OKC Public Safety Already Has a Permanent Funding Source From Sales Tax

[okcpulse]

As I just posted on another thread, .75% of Oklahoma City's 3.875% municipal sales tax already goes to fire and police protection. I'll once again post the breakdown of OKC's sales tax structure...

4.5% goes to the state.
3.875% goes to the city. Of that 3.875%...

1% goes to fund MAPS (temporary... in this case Ford Center upgrade)
2% goes to the general budget (Permanent)
.75% goes to police and fire (Permanent)
.125% goes to the Oklahoma City Zoo (Permanent)

And once again, the sales tax rate isn't even going to change, so it is in no way going to impact people's pocket books as we've been paying the rate for ten years.

So, since police and fire already has a permanent funding source from sales tax, and are attacking the temporary funding source for MAPS 3, a program whose projects ARE VITAL to continue elevating Oklahoma City's quality of life, I have only one question left for the opposition...

Do you care to change your bull**** story?

[Doug Loudenback]

In fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

[flintysooner]

As I understand it there is also the question about whether or not the money collected is being used for other purposes.

[andy157]

As I just posted on another thread, .75% of Oklahoma City's 3.875% municipal sales tax already goes to fire and police protection. I'll once again post the breakdown of OKC's sales tax structure...

4.5% goes to the state.
3.875% goes to the city. Of that 3.875%...

1% goes to fund MAPS (temporary... in this case Ford Center upgrade)
2% goes to the general budget (Permanent)
.75% goes to police and fire (Permanent)
.125% goes to the Oklahoma City Zoo (Permanent)

And once again, the sales tax rate isn't even going to change, so it is in no way going to impact people's pocket books as we've been paying the rate for ten years.

So, since police and fire already has a permanent funding source from sales tax, and are attacking the temporary funding source for MAPS 3, a program whose projects ARE VITAL to continue elevating Oklahoma City's quality of life, I have only one question left for the opposition...

Do you care to change your bull**** story?

Since the tax rate is the focus of this thread, for clarification purposes I have a question. When you say attack, in what context are you using it for? Attacking in general? Attacking the current rate? Attacking by using a portion of the use tax? I just curious. FYI in the next week I will be compiling some facts and figures regarding the 3/4 PS Sales Tax

[okcpulse]

In fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

I agree, however, that 3/4 of a cent is in addition to a good portion of the 2% tax that goes to the city's general fund.

In all honesty, this whole thing sounds like a completely seperate issue from MAPS that public safety needs to work out with the city. It didn't become public until MAPS3 went public.

The whole "I won't do this for you unless you do this for me" is just juvenile.

[Tier2City]

I also posted this in another forum:

I understand the total OKC Public Safety Budget is $290 million. If 1% sales tax equates to $100 million, where is the rest of Public Safety being funded from in addition to the dedicated public safety 0.75%/$75 million sales tax?

I'd like to know all the sources for total annual Public Safety spending.

[iron76hd]

I

n fairness to the other side, Pulse, the 3/4 cent earmarked sales tax has been around since 1989 but the amount is obviously not enough enough to provide for permanent staffing of additional fire fighters and police. I've suggested in another thread that, if the public favors the union staffing need position that an additional dedicated tax of another 1/4 cent or so shouldn't have that much trouble passing.

Exactly!


Why didn't the Mayor initially lead the idea of additional support for City Services. Through a tax or whatever. He's saying he's willing to do it now as an afterthought.

On Flash Point this morning he says....In one breath he says they are "separate issues". Then in the other he tells us he planned to use the "USE" tax from MAPS3 to support police and fire....in the same Flash Point he says if MAPS3 doesn't pass our Police and Fire Problems will multiply.

Our problems are going to multiply all of the sudden now?...IF MAPS3 doesn't pass....So we definitely have a problem...by his admission...so why hasn't he addressed it??

Geez..

[andy157]

According to the City's adopted budget for FY/09-10, here is a breakdown of the 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax. The Revenue (income) figures are ESTIMATES, Personal Service Expenditures (expense) represents the ESTIMATED wages and benefits for the 200 additional Firefighters, and the 200 additional Police Officers for which the tax was meant to fund, as well as, obligated to fund. The Transfer figures represent money being shifted from the PSST over to the City's General Fund. What this means in plain english is Transfers = General Fund (income) relief. Transfer amounts are ACTUAL not estimates. The City makes sure they get each and every single penny back into their General Fund.(Personal Disclosure)Transfers= Kickback.

Fire Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $21,951,210.
Transfer- $11,263,377.

Police Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $23,707,114.
Transfer- $ 8,647,270.

Total Revenue- $69,875,546.
Expense- $45,658,324.
Transfer- $19,910,647.

Here are two more important facts. The City inflates the actual per Firefighter expense for bugetary purposes. The City holds vacancies throughout the fiscal year( in FY/03-04 they held 43). These two factors inflated cost and not filling vacant positions create savings to the budget.

The approximate amount of $4,306,575. that remains is divided between the F & P departments and used for other misc. expenses, capitol outlay, or held as a Fund Balance (savings account).

[okcpulse]

Since the tax rate is the focus of this thread, for clarification purposes I have a question. When you say attack, in what context are you using it for? Attacking in general? Attacking the current rate? Attacking by using a portion of the use tax? I just curious. FYI in the next week I will be compiling some facts and figures regarding the 3/4 PS Sales Tax

I really shoudn't use the word attack, but public safety's opposition to the 1% temporary sales tax being used to fund MAPS3.

[okcpulse]

According to the City's adopted budget for FY/09-10, here is a breakdown of the 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax. The Revenue (income) figures are ESTIMATES, Personal Service Expenditures (expense) represents the ESTIMATED wages and benefits for the 200 additional Firefighters, and the 200 additional Police Officers for which the tax was meant to fund, as well as, obligated to fund. The Transfer figures represent money being shifted from the PSST over to the City's General Fund. What this means in plain english is Transfers = General Fund (income) relief. Transfer amounts are ACTUAL not estimates. The City makes sure they get each and every single penny back into their General Fund.(Personal Disclosure)Transfers= Kickback.

Fire Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $21,951,210.
Transfer- $11,263,377.

Police Revenue- $34,937,773.
Expense- $23,707,114.
Transfer- $ 8,647,270.

Total Revenue- $69,875,546.
Expense- $45,658,324.
Transfer- $19,910,647.

Here are two more important facts. The City inflates the actual per Firefighter expense for bugetary purposes. The City holds vacancies throughout the fiscal year( in FY/03-04 they held 43). These two factors inflated cost and not filling vacant positions create savings to the budget.

The approximate amount of $4,306,575. that remains is divided between the F & P departments and used for other misc. expenses, capitol outlay, or held as a Fund Balance (savings account).

I think we can all admit that sales tax revenue is not a stable funding source for something as critical as police and fire protection. Unfortunately, the Oklahoma Constitution prohibits municipalities from using property tax for general operations. GO bonds can pay for additional funding, but just like MAPS, GO bonds are temporary. Citizens would be asked to repeatedly vote for a new CIP for police and fire every few years just to keep funding alive.

[Wambo36]

I think we can all admit that sales tax revenue is not a stable funding source for something as critical as police and fire protection. Unfortunately, the Oklahoma Constitution prohibits municipalities from using property tax for general operations. GO bonds can pay for additional funding, but just like MAPS, GO bonds are temporary. Citizens would be asked to repeatedly vote for a new CIP for police and fire every few years just to keep funding alive.

Thanks Andy for the figures. Pulse, does that still sound like a bull**** story? The city has been reducing their general fund obligation to the police and fire departments since the 3/4 cent sales tax passed. They reduced the number of FF and PO's paid for in the general fund so that we will never see the 200 ADDITIONAL FF's the tax was supposed to provide for. In the last ten years the FD call volume has increased by 85% while they have lost 49 positions. Hardly what the people voted for. They've become very creative in their methods of diverting these funds but anyone with a fair eye can see through their bull**** story. I still can't believe these are the people you are trusting with this vague ballot.

[hipsterdoofus]

I like how a park is "vital" compared to police and fire services. Seriously? Some people on here seem to have completely lost perspective. I don't claim to know the whole story with the police and fire stuff, but you are sure buying what the mayor is selling when you think that the city will dry up and blow away without MAPS 3.

[betts]

I like how a park is "vital" compared to police and fire services. Seriously? Some people on here seem to have completely lost perspective. I don't claim to know the whole story with the police and fire stuff, but you are sure buying what the mayor is selling when you think that the city will dry up and blow away without MAPS 3.

It's not going to dry up and blow away, but do you really think Oklahoma City is anywhere near where it could be, or should be if we want to be taken seriously as a major city? Can you not look at the massive changes MAPS created and think that MAPS 3 has the potential to do the same? As I've said, we're so far behind some of the other cities we want to emulate that if we stop improving things, we risk staying as far behind or falling farther behind. I want to catch up, and that takes action. What amuses me is that we keep seeing all this "rich people" paranoia, and yet, if we as a city don't improve ourself, we have to sit back and expect those "rich people" to do it for us. Rich people don't put in streetcars or mass transit or build public parks (except for Larry Nichols, to whom I am incredibly grateful, but who is the exception rather than the rule), they don't build sidewalks or bike trails. We need to be proactive as a city and as citizens, and work to make this a better place in which to live, to remove that "backwater" and "dustbowl" image we've got, to make this a vibrant, progressive city.

[okcpulse]

I like how a park is "vital" compared to police and fire services. Seriously? Some people on here seem to have completely lost perspective. I don't claim to know the whole story with the police and fire stuff, but you are sure buying what the mayor is selling when you think that the city will dry up and blow away without MAPS 3.

I never said the park was "vital" compared to police and fire services. Don't put words into my mouth. BOTH are vital, but public safety using MAPS as a pawn is not the answer. Sorry, but it's not.

Campaigning the city for a better, permanent funding source is the answer, but no one seems to get that through their head. Why didn't they go public with this before MAPS? No one has still been able to answer that one.

[okcpulse]

Thanks Andy for the figures. Pulse, does that still sound like a bull**** story? The city has been reducing their general fund obligation to the police and fire departments since the 3/4 cent sales tax passed. They reduced the number of FF and PO's paid for in the general fund so that we will never see the 200 ADDITIONAL FF's the tax was supposed to provide for. In the last ten years the FD call volume has increased by 85% while they have lost 49 positions. Hardly what the people voted for. They've become very creative in their methods of diverting these funds but anyone with a fair eye can see through their bull**** story. I still can't believe these are the people you are trusting with this vague ballot.

The police and fire unions are crying for more money, and that is by opposing a program that is funded by a temporary one cent sales tax while they have permanent funding through a dedicated .75% sales tax in addition to the lions share of a 2% general sales tax fund.

They argue that with MAPS 3 passing that police and fire services will be in peril. That's the bull**** story.

What they SHOULD be saying is with the continued growth of Oklahoma City, the current funding trend would put the fire and police protection in peril. I would buy that. If I were them, I would have been going public with this problem long ago. That would have put the city in a position BEFORE MAPS to address their needs.

As far as the vague ballot is concerned, there was information released as to why the wording of the ballot is extremely different. It turns out the wording of the original MAPS ballot was illegal, and to avoid possible challenges, the ballot for MAPS 3 had to generalize MAPS 3 as a single project, not multiple projects as it was on the first ballot.

[iron76hd]

We need to be proactive as a city and as citizens, and work to make this a better place in which to live, to remove that "backwater" and "dustbowl" image we've got, to make this a vibrant, progressive city.

Yea let's be like Houston. We already lead them in 3 of 7 Major crime categories. We beat them in Rape, Burglary, and Theft. We are neck and neck in Assaults. And they have 2 Million People in their city.

We lead Phoenix in Rape, Burglary, Theft and Assault.

Seattle...We lead them in Murders, Rape, Assault, Burglary and Theft.

Violent Crime Rates On The Rise | KSBI Thunder TV | News Sports Radar Weather Cams | Oklahoma City | News

Big League City alright. Betts looks like your priorities are in line with the Mayor's. Unfortunately, you and the Mayor's good "quality of life" are a little out of the "norm" shall we say....

[Tier2City]

The police and fire unions are crying for more money, and that is by opposing a program that is funded by a temporary one cent sales tax while they have permanent funding through a dedicated .75% sales tax in addition to the lions share of a 2% general sales tax fund.

How much is that lions share of the 2% general sales tax?

[andy157]

The police and fire unions are crying for more money, and that is by opposing a program that is funded by a temporary one cent sales tax while they have permanent funding through a dedicated .75% sales tax in addition to the lions share of a 2% general sales tax fund.

They argue that with MAPS 3 passing that police and fire services will be in peril. That's the bull**** story.

What they SHOULD be saying is with the continued growth of Oklahoma City, the current funding trend would put the fire and police protection in peril. I would buy that. If I were them, I would have been going public with this problem long ago. That would have put the city in a position BEFORE MAPS to address their needs.

As far as the vague ballot is concerned, there was information released as to why the wording of the ballot is extremely different. It turns out the wording of the original MAPS ballot was illegal, and to avoid possible challenges, the ballot for MAPS 3 had to generalize MAPS 3 as a single project, not multiple projects as it was on the first ballot.

I brought this over from another thread. As you can see, you are right. We should have done a better job of voicing our concerns to the public years ago. Hopefully this lesson will not be forgotten in the future

To say that no one from the Fire or police departments said anything about staffing concerns until the MAPS 3 press release is not actually correct.

I can not speak for the administrations of either the Fire or Police departments, or the FOP. But I can assure you the IAFF has been talking about Firefighter staffing issue since 2001. Talks with Fire Chiefs, Councilpersons, and the City Manager have at best only been able to maintain the status quo.

When the Fire Dept. staffing level was at 999 in 2000 the City manager began his reduction plan. We argued against the reduction of staffing every year but to no avail. We had year after year of cuts that brought staffing down to 948 in 2004.

The City Managers plan was to continue making cuts down to a level of 900. The best we were able to accomplish is getting him stopped at 948. The only thing that kept him from his goal was the economy and the threats of a lawsuit.

Now with the economy as his cover and a game plan 6 years in the making he sees his oportunity to resume his plan. Our mistake I see now was that we did not take our vocal protest to the public years ago.

[okcpulse]

Yea let's be like Houston. We already lead them in 3 of 7 Major crime categories. We beat them in Rape, Burglary, and Theft. We are neck and neck in Assaults. And they have 2 Million People in their city.

We lead Phoenix in Rape, Burglary, Theft and Assault.

Seattle...We lead them in Murders, Rape, Assault, Burglary and Theft.

Violent Crime Rates On The Rise | KSBI Thunder TV | News Sports Radar Weather Cams | Oklahoma City | News

Big League City alright. Betts looks like your priorities are in line with the Mayor's. Unfortunately, you and the Mayor's good "quality of life" are a little out of the "norm" shall we say....

Don't throw crime stats in our faces. Police officers arrest criminals, not prevent them from committing crimes. Do you seriously think a rapist is going to check the staffing numbers of OKCPD to determine whether he's going to rape his next victim?

By adequately staffing police, response times will be increased, but it will damn sure not keep someone from busting in.

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates. Houston may have lower "rates" in some crime categories, but quality of life in Houston is incremental. There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.

[Chance23]

Don't throw crime stats in our faces. Police officers arrest criminals, not prevent them from committing crimes. Do you seriously think a rapist is going to check the staffing numbers of OKCPD to determine whether he's going to rape his next victim?

By adequately staffing police, response times will be increased, but it will damn sure not keep someone from busting in.

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates. Houston may have lower "rates" in some crime categories, but quality of life in Houston is incremental. There's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.

prepare to get trolled!

[blangtang]

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates.

link(s)? lol! for the troll gallery

[Larry OKC]

How much is that lions share of the 2% general sales tax?

Just FYI...

NewsOK

MAPS 3 could generate public safety money, Oklahoma City says (11/12/09)

Ward 1 Councilman Gary Marrs, a former fire chief, said he's upset about union claims that the city doesn't adequately support public safety. He noted that two-thirds of the city's annual general fund budget goes to public safety.

[iron76hd]

Police officers arrest criminals, not prevent them from committing crimes.

LOL...We try to catch them in the act but never do. We ALWAYS just arrest them after the fact. Your perception of our Police Department could be because their is no Manpower to do proactive policing, but we do catch a few in the act believe it or not. I can't even touch much of your post it's almost laughable.

Do you seriously think a rapist is going to check the staffing numbers of OKCPD to determine whether he's going to rape his next victim?

Not necessarily, but citizens do consider that as factor before they relocate or decide to stop for a visit.

By increasing the quality of life, you decrease crime rates. Houston may have lower "rates" in some crime categories, but quality of life in Houston is incremental.

Some call Houston the armpit of Texas. Did you know that?

there's a whole ward the HPD tries not to touch because things are so bad.

Interesting that was my point! Which ward won't Houston PD touch. I have several contacts at Houston PD and i'd be curious to hear about that.

[bombermwc]

Well the Police and Fire need to keep something in mind here. By making a fuss about this in the manner they are, they are in danger of losing public support for their cause. If MAPS 3 fails to pass, the citizenry will consider it the fault of Police and Fire now whether they are the real cause of that failure or not. That being said...consider this folks. The next time a vote comes around to support you, the public will remember (and there will be groups making sure the public remembers) how MAPS 3 failed, and how we missed out on continuing our path to improving our city because some people got their feelings hurt.

You guys haven't considered what type of fight you've picked can have on your case. Who's going to vote for an increase in taxes for you if you complain all the time? Look at the OK County Sherrif for an example of how that always backfires. You need to have your own campaign to help your cause...not fighting one that improves the city WITHOUT question. The rationalization of the groups of how MAPS3 is unneccessary is very shortsighted. If we all thought that way, we would never have had MAPS 1...and where would we be today? We'd be continuing to decline and fall off the radar, losing population and losing even more money for you.

The best plan of actions is to #1, seek out federal grants to purchase the equipment you need. That removes the burdon of those dollars on your normal budget...freeing them up for employee expenses. #2, seek out bonds to do more of the same. This same policy has worked for other cities in the metro...look at MWC. They have the best rating in the state, and they aren't getting extra tax dollars from their citizens. It's just managed better...even including the new stations (bonds...hello). #3, if these things aren't working, start a campaign to let the public know of the problems...it's your job to convince them that we need to help out and add a bit of taxes. We're already one of the lowest taxes around, we can bump it up some and still be one of the lowest. If you explain things rationally without kicking dirt around on the playground, you'll get a lot more done. We all know HQ needs to be dozed over....but didn't the Santa Fe station get a facelift not long ago? You can't say things aren't being done. But it's your job to convince the public...and pissing and moaning about projects that the citizenry know to help out the city's continual climb, isn't going to help. In fact, it will hurt your argument.

[okcpulse]

Interesting that was my point! Which ward won't Houston PD touch. I have several contacts at Houston PD and i'd be curious to hear about that.

I was always told it was the fifth ward.