Cops Union or Someone Doing anti-MAPS Push Poll

[betts]

Unless it's built in a vacuum, which one could conceivably call the current surrounds, the park will be the front lawn for "something". What that something is is really rather immaterial, since it will be an urban open space. The implication that it is being planned to benefit a person or corporation specifically is the usual "class" paranoia we see from some people, IMO. There won't be a fence around it nor will admission be charged. We could build almost anything there and it would be an improvement on what is currently there, although a convention center would not be my first choice.

[kevinpate]

I thought it was gonna be the back yard for Wiley Post Park, with a bridge to encourage south siders to slip across the river every once and a while?

[Larry OKC]

I thought it was gonna be the back yard for Wiley Post Park, with a bridge to encourage south siders to slip across the river every once and a while?

True, the backyard for one thing is the front yard of another

[jbrown84]

Also, according to the Mayor, the Cox Convention Center isn't really a Convention Center either. It is an arena that we added some large rooms around.

All the more reason to build a real one.

May depend on what your definition of "near" is. True, it is not adjacent to Devon, but is nearby. According to the plans the Park is only one block away from the Myriad Gardens which IS adjacent to Devon. So, essentially, the park is 2 blocks away from Devon?

The Myriad Gardens could be called a "front yard for Devon", but they are paying for those much-needed upgrades. The Gardens are two blocks by two blocks (a superblock), so that would place the central park three blocks away. I don't see anyway that could be criticized as a "just a front yard for Devon".

Do you have any links on that? One might presume that "all over the City" would include the east side, but has anything specifically saying that east side locations are a definite? Have the new sidewalks in MAPS 3 been announced? Which new trails in MAPS 3 are located in the east side? And lastly, have they announced the locations of the Aquatic Centers yet? The City's MAPS 3 website (City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing) only has this generic location(s):

The Katy Trail is located in the NE section of the city. It may be complete already. I'm not sure, but it is part of OKC Trails which are set to be completed through MAPS3. You are correct that no specifics have been given about locations of sidewalks and aquatic centers, but the idea that this section of the city will be ignored isn't backed with facts or specifics either--it's just fear mongering and insulting assumptions. That area has a city council member. There's no chance it will be overlooked for improvements.

[andy157]

All the more reason to build a real one.



The Myriad Gardens could be called a "front yard for Devon", but they are paying for those much-needed upgrades. The Gardens are two blocks by two blocks (a superblock), so that would place the central park three blocks away. I don't see anyway that could be criticized as a "just a front yard for Devon".



The Katy Trail is located in the NE section of the city. It may be complete already. I'm not sure, but it is part of OKC Trails which are set to be completed through MAPS3. You are correct that no specifics have been given about locations of sidewalks and aquatic centers, but the idea that this section of the city will be ignored isn't backed with facts or specifics either--it's just fear mongering and insulting assumptions. That area has a city council member. There's no chance it will be overlooked for improvements.

What makes you think Devon is paying for the upgrades to the Myriad Gardens?

[jbrown84]

What makes you think Devon is paying for the upgrades to the Myriad Gardens?

They are being paid for by the Devon TIF, which Nichols kindly allowed to be used on the Gardens and the downtown streetscapes.

[Larry OKC]

What makes you think Devon is paying for the upgrades to the Myriad Gardens?

Oklahoma City's Myriad Gardens to receive makeover (10/9/09)
BY STEVE LACKMEYER

With construction of the new headquarters set at $750 million, Nichols surprised many downtown observers by asking that the tax increment financing (TIF) proceeds from the project not be used for amenities for the corporate campus, but rather to improve the surrounding downtown neighborhood.

The Myriad Gardens is the biggest single beneficiary of the TIF, with $35 million dedicated to making it a people place by adding amenities requested by residents.

As pointed out in the article, Devon isn't paying for it per se, but instead of the TIF money being put back into their property, they are insisting it be used for the neighborhood. In that since it is a "gift", but it is a gift that is going to cost. Devon is providing a line of credit (borrowed money that has to be repaid, with interest) to the City so construction on the streetscapes etc., can begin now. From what I understand on it, normally, TIFs have to wait until after completion (after their tower is built). The TIF itself is borrowed money that is repaid through the anticipated increase in property values. So it looks like we are borrowing the money twice. Now that may be a wash, because it is probably cheaper to do the construction etc sooner rather than later.

[andy157]

They are being paid for by the Devon TIF, which Nichols kindly allowed to be used on the Gardens and the downtown streetscapes.

Are you serious? You have got to be kidding me. Devons TIF? Where do you think Devon got their TIF? Who do you think is paying for Devons TIF? Did Devon front the City the money for his TIF, I believe he did, and if I'm not mistaken he kindly loaned the money to be paid back with interest.

Since we are on the subjects regarding MAPS and TIF money. I have a question, maybe you can help. If the previous MAPS projects, like the library for example, did so much to raise property values in Downtown OKC by enhancing, and bringing back to life a once blighted part of our City. A part of our City that private business and developers had long given up on. However, because of MAPS, those same people are now waiting in line to poor their money into Downtown.

If thats all true, then how did the area next door to the library qualify for TIF money in the first place? Maybe I misunderstood the qualifications definition of an area in order to receive TIF money.

[jbrown84]

I'm not sure what you're so worked up about. TIF's are a whole other issue, but the fact is that there's a TIF setup for the Devon project that Nichols could have kept for his own company's use, but did not.

[andy157]

I'm not sure what you're so worked up about. TIF's are a whole other issue, but the fact is that there's a TIF setup for the Devon project that Nichols could have kept for his own company's use, but did not.

That does not surprise me. Your right, I should just be happy of the fact that Mr. Nichols was kind enough to let us spend our money, on what he wanted it spent on. What was I thinking?

[flintysooner]

That does not surprise me. Your right, I should just be happy of the fact that Mr. Nichols was kind enough to let us spend our money, on what he wanted it spent on. What was I thinking?

I think you were probably thinking you would prefer the company to relocate to Houston.

[andy157]

I think you were probably thinking you would prefer the company to relocate to Houston.

I'm positive that you don't have a clue as to what I'm thinking.

[flintysooner]

I'm positive that you don't have a clue as to what I'm thinking.

Sorry, you're certainly correct. It is my impression from reading your posts that you are less than enthusiastic about business.

[andy157]

Sorry, you're certainly correct. It is my impression from reading your posts that you are less than enthusiastic about business.

Sorry if my post left you with that impression. It's not that I am less than enthusiastic about business at all. However, I am less than enthusiastic about not calling B.S. on a statement being made that claims Devon is paying for the upgrades to the Myriad Gardens.

I have nothing against Devon, or Nichols, but to make it sound as though he pulled $35,000,000. out of his pocket, and out of the goodness of his heart is very misleading. Maybe misinformed would be nicer, I guess I should allow them the benefit of doubt.

P.S. Thank you Mr. Nichols for not re-locating your company to, and building Devons 50 story tower in Houston.

[Popsy]

In my opinion Andy, you are not thinking at all. All over the country TIFs are used to pay for the infrastructure on a project, thus offsetting the cost to the builder but Mr. Nichols chose to have that money go to the benefit of OKC instead. I suppose he could have used the TIF funds for the infrastructure and then donated what he saved there back to the city for the improvements that are being made to the city and it would be easier for you to appreciate what he has done. I greatly appreciate Mr. Nichols efforts and applaud them while finding nothing to applaud fire and police for in trying to feather their own nest at the expense of the public good.

[andy157]

In my opinion Andy, you are not thinking at all. All over the country TIFs are used to pay for the infrastructure on a project, thus offsetting the cost to the builder but Mr. Nichols chose to have that money go to the benefit of OKC instead. I suppose he could have used the TIF funds for the infrastructure and then donated what he saved there back to the city for the improvements that are being made to the city and it would be easier for you to appreciate what he has done. I greatly appreciate Mr. Nichols efforts and applaud them while finding nothing to applaud fire and police for in trying to feather their own nest at the expense of the public good.

I am very glad he gave us back our money, to be used to improve our town, instead of him using our money, to improve his building.

[andy157]

In my opinion Andy, you are not thinking at all. All over the country TIFs are used to pay for the infrastructure on a project, thus offsetting the cost to the builder but Mr. Nichols chose to have that money go to the benefit of OKC instead. I suppose he could have used the TIF funds for the infrastructure and then donated what he saved there back to the city for the improvements that are being made to the city and it would be easier for you to appreciate what he has done. I greatly appreciate Mr. Nichols efforts and applaud them while finding nothing to applaud fire and police for in trying to feather their own nest at the expense of the public good.

I almost forgot to ask, are the Police and Fire the only 2 you have a problem with feathering their nest at the expense of such a good public?

[Patrick]

Truth is it was to become "his" money and he could've kept it for "himself" and not given a damn about the local community.

[Popsy]

Andy, in response to your first statement I would say that if you only respond with mindless drivel I wasted my time and the time of others that might read it.

As to your question I would say that should it become evident that someone else feathered their nest due to insider information on a city project I would have a big problem there also.

I would also add that I do have empathy with firefighters that have their vacations cancelled. It is not good city management to do it. I have no way of knowing if fire and law enforcement are understaffed as I have not heard both sides of the story. Like many others here I do find it unsavory that law enforcement and fire are trying to bring down improvement of the city as their bargaining chip in contract negotiations. Nothing would please me more to see the end of it.

[andy157]

Truth is it was to become "his" money and he could've kept it for "himself" and not given a damn about the local community.

Tell me Patrick, how was it going to become "his" money. For the money to become his, did someone have to give it to him? Who would the money belong to if it was never to become his money?

[andy157]

Andy, in response to your first statement I would say that if you only respond with mindless drivel I wasted my time and the time of others that might read it.

As to your question I would say that should it become evident that someone else feathered their nest due to insider information on a city project I would have a big problem there also.

I would also add that I do have empathy with firefighters that have their vacations cancelled. It is not good city management to do it. I have no way of knowing if fire and law enforcement are understaffed as I have not heard both sides of the story. Like many others here I do find it unsavory that law enforcement and fire are trying to bring down improvement of the city as their bargaining chip in contract negotiations. Nothing would please me more to see the end of it.

You define mindless drivel quite well.

[iron76hd]

Andy, in response to your first statement I would say that if you only respond with mindless drivel I wasted my time and the time of others that might read it.

ohhh geezzz.. I laughed...Andy...your full of mindless drivel!!

I

am very glad he gave us back our money, to be used to improve our town, instead of him using our money, to improve his building.

Me too. Thank you, sir.

[Rover]

Please don't attack poor Andy. It is apparent he lacks understanding of these basic issues. He appears to be business challenged. It's not fair to pick on him.

[Wambo36]

Please don't attack poor Andy. It is apparent he lacks understanding of these basic issues. He appears to be business challenged. It's not fair to pick on him.

What a condescending ass. Please don''t assume you know any more about the goings on of this citys government or their everyday dealings and business model than Andy. He has been dealing with them for years. For many years on a very personal level. He has worked with everyone from the mayor, city manager and council,to the business people who push their buttons behind the scenes. He tried to work with them in a fair and honest way, when that was his job, and got stonewalled almost every time. He has beaten them in arbitration or district court more times than they care to admit. So unless you can match his record of dedication and service to the city and it's citizens please keep your condescending remarks to a minimum. Your character is showing.

[jbrown84]

I think you were probably thinking you would prefer the company to relocate to Houston.

Touche!

However, I am less than enthusiastic about not calling B.S. on a statement being made that claims Devon is paying for the upgrades to the Myriad Gardens.

Basically what you are saying is you don't like TIFs. That's why I said that's a whole other issue. Otherwise, I think my stance has already been covered by Popsy and Patrick.

Tell me Patrick, how was it going to become "his" money. For the money to become his, did someone have to give it to him? Who would the money belong to if it was never to become his money?

I know better than to think that you don't really understand this. You just want us to spell it out for some reason.

1) It's true that there's a TIF on this project, just like elsewhere in this city and in hundreds of other cities.

2) It's true that companies building within a TIF zone would have that money be applied to their project and the infrastructure directly tied to it.

3) It's true that Nichols is the CEO of Devon Energy

4) It follows that as the CEO, this money was "his" to use as he saw fit, but he didn't keep it for "himself" by using it on his project, but rather gave it over to be used to revamp the entire business district as well as a public parkland.


If you have an issue with TIFs, bring it up in another thread or one of the ones we've had in the past. All money can be tracked back to taxpayers at some point, whether it be through taxes or things we buy. All this is semantics really, and it's started with me trying to clear up that the Myriad Gardens is NOT a MAPS 3 project in any way.