Streetcars Downtown

[okieopus]

I know that some sort of downtown transit was planned as part of MAPS but instead we go that silly trolley looking thing on wheels.

I think a real streetcar system on rails would be great downtown. It would add charm as well as ease some of the parking issues.

here are some links to streetcar programs in other cities...

http://www.mata.org/

http://www.islandtransit.net/

[ccsokc]

I think a streetcar system downtown would be a good idea for the future, but right now due to the fact that we still are really in the infant stages of development the current system keeps ALL options open. We should really wait at least 10 more years to plan any form of permanant line locations and stops. Just look at how bricktown/downtown has changed in the past 3........

[mranderson]

I think a streetcar system downtown would be a good idea for the future, but right now due to the fact that we still are really in the infant stages of development the current system keeps ALL options open. We should really wait at least 10 more years to plan any form of permanant line locations and stops. Just look at how bricktown/downtown has changed in the past 3........

No. ten years away from planning would be a mistake. Have you ever lived in a city that started a rapid transit (or street car) line? If so, you would know it takes ten years just to build it and get the first line open.

If we waited ten years just to plan one, it would be 20 years before it would be on line, and cost a great deal more than it would if we planned now. Planning now and getting funding would get us started and on budget.

Here is a local example. From the time it was first planned until the first venue was open, how long did it take MAPS? And that was just a building... Correct? Think about that.

The time is now.

[PUGalicious]

...or never.

It's a pie-in-the-sky dream with limited return. The resources could be better spent elsewhere, like improving all the streets around the downtown/Bricktown area.

[BDP]

No. ten years away from planning would be a mistake. Have you ever lived in a city that started a rapid transit (or street car) line? If so, you would know it takes ten years just to build it and get the first line open.

So true. Building infrastructure after you need it is much more difficult than building it before you need it. I know we disagree on this, but our roads are good example. We build capacity much faster than most cities relative to our traffic. The result is few jams at all and commute times faster than anywhere else.

We should really wait at least 10 more years to plan any form of permanent line locations and stops. Just look at how bricktown/downtown has changed in the past 3........

Actually, trolley lines establish were the development happens. Lots of times public transit is put in place off the major drags because of the inconvenience and economic impact the construction has. Once in place the economic center usually shifts from the previous hot spot to that transit line. It is a chicken and the egg thing, but in the end the businesses will go wherever the traffic is and that's usually dictated by public transit.

It's just like freeways, people and businesses will move along them so they can get around. We've never used it here, but proper planning of transportation routes can be a very effective tool to control and guide development of a city.

[soonerguru]

You can forget any kind of transportation that requires a rail as long as Sir Istook is in office. We would be more likely to see Amish cabbies with a horse and buggy system.

[mranderson]

You can forget any kind of transportation that requires a rail as long as Sir Istook is in office. We would be more likely to see Amish cabbies with a horse and buggy system.

We have that now. It is called a poorly planned freeway system full of people scared to drive on them. Or people who either do not know what that stick is sticking out of the left side of the steering wheel or do not know common courtesy... Or both. Rapid transit would reduce all that.

[RichardR369]

Randy Humes had a REAL trolley planned downtown and Istook threatened him so badly that he backed out of the project. Now we have a canal wannabe in its place.

Then Istook took that money to Salt Lake City Utah so that they could have LRT up there.

[Popsy]

I think it would be great if all the trolley and light rail proponents banded together. invested their personal funds and convinced their friends to invest in a corporation that would provide these services which OKC so sorely needs. I am just wondering though, where your first break even line would run from point "A" to point "B" that would turn a monthly profit in say the next twenty or thirty years.

[soonerguru]

Popsy,

Government infrastructure is not built to "make a profit." The Army isn't in the "free market." We don't invest in bridge futures.

Just a little FYI. Don't get all carried away with the "market will decide" crap. The money was ours from the Feds, but Istook wrote a letter to turn it down. 'Splain that.

Pure lunacy.

[Popsy]

Guru

I realize the infrastructure is not set up to create a profit, but you would hope after some period of time there would be enough demand for it that it could at least cover its operating expenses, i.e., the turnpikes we have built. Trolleys and light rail in OKC will forever be a significant financial drain and only serve a very small percentage of the population. The public funds would be better spent and fewer dollars need by providing bus passes or taxi vouchers to the needy. In a perfect world and at the perfect time light rail and trolleys might be great, but OKC has so many other infrastucture needs I would rather see any public funds spent on projects that serve the most people.

We pay fuel taxes to cover the cost of streets and bridges. We pay water and sewage bills to cover the operating costs of that infrastucture. My point is that pubic funds might provide the infrastucture, but there needs to some hope to recover a significant portion of the operating costs and to me buses probably will serve us better than rails. I admit however, that I could be wrong.

By the way, I have no interest in defending Istook.

[windowphobe]

Rail transit will require massive subsidies to operate. Then again, the existing bus/trolley system requires massive subsidies to operate, and no one is suggesting shutting them down because of it.

The likelihood that any public-transit system outside the densely-populated Northeast will turn a profit, or at least earn enough to pay its bills without drawing on government (which is to say, "taxpayer") funds, is close to nil. It's a municipal (or other governmental body) service, and a legitimate one, but it's never going to pay its own way.

[RichardR369]

Have no interest in defending Istook? Neither do I anymore. Gave that up. Even left the church because of him.

[Patrick]

The only reason Istook continues to get elected is because he claims to have conservative values. Anyone who claims to have conservative values in Oklahoma will win. Just look at Coburn vs. Carson. For a Democrat, Carson was actually pretty conservative......he was known as one of the more conservative Democrats in Congress. But Coburn painted Carson out to look like a liberal.

As lnog as Istook keeps claiming to be a conservative, he will keep winning.

I do give him some credit though...he's brought us closer to completely financing the Crosstown....but that isn't asking too much from a pro-highway and anti-rail guy.

[mranderson]

The only reason Istook continues to get elected is because he claims to have conservative values. Anyone who claims to have conservative values in Oklahoma will win. Just look at Coburn vs. Carson. For a Democrat, Carson was actually pretty conservative......he was known as one of the more conservative Democrats in Congress. But Coburn painted Carson out to look like a liberal.

As lnog as Istook keeps claiming to be a conservative, he will keep winning.

I do give him some credit though...he's brought us closer to completely financing the Crosstown....but that isn't asking too much from a pro-highway and anti-rail guy.

Actually, take a lesson from Eddie Murphy's "The Destinguished Gentleman." It is "the name you know." That simpally means a lot of the voting public is so uneducated about how to select a candidate, that if it is an incumbant, they vote for him or her. As long as I took continues to run, he will win. We need a VERY strong candidate to change this. Until then, we can forget about fair funding for what we need.