OKC Police & Fire needs

[MGE1977]

Patrick,

Easy man. Lots of veterans and service men and women who may be involved in what you interpret as "unjust" warfare so as to provide themselves with an education, or because they simply feel compelled as a patriot, can hear you. Lets all just keep them in mind when we feel the very impulsive desire to rant on this thread and make a point, or miss one, whichever you choose.

[Wambo36]

I have to pay a mortgage and student loans. I don't know too many folks who would take on the Attorney General's office single-handedly for free. Now, if y'all want to pay me to do the work, then I'm on board.

We can't all be Jerry Fent.

I have a question Mid. Which ballot are you referring to being illegal and unconstitutional?

[betts]

Betts,

You are coming off very "elite-ist" in your last several entries. I'll not argue that when it comes to specialized fields, I am more than happy to spend my hard earned money for the very best qualified and educated person that I can find. I'll draw the line when you say that because someone invested in an education, that person is then entitled to something. The very word investment implies that the person involved is gambling on returns. Education is not a qualifier. You are wrong. As to finding something to "freeze up" and or "screw up" someone, I don't think that Iron76 is taking pride in washing someone out, merely stating that the sort of education that you obviously rely on for self edification is not applicable to the street. Fire and Police are not rocket surgeons and they have no delusions of granduer contradictory to this point. Fire and Police are average joes trained and capable of above average decision making and tasked with the mitigation of very extreme circumstances satisfactorily as deemed by the tax paying public. You do not belong on the streets, Fire and Police do not belong anywhere but where they choose to be - directly in the middle of some of the worst things this city has to offer. Do not imply that formal education requires compensation commensurate to money spent for said education. I hope that your daughter is worth every penny of the money she put in to her education, but if she is not, probably she'll receive money in large sums equal to the title she has received, regardless. Lets not kid ourselves, those who feel entitled to money because they went to school only feel that way because in reality fromally educated folk can in fact make gobs of money while producing very little. Fire and police in fact are trained in academy styled forums, true, and then their real education begins. I am not going to argue which education is more right, or more real because that would be ridiculous. I am going to say, that Fire and Police are just as proud of the training and education they receive as should be the lawyers and doctors and big shots of the world. With all that being said, the issue is not how Fire and Police are compensated, mostly we all provide very good lives for our families. The issue is that Fire and Police are working harder with less staff as are other city departments. A 2% budget reduction was required by all department heads (with very strong insinuations that a further cut of 3% would be upcoming for the next fiscal year) the very week that the December 8 maps election was proposed. How can this not seem a little "cart before the horse?"

What is laughable is that I am probably one of the least elitist people you will ever meet. And, I don't think it's wrong to believe that people who spend 8 to 15 years training for their profession, while not receiving any income for most of it, are entitled to higher salaries than people who are trained on the job. If nothing else, scarcity is one of the predominant causes for increases in prices, no matter what you are talking about. There are not a lot of people who are willing to spend that much time being trained without compensation, so their scarcity drives up prices.

I do take extreme issue with one of your statements, however: "Lets not kid ourselves, those who feel entitled to money because they went to school only feel that way because in reality fromally educated folk can in fact make gobs of money while producing very little."

I suppose you think 100 hour work weeks, 120 nights of call a year and two out of three weekends off without any compensation for overtime is "producing very little". Unpaid vacations go along with that job as well, as do regular cuts in compensation. I suppose the people who develop new drugs, develop new technology, do research to find cures for diseases, etc "produce very little". Any interest in cutting out that sector of our society altogether?

All of us in government jobs, and probably many people in private institutions, are dealing wih budget cuts. There are many people dealing with unemployment, which is worse. As I've said, the election allows us to determine what we want to spend our penny on. It's a personal choice for every voter. We live in a democracy. If MAPS 3 passes, it is the will of the voters. If it doesn't, it is the same. Regardless, its failure to pass will neither stop budget cuts nor reduce furloughs and layoffs.

[MGE1977]

Betts,

What do you think motivates a person to go to 8-15 years of school during which time that person goes largely uncompensated? Is it the calling? Is it knowing that their true passions in life lie in helping others? If that be the case then they'd all be driving modest vehicles and filling Sunday school classes with testimonials and Panera would never have come to pass. Let me slow this down for you, they are, at least partially....wait for it.... In it for the money. Why are they enticed by the money? Even slower now....Because its there. Many of the well paid titles carry hefty salaries regardless of the incompetence or ineptitudes of those degreed few who wear them on lab coats or have them painted on office doors. Should I weep that a person who went to 8-15 years of school has to take 120 hrs of call per year? One hundred hr work weeks, when, during internship? Regular pay cuts? Enough that a Doctor can't drive a Lexus, or drink frappaccinos daily? Seriously, is it that dismal? If so, I'd gladly give a few pennies to those needy souls. Really, they all develop new drugs and technology? I thought mainly they wrote scripts and complained about malpractice. You've obviously elevated these people based on their relation to your daughter who, George Carlin be doomed, must be a genius. Of course I utilize Doctors and Lawyers and welcome their expertise. I agree that what they know, I a lot of the time do not. I will agree that they should probably, given qualifieable measures, be compensated more than what I make. I will not, though, concede that they are worth more than what they get (which keeps them in the upper part of the middle class at very least), and I will argue to the very end that they receive these monies right out of the shoot, never having to qualify again after receiving their degrees. Of course the best of them improve daily, and seek education beyond what is required, but come on, even the worst of them sees more income than most of us. Gosh is everyone dealing with budget cuts? It hadn't occured to me. How many of those budget cuts come attached to the safety of the community? Fire/police are not asking to make more money, (though because the city cannot bargain in good faith fire is owed 1%, which they will gladly give back), they are asking to have enough personnel to provide services which the City of Oklahoma City promises every citizen.

[Patrick]

Patrick,

Easy man. Lots of veterans and service men and women who may be involved in what you interpret as "unjust" warfare so as to provide themselves with an education, or because they simply feel compelled as a patriot, can hear you. Lets all just keep them in mind when we feel the very impulsive desire to rant on this thread and make a point, or miss one, whichever you choose.

I keep them in mind everyday, everytime I see large groups of them
coming through our doors at the VA completely screwed up, and unable to work because of their PTSD. Many held normal lives before they were sent into harms way, when they didn't have to be. Now instead
of getting the opportunity to become something in life they get to sit in daytreatment programs, on psychiatry inpatient units, and in constant fear and with emotionally traumatic scars that will leave them disabled for the rest of their lives. If that's the risk we take, I think taking out student loans inthe smarter alternative. I don't have a problem with folks serving in
the miltary, and I commend them, but it isn't all rosey like the recruiter would have you believe.

[Patrick]

MGE1977, it's obvious you have no clue about the
medical profession.

So really, you think all doctors do is sit around all day and write scripts and complain about malpractice? Have you ever hung out with a surgeon, an Ob-Gyn, an ICU doc, a hospitalist, etc.? Not all of our work is in an outpatient
clinic. In fact most is responding to emergencies in the ICU, OR, or ER. Having a life in your hand is extremely stressful, regardless of how competent you are.

And to say we went into this for the money! Lol! There are a lot easier ways to make a fortune wihout selling out 15years of your life training. Do you even have any clue the type of training and stress it takes to be a brain surgeon? You mention Panera, well same thing could be said about the police and Dunkin Donuts. Hmmmm.....I'm a doc and have a beat up 1993 Nissan sentra, and don't have the money to get coffee
from starbucks....I'm lucky to be making my $1200 a month house
payment and m $2200 a month student loan payment, all of which I'll be paying for the next 30 years.

So who do you think should make more than a doctor or lawyer? A wal-mart checker with a GED?

And you're wrong if you think docs make good money right out of the
shoot. Like with any business, it takes years to build up a referral base and most docs don't even break even the first few years. That's on top of having to pay back $200k-500k in student loans. So what do you think a doc is worth, especially someone with the expertise of a heart surgeon, a trauma physician, a neurosurgeon, an ER physician, folks that spent 15 years in training to get where they're at?

[Patrick]

For the record, I'm a doctor and I make about $9 an hour
if you calculate by all of the hours I work. My dad makes
more stocking shelves at Wal-Mart....yup, I'm really in this for
the money!

[flintysooner]

OKC officials address MAPS' impact on public safety

11.12.2009

[MGE1977]

Yeah, war is hell right. But anyway lets pass judgement on why someone might want to serve. Signing up for the army to get your bills paid is silly. At least they have your condolences and sentimentality when they come into the VA. Hey maybe you can counsel them on what they should have done, see where that gets ya.

[kevinpate]

OKC officials address MAPS' impact on public safety

11.12.2009

However you feel about MAPs3, might we be able to agree that having a former police officer (current DA) and a former fire chief on hand with the mayor to wax poetic on how MAPS 3 can help fund public safety via application of use taxes (not on the ballot nor in the non-binding resolution) just seems, well, like a tall cool glass from a giant pitcher of Kool-Aid?

[MGE1977]

So you make 9 dollars and hour? Huh? Whatever gets you to sleep at night.

As to the article brought to light by flinty:

Nice, the mayor with the aid of two former blue collars who lend credence to his pleas to the everyman, will graciously allow public safety the usage tax. Here is the deal: Mick is being cornered by his money man who wants this to pass. The money is unhappy to have such a close margin of support for MIII. Mick is now in the precarious position of getting public safety on board with the passage of MIII because his money says so, look to who employs him in the private sector. The deal is all contingent upon the implementation and then use of MIII. Without it public safety is stuck with nothing. Public safety shouldn't groan because they already have 3/4 cent sales tax directed at them exclusively, this should be a slam dunk, wait a minute....Public safety does not get the 3/4 cent sales tax exclusively, (which was voted on and on which the city brags as being a very rare place to live that provides such), and MIII is a very close race. Here it is Thunder elite - rejected at the buzzer, no goaltending, no foul, just a poor shot....

[Doug Loudenback]

I've posted the city's press release, together with a few comments, here: http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...tml#post270010

The city's proposal will apparently be considered by the Firefighter's Union and the FOP at meetings this evening.

[MGE1977]

Yeah, war is hell right. But anyway lets pass judgement on why someone might want to serve. Signing up for the army to get your bills paid is silly. At least they have your condolences and sentimentality when they come into the VA. Hey maybe you can counsel them on what they should have done, see where that gets ya.

[MGE1977]

Sorry to send that last one a second time. It got away from me.

[betts]

Public safety shouldn't groan because they already have 3/4 cent sales tax directed at them exclusively, this should be a slam dunk, wait a minute....Public safety does not get the 3/4 cent sales tax exclusively, (which was voted on.....

Again, I'm looking for the hard data that proves that public safety is not getting this sales tax in it's entirety. I have yet to see the link. Not saying it's not true, just that all we hear are rumors and innuendos.

[iron76hd]

Okay, so getting an education is a poor decision. Yup, that comment gains you a lot of credibility around here. And we should all go join the military just so we can pay for college, at the risk of losing our life, fighting for an unjust war, and the good chance of developing severe PTSD which will lead us to permanent disability for the rest of our lives. All this for the govt "helping" pay for our education....and the govt only helps with the first 4 years after you serve. After that, if we want an advanced degree we again can plan on going in debt.

Wow!!! Credibility!!??? Moving into a whole new thread...One that MANY Americans differ from.. an unjust war...

You sound just like the pathetic college punks that spit on many veteran which included some of my family at air ports after returning from Vietnam...

Yikes I'd be careful about opening up that can Patty....I'd be happy to spar on that issue but it will get ugly real quick and the rest on this site don't need to read it...

[MGE1977]

Betts,

With all due respect, shouldn't basic arithmatic and logic suffice? 75 percent of 1 cent times the number of citizens paying for taxable items. If "X" number of pennies are made in 1 day for goods sold in OKC public safety should make 75% of said pennies. Then take that number and multiply by 365 (generally accepted number of days/year on this planet). What you will come up with is a surplus. It should always be public safety's money when they need it. Don't get me wrong, lets share the wealth when they don't, but it should be there because the citizens voted it that way. Why should the city cut back public safety? The citizens already bought it.

[betts]

Sorry, your explanation of basic logic and arithmetic doesn't follow for me. What I'd like to see is the police and fire department's annual budgets, including all benefits. Then, we need to look at the sales taxes collected annually since the .75 cent tax was enacted, and compute what portion of the actual annual sales tax goes to police and firemen. We would then have to know if a certain portion of the general fund independent of the dedicated sales tax is definitely allocated to police and fire, and, if so, add it and the collected sales tax together. If the sum of those two numbers is greater than the annual budget, then one could be suspicious that there's some redirecting of funds going on. However, even then, it would only be a suspicion, not fact. I'd like to see facts, or at least reasonable hard data supportive of the suspicion. Again, not saying it isn't happening, simply saying it's all innuendo at this point in time.

[Midtowner]

I have a question Mid. Which ballot are you referring to being illegal and unconstitutional?

The Maps III ballot, insofar as it does not specifically identify the projects intended to be built. There is a constitutional requirement that this be done. If you look back earlier in this thread, I hashed through it all (at least once). Doug Loudenback's blog also discusses the idea.

It's been a bit of a long day, so I pray you'll excuse me if I just ask that you scour this thread instead of me

[iron76hd]

I

keep them in mind everyday, everytime I see large groups of them
coming through our doors at the VA completely screwed up, and unable to work because of their PTSD. Many held normal lives before they were sent into harms way, when they didn't have to be. Now instead
of getting the opportunity to become something in life they get to sit in daytreatment programs, on psychiatry inpatient units, and in constant fear and with emotionally traumatic scars that will leave them disabled for the rest of their lives. If that's the risk we take, I think taking out student loans inthe smarter alternative. I don't have a problem with folks serving in
the miltary, and I commend them, but it isn't all rosey like the recruiter would have you believe.

Don't minimize their sacrifices. Their choice to serve in the Military preserves the very way of life you enjoy. The way of life that allows you to spout off at the mouth openly without any consequences. In other countries, the same open opinion may result in your arrest or death.

Your minimizing their choice to serve makes me want to puke. I have always maintained that I wish our country had a policy like Israel where EVERY citizen has to serve in the military. That would ensure that All citizens value our Military and understand what it's all about. I know you'd definitely benefit from such service. It'd humble you a little you'd not make the comment "Now instead
of getting the opportunity to become something in life" so freely. You'd understand they've done something more noble than you'll EVER do.

[iron76hd]

Sorry, your explanation of basic logic and arithmetic doesn't follow for me. What I'd like to see is the police and fire department's annual budgets, including all benefits.

We're tired of "silver" spoon feeding you Betts. Put some of that high dollar education to work and research the information.

It's all on the cities website or available on the web. If you want more detail get with your Council person. Otherwise quit pretending to care..Geez

[betts]

I don't see that Patrick is minimizing their sacrifices. I don't necessarily think it's ignoble to choose not to serve, and it is a tragedy every time a life is lost, either through death or psychiatric disorder. Military service is, and should be, a personal choice, unless our nation is threated directly by invasion or World War, IMO. I do like Obama's suggestion of two years of national service, but think it could be satisfied by the Peace Corps, Teach for America, creation of a WPA type organization, in addition to military service. My son serves in the military and I'm very proud of him, but I never have a day free of worry about him. Families pay a high price too. Now, we should probably get back to topic.

[betts]

We're tired of "silver" spoon feeding you Betts. Put some of that high dollar education to work and research the information.

It's all on the cities website or available on the web. If you want more detail get with your Council person. Otherwise quit pretending to care..Geez

I've already made up my mind about how I'm voting. You are trying to convince me to vote otherwise. So, if you choose not to provide the data in support of your assertions, that's your choice. If there is a vote regarding additional funds for policemen and firemen, I guarantee you I will do the research. Right now, I see it as a separate issue, and it's not on the ballot.

[iron76hd]

I don't see that Patrick is minimizing their sacrifices.

Really? Pass his point of view onto your son and see how he feels. Shame on you Mom...Is Patty your son?

[betts]

Really? Pass his point of view onto your son and see how he feels. Shame on you Mom...Is Patty your son?

Is Patrick in Baghdad? Unless he is, he's not my son. My son would probably understand his point of view, as he's a thoughtful, rational individual who is willing to see all sides of a discussion.