn't really much of an issue. By the time students make it to law school, pretty much no one lives on campus. There are some, but the vast majority (and really the OCU student population in general) doesn't live on campus. Check out the commuter lots and you'll see how many more people drive in.

But if you take a look at the actual lot, besides the main building, there are several 1 story junkers that could be dozed...along with that ugly yellow metal fence. In fact everything on the whole south side of the building could go and not be missed. They're more your typical downtown rounded roof small storefront dime a dozen things. Not at all a gem like the main building...and nothing historic about them. So there's your parking right there.

But OCU is probably the best fit for that building. You know they will renovate to a high quality level. I would bet they surround with an iron fence with brick columns. It's going to take them a couple years to complete that type of renovation, but you know OCU will do it right.

One of the downsides I see is that it's not really that big of a building. Sarkey's is what 3 floors when you count the basement. Jones is 4, but the overal square feet of the buildings doesnt look like they net very much more space. And if they are trying to put the library back in the building AND combine it with the county one...hm. To me it looks like they'd be completely full when they move in.

I don't really see the location as a benefit though. OCU is only a couple miles up the road. Yes, now they can walk to the jail and police station....but the courthouse is not in walking distance. So again, what's the benefit? Right now they are on campus and you don't have to worry about getting to another offsite facility. With this move, you would...and I just don't see where the benefit lies in moving downtown.

The weird connection to MAPS3 isn't really clear either. There's nothing that says a rail line will go to this area and OCU. And this area is waaaaay off the C2S path. So any thoughts we had of OCU being part of C2S are gone. So it's just a typical reuse project. And even if the rail goes there, who would use it from OCU? Unless the school gives you a free pass, why would you want to pay to ride when you could take your own car and drive down and park for free at the building anyway? It's only a few miles so it's not like you're putting in a commute or anything.

I still just don't get it. It just feels like they want to move downtown just to say they have something downtown....whether it makes sense or not.

[andy157]

Most gifts of that size have a string or two attached. Unless there is housing immediately adjacent to the law school, students will have to get to school somehow. Our downtown desperately needs better mass transit, and I think the reasoning behind the condition is pretty understandable.

I think it's a great idea, and a magnanimous gift.

This gift could not have come at a more perfect time.....Christmas will be here before you know it.

[Pete]

The Hall Family owns land all around that building, so there is plenty of room for on-site parking.

They also said a couple of small buildings around the main one will be cleared.

[HOT ROD]

come on bomber, even I can see the many benefits that this has for downtown and OCU.

As for the transit, while the exact route has not been determined - Cornett has always said it would be 5-6 miles long during this first round (which is amazingly long for a startup Streetcar Tram route); so with this length it could cover C2S, Bricktown, Midtown, AAlley, the CBD and have spurs over to the Oklahoma Health Center AND Westtown (west downtown).

Remember, downtown OKC is quite compact - even when considering the surrounding districts; it's still only about just over 2 square miles we're talking (1.5 by 1.5) and you know Sheridan will be the main E-W route, that's a given (so there's roughly 1.6 miles of route there [Lincoln to Classen on Sheridan]). Im not sure what the main N-S route would be but I bet it would probably be a Robinson/Walker loop (to 'surround' the Central Park and continue up into the CBD and midtown [that would be roughly 3 miles]. Then the 'spurs' to deep deuce/aalley and the OHC from the NW 4/5/6/Walker/OKC Memorial corridor might add another mile track. The spur into Midtown/St Anthony and the small spur through Deep Deuce into Bricktown might total another mile. That all gives me roughly 6.6 miles of track (by my estimates/guesses).

I hope this would be all double track (maybe except the Robinson/Walker loop should probably be one way); I think such a line would be very very attractive and tie up most of what downtown OKC currrently has to offer or in the mix. My "guess" routing also brings in many parking options (especially on the fringes of the guess routing) where people could drive in NEAR downtown but spend the day using transit.

Guys - I hope Im right or close to right, because if so - this will be a HUGE BOON for downtown and Oklahoma City in general. I totally see this working, with students from OCU and UCO using it, as well as the downtown residents - that alone would justify the system so that suburbanites could also have the convenience to use it when they come downtown. Who knows, maybe the city has some other ideas for the fringes of downtown (such as parking garages?) where suburbanites could come in and park easy.

All I know, is this has worked wonderfully in Portland (again, Streetcar NOT light rail) as their downtown is very lively and there is much to do - and all can be done by streetcar or you can still drive (since the streetcar has a specific routing that did not take away ALL of the streets - just the same as my 'guestimate' of the OKC routing).

People, even if you don't like some of the MAPS 3 components (I myself am not too hot about the fairgrounds always having their hands in MAPS when they have dedicated revenue sources that by now should be paying for their capital plans and operations) but I feel very strongly that all of the other components will move OKC forward (even the fairgrounds component will move the city forward - Im just sick of always seeing/hearing we need to pour money into them when they have a source; and a big one at that). ...

And for those who are a bit upset that the streetcar would be just downtown - this is just a start people. ... OKC could also very well have commuter rail (even before the streetcar is running) and these two transit components would give options to people and further push for the need for other areas of the city to also get some rail.

in all honesty, you need to start with rail in your most dense areas - because having commuter rail from suburban areas into downtown but then not having any way for people to get around once their there - well that doesn't make any sense.

And we know OKC has a stigma on busses - and in some respects, rightfully so given their poor management and even worse routing/coverage; but I don't think OKC would feel the same about trains.

Most major cities need to prove they need transit by filling busses first. OKC is unique in that we can build systems ourselves and build are own critical mass; to use that to justify expanded rail opportunities (like commuter rail in the Guthrie to Purcell corridor, and expanding the MWC/Tinker commuter rail proposal to Shawnee and west to El Reno) as well as light rail opportunities in the inner and not so inner OKC (definitely in the future though) and streetcar spurring outside of downtown into dense urban areas of the inner city (think Paseo/Asia District/OCU, Capital Hill, OK State Capitol campus, Eastside, Stockyard's City/Fairgrounds/Meridian as possible spurs to the downtown circular).

in all honesty, I think the transit component ALONE (and sidewalks/lighting to make everything attractive and easy/safe to get to/use) is enough reason to pass MAPS 3 - the convention center, the central park, the other components; they are just icing on the cake.

And OCU's announcement is another PRIVATE icing. All of this MAPS 3 investment, OCU, (and the expected incremental addition in private investment MAPS always attracts) will put OKC well into position with it's new peer cities and make us a PLAYER that must be considered (and surely OKC will get a lot of initial business/conventions just for the sake of being new), but with these public and private improvements - we can convince people to come back and even STAY.

This all makes complete sense to me, let's make this happen now. Later, we can ammend the mistakes so that everyone feels better about the rules/approach to MAPS 4.

[Pete]

BTW, this should be a great boon for Film Row, which is right next to the propsed school. Will bring in lots more residents and related businesses (like coffee shops and restaurants). Also means they would be on the streetcar line.

Similarly, this might jump start the rumored Precor development just west of Devon Tower.

Fred Jones properties in yellow, Film Row in blue, Precor in pink:

[Pete]

I'm sure the plan is to demolish some or all of the little buildings just south of the main factory:

[Pete]

Just did a little research and found the OCU law school has about 600 students.

That's a good number and I'm sure they'll be looking to increase that with larger facilities.

[PennyQuilts]

The Hall Family owns land all around that building, so there is plenty of room for on-site parking.

That takes care of that, then.

[PennyQuilts]

I am not trying to be argumentative but I would like to address the comments that seem to suggest that moving the law school downtown would sort of be a boon for the merchants in the area. My experience with law school was that we didn't do a lot of sitting around in corner cafes, drinking coffee and being urbane. Most of us were working our butts off, half freaked out and trying to juggle our responsibilities to make it all work. By the time we got to our third year, we were pretty much working full-time and trying to impress prospective employers. Hanging out making the area look cosmopolitan (as if we could) wasn't all that noticible. Law School was as different from undergrad as day from night. Most of us left for lunch or skipped it. I liked to go to VZD's. But for students on a budget, there better be some fast food close by. Downtown is not particularly cheap, day in and day out.

All that being said, I was there when they built the Sarkey's Building so moving away from it is odd to me, emotionally. Seems like we just moved in. But a lot has been going on in the past 15 years or so.

[Pete]

Penny, you could make all the same arguments for the Health Sciences Center yet there is no doubt it has done much to bring life, housing and other services to the eastern downtown area.

And of course, if the law school was tied to the courthouse and the rest of downtown via streetcar, I'm sure that would make for a very different dynamic than sitting on a campus that wasn't within walking/riding distance of much of anything.

[Midtowner]

Penny, things have definitely changed. The law school or clubs at the law school rent a bar in Bricktown for a party it seems at least weekly. For me, it was very much like college -- yes, I studied and stressed my butt off for the first few semesters, but it really slowed down for me. The school has a much more traditional (young) student body than it used to, so I do think you'd get quite a few kids studying in coffee shops and the like.

If the law school is in Fred Jones, Tannebaum's prayers as to what to do about his parking situation could easily be answered. Add a grocery store into the mix, and there's just about everything a law student would need -- even without a car (work opportunities, school, home).

[mugofbeer]

A gift with strings attached. You can't get much more benevolent than that.

Sounds like a federal government unfunded spending mandate.

[PennyQuilts]

Got a note to the Alums from the Dean - here is part of it:

I want to assure the law school community that neither the law school leadership nor President McDaniel will recommend an agreement that does not meet the following objectives:

Significantly larger and superior facilities for the law school
Attractive and functional design appropriate for a school of law in the 21st Century
Financial arrangements that will not impose undue burdens on law students or the law school's operating budget
State-of-the-art security arrangements
Adequate and affordable parking

So there you go!

[bombermwc]

Hot Rod - I didn't see a single statement that was an explanation for what the benefit to the law school would be versus building on campus. The impact on the area has nothing to do with whether it's good for OCU. Of course if OCU moves in there, it would be a great spur for the area, but that's doesn't answer any point about why it's good for OCU.

Also, "affordable parking" means they want them to pay for parking. That's a MAJOR minus to current on-campus options.

[mugofbeer]

Hot Rod - I didn't see a single statement that was an explanation for what the benefit to the law school would be versus building on campus. The impact on the area has nothing to do with whether it's good for OCU. Of course if OCU moves in there, it would be a great spur for the area, but that's doesn't answer any point about why it's good for OCU.

Also, "affordable parking" means they want them to pay for parking. That's a MAJOR minus to current on-campus options.

I asked the same question when this rumor came up a while back and was told by a couple of the lawyers on the thread that having the law school in close proximity to the law firms in town is a great advantage. Not being a lawyer, I don't know much more than that, but maybe it helps.